I've had my troubles,i saw a tee shirt once that said "Hell is other People"....indeed it can be.
Marriage-Divorce-Remarriage is not Adultery
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I've had my troubles,i saw a tee shirt once that said "Hell is other People"....indeed it can be.
I hear your hurts and wounds Strat. I am sorry it happened to you. But remember, not all people are "hell", there are some wonderful and thoughtful people out there that would never hurt and wound you as others may have in the past. Please don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
And also remember, the human race is sick. The Church also, it's like a hospital, filled with sick sinners. There exists not a single human who has 100% perfect mental health. People will at times let you down, it's part of the fall of man and sin. But do know my friend, there are a lot of people who sincerely love you and care about you.
Keep your eyes on the Doctor(Jesus) and not always on the Patients(sinners). Jesus is the only One who will treat you with perfection, and on the day you came to Christ by faith, you became His child and Bride.
God bless.
Greetings frm sunny Texas,
I am finishing up the study on the four types and kinds of marriages found in the first century--There is only one that comes close to ours of today and that is marriage by nobility. It actually has paperwork of sorts but it is governed not by the church but by the civil government.
Richard
I am finishing up the study on the four types and kinds of marriages found in the first century--There is only one that comes close to ours of today and that is marriage by nobility. It actually has paperwork of sorts but it is governed not by the church but by the civil government.
Richard
This is not about when marriage goes right but when it goes wrong,some contend that marriage if and when it becomes a hell it is a hell one is trapped in until they die,in a sense a bad marriage becomes an unpardonable sin in this life and that death is the only escape.
The subject of marriage is often discussed based on the personal experiences of those in the discussion...to those with good marriages all marriages are good...to those who had problems in their marriage but worked them out all problems in all marriages can be worked out...for obvious reasons neither one is correct...projecting one's own personal experience on another is almost always a mistake in regard to helping them when their experience is different.
There are those who say that the way to make a bad marriage good is for one to be the slave of the other,this of course assumes that the other will cave in to this tsunami of love and see the light,it can happen for some so this veiw has some merit.
There are those who think that marriage is all about overlooking faults,that is only half the issue...and the obligation to treat one's spouse with kindness is usually not mentioned except as a response to abuse,or put another way it is abuse that should trigger kindness rather than kindness being the norm or constant state and obligation of the marriage.
Since feminism has enterd the Church there are those who claim that most problems in marriages are caused by men..if a woman won't have sex with her husband it is because he has done or not done something,sex becomes a reward for submission and behaviour that has been approved of and accepted by the woman and will occur on the third Tuesday of every 4th month providing that no violations occur in between,likewise the refusal of sex is his just due for his failure to perform to her standards...he on the other hand cannot have any standards for her,he is to accept her just as she is in whatever state she chooses to be in....women initiate divorce more often than men do and the courts treat them as the victims and give them everything.
The ones who say a man should love his wife like Christ loved the church have never said anything about how Christ loves the Church except that he gave his life for it which he did and any man who is a man would be willing to risk his life for his wife should the need arise,however the relationship between Christ and his Church is one of standards and expectations....does jesus accept any kind of behaviour we choose to give him ? are there never any consequences for our behaviour ? can we bargain with Jesus and manipulate him to get what we want ?....this applies to both men and women....the absence of any prohibition or consequences for behaviour is in fact a sanctioning and support of that behaviour.....God does not deal with man that way.
I have even heard that the Bible gives no direct command to women to love their husbands so if they don't its ok,and that a woman will follow a "Godly" man....there is no such guarantee in the Bible and certainly none in modern feminist America.
The discussion also includes men and their often loathsome behaviour,from porn addictions,abuse and a a roving eye men certainly have their share of the blame in marriages "Christian" men who provide no leadership or discipleship in their home and their wives take the kids to Church while he sits home in his BVD's or Fruit of the Looms and pays homage to his real gods,the NFL,NBA and NASCAR....Christmas and Easter is good enough...but then they have games on that day to so it's a real struggle.
Marriage is like Fire and Water...your best friend or your worst enemy.
The subject of marriage is often discussed based on the personal experiences of those in the discussion...to those with good marriages all marriages are good...to those who had problems in their marriage but worked them out all problems in all marriages can be worked out...for obvious reasons neither one is correct...projecting one's own personal experience on another is almost always a mistake in regard to helping them when their experience is different.
There are those who say that the way to make a bad marriage good is for one to be the slave of the other,this of course assumes that the other will cave in to this tsunami of love and see the light,it can happen for some so this veiw has some merit.
There are those who think that marriage is all about overlooking faults,that is only half the issue...and the obligation to treat one's spouse with kindness is usually not mentioned except as a response to abuse,or put another way it is abuse that should trigger kindness rather than kindness being the norm or constant state and obligation of the marriage.
Since feminism has enterd the Church there are those who claim that most problems in marriages are caused by men..if a woman won't have sex with her husband it is because he has done or not done something,sex becomes a reward for submission and behaviour that has been approved of and accepted by the woman and will occur on the third Tuesday of every 4th month providing that no violations occur in between,likewise the refusal of sex is his just due for his failure to perform to her standards...he on the other hand cannot have any standards for her,he is to accept her just as she is in whatever state she chooses to be in....women initiate divorce more often than men do and the courts treat them as the victims and give them everything.
The ones who say a man should love his wife like Christ loved the church have never said anything about how Christ loves the Church except that he gave his life for it which he did and any man who is a man would be willing to risk his life for his wife should the need arise,however the relationship between Christ and his Church is one of standards and expectations....does jesus accept any kind of behaviour we choose to give him ? are there never any consequences for our behaviour ? can we bargain with Jesus and manipulate him to get what we want ?....this applies to both men and women....the absence of any prohibition or consequences for behaviour is in fact a sanctioning and support of that behaviour.....God does not deal with man that way.
I have even heard that the Bible gives no direct command to women to love their husbands so if they don't its ok,and that a woman will follow a "Godly" man....there is no such guarantee in the Bible and certainly none in modern feminist America.
The discussion also includes men and their often loathsome behaviour,from porn addictions,abuse and a a roving eye men certainly have their share of the blame in marriages "Christian" men who provide no leadership or discipleship in their home and their wives take the kids to Church while he sits home in his BVD's or Fruit of the Looms and pays homage to his real gods,the NFL,NBA and NASCAR....Christmas and Easter is good enough...but then they have games on that day to so it's a real struggle.
Marriage is like Fire and Water...your best friend or your worst enemy.
We don't choose who our parents are...yet we never divorce our parents. We don't choose our brothers and sisters...yet we do not divorce them when we have a conflict.
When we make vows before the Lord to be faithful onto death....that is what we are then expected to do. Our spouse becomes a part of us.
There is another catagory to those advocating remaining unmarried after divorce...God's word.
Hi Logabe,
I'm very interested in what you've said here. Would you help me out with a couple of questions?
Where in the Bible was Israel remarried after her divorce from God?
If Jesus' intent is to say you have to give a writ of divorcement (interestingly, apostasiou in the LXX), and not just toss you wife out, what about this exception for fornication? This gives rise to a couple of questions for me. Why would fornication not require an divorce cert?
And if fornication and divorce are technically different things, one only occuring with married people, one only occuring with unmarried people, how is it that she commit fornication when married?
OK, even as I write the question, the answer occurs to me. That adultery should be considered as a subset of fornication. That is, while all adultery is fornication (porneia), but not all fornication is adultery. Is that how you would answer?
Love in Christ,
Mark
Thanks for responding....without adressing a single point i made.
If there is no penalty or consequence for adultery then in a practical sense it is allowed,it is not possible to say that something is wrong,then say there is no penalty for doing it...if a man or woman can be unfaithful and keep their spouse then where is the penalty and how is it wrong ? foregiveness ? sure,but where are we told that forgiveness eliminates penalty...what weight does a speed limit sign carry if there is no penalty for breaking it,after payment is made you are free to go and speed no more.... a subject i am quite familiar with.
You mentioned parents and siblings,two relationships that have nothing or very little to do with marriage,you mentioned vows and that our spouse is part of us,never said anything about that either.I have responded to more of the content of your post than you have to mine,pious platitudes are not sufficient but are usually offered when practical responses to real world problems are needed but cannot be given for various and assorted reasons.....thanks again.
After some thought please allow me to clarify in regard to parents and siblings,parents hopefully are married and siblings are the result of,again hopefully, married couples....but as i said before this is about marriage when it goes wrong,not right....the man and the woman,not the results of their union.
What GOD has joined let not man tear asunder. God has set us in families in the natural. We cannot dissolve this. Marriage is of God not men. The two become ONE flesh.
Families go wrong...and so do marriages. But we have a ministry of reconciliation. We are to gather not scatter.
Mark, greetings from sunny Texas,
you asked--Where in the Bible was Israel remarried after her divorce from God?
My observation--umm Now, God remarried on the day of Pentecost--Look at Romans 7:1-4
Hmm. what do you define as fornication?
THINGS THAT CAN BE CALLED "FORNICATION.“
[1] Immodest clothing {exposure enticing others}
[2] Pornography, Nudist Colony, R & X movies
[3] Flirting with others husbands and wives and enticing
[4] Strippers and watching them
[5] Filthy speech for immoral purposes
[6] Homosexuality
[7] Lusting with the eye
Matthew 19:9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife [ EXCEPT FOR FORNICATION]--------- {1-7 ABOVE} ********** and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
Here are just seven things listed as fornication and as reasons for a divorce—Jewish style\American style. Note that Adultery is not included. Why? No divorce for adultery.
Richard
Logabe, greetngsfrom sunny Texas,
It is refreshing to see that others also understand the passage of Romans 7:1-4
Episkopos, greetings from somewhat sunny Texas, you said
What GOD has joined let not man tear asunder. God has set us in families in the natural. We cannot dissolve this. Marriage is of God not men. The two become ONE flesh.
My observation--First-can or cannot covenants be broken? I would also point out--that you are taking the ideal out of Gen and attempting to place it in our lives today.
It does go into our lives today--but as the marriage ideal--not as any command. Think about when that ideal was given
In the garden--here is the only law or command given--Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
It has absolutely nothing to do with Marriage, Divorce and Remarriage not being Adultery.
We also has to start paying attention to whom is saying what when--esp in the garden --
Gen 2:23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
Are we totally and absolutely sure we want to take this text--given by man in the garden where there was no possibility of divorce, adultery or remarriage since there were only two people in it.
Now, you will have to help me out here--I cannot find any laws of God regulationg marriages, divorces and remarriages until the Jews are given the Mosaic law at Mt. sinai.
What I did find is an examination of God's Moral law of Sin and of Death--where Gen 2 and the Statement by Adam should be.
http://rgfheart.com/abs/moral/
But I did look at one huge human event--that forever changed the lives of men--And, that is the tower of babel.
God's moral law of sin and of death gives us this ideal of marriage--one man and one woman.
However as the people moved out from the incident at the tower of Babel--and as the nations began to develop--Whom did God have governing marriages and divorces and remarriages?
It could not be a law that did not exist--and it cannot be a law out of the garden that governed only marriages..
you stated
Families go wrong...and so do marriages. But we have a ministry of reconciliation. We are to gather not scatter.
My observation--none of us can gather when we use the take the scriptures out of context and use them as a four by four to hit folks up along side the head with the current teaching of MDR.
It is true that I PREFER RECONCILIATION over divorces...but we are to be like Christ--and practise forgiveness and forgetfulness. Neither of which most of us do well at all.
I watched an episode of Mythbusters where those two guys ended up on an island with nothing but duct tape. They used it for all of the things they needed to survive and to leave the island.
But I tell you that not even duct tape or God can repair a broken covenant--when one party wants it to stay broken.
Richard
you asked--Where in the Bible was Israel remarried after her divorce from God?
My observation--umm Now, God remarried on the day of Pentecost--Look at Romans 7:1-4
Hmm. what do you define as fornication?
THINGS THAT CAN BE CALLED "FORNICATION.“
[1] Immodest clothing {exposure enticing others}
[2] Pornography, Nudist Colony, R & X movies
[3] Flirting with others husbands and wives and enticing
[4] Strippers and watching them
[5] Filthy speech for immoral purposes
[6] Homosexuality
[7] Lusting with the eye
Matthew 19:9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife [ EXCEPT FOR FORNICATION]--------- {1-7 ABOVE} ********** and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
Here are just seven things listed as fornication and as reasons for a divorce—Jewish style\American style. Note that Adultery is not included. Why? No divorce for adultery.
Richard
Logabe, greetngsfrom sunny Texas,
It is refreshing to see that others also understand the passage of Romans 7:1-4
Episkopos, greetings from somewhat sunny Texas, you said
What GOD has joined let not man tear asunder. God has set us in families in the natural. We cannot dissolve this. Marriage is of God not men. The two become ONE flesh.
My observation--First-can or cannot covenants be broken? I would also point out--that you are taking the ideal out of Gen and attempting to place it in our lives today.
It does go into our lives today--but as the marriage ideal--not as any command. Think about when that ideal was given
In the garden--here is the only law or command given--Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
It has absolutely nothing to do with Marriage, Divorce and Remarriage not being Adultery.
We also has to start paying attention to whom is saying what when--esp in the garden --
Gen 2:23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
Are we totally and absolutely sure we want to take this text--given by man in the garden where there was no possibility of divorce, adultery or remarriage since there were only two people in it.
Now, you will have to help me out here--I cannot find any laws of God regulationg marriages, divorces and remarriages until the Jews are given the Mosaic law at Mt. sinai.
What I did find is an examination of God's Moral law of Sin and of Death--where Gen 2 and the Statement by Adam should be.
http://rgfheart.com/abs/moral/
But I did look at one huge human event--that forever changed the lives of men--And, that is the tower of babel.
God's moral law of sin and of death gives us this ideal of marriage--one man and one woman.
However as the people moved out from the incident at the tower of Babel--and as the nations began to develop--Whom did God have governing marriages and divorces and remarriages?
It could not be a law that did not exist--and it cannot be a law out of the garden that governed only marriages..
you stated
Families go wrong...and so do marriages. But we have a ministry of reconciliation. We are to gather not scatter.
My observation--none of us can gather when we use the take the scriptures out of context and use them as a four by four to hit folks up along side the head with the current teaching of MDR.
It is true that I PREFER RECONCILIATION over divorces...but we are to be like Christ--and practise forgiveness and forgetfulness. Neither of which most of us do well at all.
I watched an episode of Mythbusters where those two guys ended up on an island with nothing but duct tape. They used it for all of the things they needed to survive and to leave the island.
But I tell you that not even duct tape or God can repair a broken covenant--when one party wants it to stay broken.
Richard
More platitudes my friend,what does your"ministry of reconcilliation" do when one doesn't want to go along...marriage is a form of slavery and bondage in this life in that if you marry the wrong one it is the only mistake you can never be forgiven for....this slavery and bondage makes you a servant tro the whims of the most evil,wicked and vile thing on the planet....the human heart.
I beleive sexual infidelity breaks the marriage,i also beleive that marriage is a form of bondage and slavery in this life,people don't seem to understand the power God gives other people in your life...as a for instance we are told to not take a fellow christian to court if they commit fraud against us,my solution is to never do business with a fellow christian since he knows if he commits fraud against me there is nothing biblicaly i can do about it...why deal with people that have that much power.
Other people have free will and do things we have no control over,denying that is just denying reality and living in a fantasy.
We have the mind of Christ to discern what thoughts are of men and what is the perfect will of God. The flesh is limited to it's own sense of reality. But Jesus is raised from the dead. All things are possible in Christ, unbelief notwithstanding.
Greetings from sunny Texas,
It is not strange at all to see that in the first century the woman catches all of the drakah going the wrong way--
John 8:3-5 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? (KJV)
Consider that these Jews knew and understood the law--and, here they created an violation of the law. Again, it is just the woman.
Now, know what it takes to violate the law in order to be guilty of Adultery--
Yet perhaps we need to rethink then the test question here---Mat 19:3 The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?
and the answer--Mat 19:9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
Thayer says that adultery is to have unlawful sexual intercourse with another's wife.
Fornication.Porneia, pornos, porneuo, porna
[1] Porneia=Noun-definition: Illicit sexual intercourse {Vine}
[A] Illicit sexual intercourse in general, used metaphorically of Idol worship {Thayer}
[2] Pornos = Noun--definition: a man who indulges in fornication {Vine}.
[A] A man who prostitutes his body to another's lust for hire,
A male prostitute {Playgirl}
[3] Porneuo = Verb-- definition: to commit Fornication {Vine}
[a] To prostitute one's body to the lust of another; to give oneself to unlawful sexual intercourse {Pornography}
[4] porna = A woman who sells her body, for sexual lust.
English words translated & transliterated from these:
FORNICATION-UNCHASTITY-IMMORALITY- PORNOGRAPHY
Places where fornication, unchastity or immorality is distinguished from adultery or homosexuality:
Matt 15:9 Mark 7:21 I Cor 6:9 Heb 13:4
Places where fornication is used to denote sexual intercourse: I Cor 6:13 I Cor 6:18 Jn 8:41
Places where they are used of all immorality including adultery and homosexuals:
Acts 15:20, 29 I Cor 7:2 Acts 21:25 2 Cor 12:21
It is not strange at all to see that in the first century the woman catches all of the drakah going the wrong way--
John 8:3-5 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? (KJV)
Consider that these Jews knew and understood the law--and, here they created an violation of the law. Again, it is just the woman.
Now, know what it takes to violate the law in order to be guilty of Adultery--
Yet perhaps we need to rethink then the test question here---Mat 19:3 The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?
and the answer--Mat 19:9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
Thayer says that adultery is to have unlawful sexual intercourse with another's wife.
Fornication.Porneia, pornos, porneuo, porna
[1] Porneia=Noun-definition: Illicit sexual intercourse {Vine}
[A] Illicit sexual intercourse in general, used metaphorically of Idol worship {Thayer}
[2] Pornos = Noun--definition: a man who indulges in fornication {Vine}.
[A] A man who prostitutes his body to another's lust for hire,
A male prostitute {Playgirl}
[3] Porneuo = Verb-- definition: to commit Fornication {Vine}
[a] To prostitute one's body to the lust of another; to give oneself to unlawful sexual intercourse {Pornography}
[4] porna = A woman who sells her body, for sexual lust.
English words translated & transliterated from these:
FORNICATION-UNCHASTITY-IMMORALITY- PORNOGRAPHY
Places where fornication, unchastity or immorality is distinguished from adultery or homosexuality:
Matt 15:9 Mark 7:21 I Cor 6:9 Heb 13:4
Places where fornication is used to denote sexual intercourse: I Cor 6:13 I Cor 6:18 Jn 8:41
Places where they are used of all immorality including adultery and homosexuals:
Acts 15:20, 29 I Cor 7:2 Acts 21:25 2 Cor 12:21
What I have always found: when sincere Christians disagree they use the same scriptural words but with different means. Most of the time the author goes a long way in defining the mean, but Christians like to have “proof text scriptures” with no explanations and alternatives to the meaning of the words.
Matt. 5: [sup]31[/sup] “It has been said, ‘Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.’[sup][f][/sup] [sup]32[/sup] But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, makes her the victim of adultery, and anyone who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
The words we need to look at are:
Marriage
Adultery
Divorce
What is marriage? Every society on earth has a distinction between an unmarried couple and a married couple, so does society define marriage? Where does scripture define marriage or does it?
From scripture I (a man) know how to treat a woman I am married to and how to treat a woman I am not married to, so is there any in-between type relationship?
What is the relationship between sexual intercourse and marriage according to scripture?
What is adultery? Does the Bible definitely have different means or does it have one meaning used in different ways?
What is divorce? Does divorce even exist? Can a married couple actually divorce?
Matt. 5: [sup]31[/sup] “It has been said, ‘Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.’[sup][f][/sup] [sup]32[/sup] But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, makes her the victim of adultery, and anyone who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
The words we need to look at are:
Marriage
Adultery
Divorce
What is marriage? Every society on earth has a distinction between an unmarried couple and a married couple, so does society define marriage? Where does scripture define marriage or does it?
From scripture I (a man) know how to treat a woman I am married to and how to treat a woman I am not married to, so is there any in-between type relationship?
What is the relationship between sexual intercourse and marriage according to scripture?
What is adultery? Does the Bible definitely have different means or does it have one meaning used in different ways?
What is divorce? Does divorce even exist? Can a married couple actually divorce?
Bling, greetings in Christ from stormy Texas
I agree "proof text scriptures" are a nice thing to have--but alas I have found "great disagreement as to which "proof text scriptures" are acceptable" Sortof depends on what one is attempting to prove
Matt. 5: 31 “It has been said, ‘Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.’[f] 32 But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, makes her the victim of adultery, and anyone who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
Mat 5:31 It(G1161) hath been said,G4483 WhosoeverG3739 G302 shall put awayG630 hisG848 wife,G1135 let him giveG1325 herG846 a writing of divorcement:G647
Mat 5:32 ButG1161 IG1473 sayG3004 unto you,G5213 ThatG3754 whosoeverG3739 G302 shall put awayG630 hisG848 wife,G1135 saving forG3924 the causeG3056 of fornication,G4202 causethG4160 herG846 to commit adultery:G3429 andG2532 whosoeverG3739 G1437 shall marryG1060 her that is divorcedG630 committeth adultery.G3429
The translation you used is not responsibly accurate to the text itself. It is not "divorce" which puts a particular mind picture in our mind i.e. how we have developed and how we currently use the word divorce.
The Word is "put away" and from the Hebrew constitutes only one part of the two parts needed for a divorce--our word. Shortcuts are not always helpful.
In all the ten times or so that Jesus uses "apoluo" put away only in verse 32 the second time apoluo is used it is translated as divorced.
The words we need to look at are:
Marriage
God's Moral law of sin and of death defines marriage. This law is given to all men at birth--And from the beginning man knows the ideal--Gen 2:23 The man-person said, "At last! This is bone from my bones and flesh from my flesh. She is to be called Woman [Hebrew: ishah], because she was taken out of Man [Hebrew: ish]."
Gen 2:24 This is why a man is to leave his father and mother and stick with his wife, and they are to be one flesh.
Adultery
Again, from God's moral law of sin and of death--Man knew that having sex with someone married to someone else was wrong. Joseph is an example that comes to mind.
And an brief examiniation of fornication\adultery can be found here
http://rgfheart.com/abs/minis/7/
It is not until the Mosiac law given at Mt. sinai that God sets forth instructions for divorce and remarriage--Deut 24:1-4
This law is not given to anyone else and it disappears at the cross when God removes the Mosaic law.
Divorce
The only account we have concerning divorce is again the Mosaic law which is not in force today.
What is marriage? Every society on earth has a distinction between an unmarried couple and a married couple, so does society define marriage? Where does scripture define marriage or does it?
Yes, they do and it begins as folks begin to move out from the tower of Babel--They are all familiar with Gen 2 and know what it takes for a marriage.
Each nation is responsible and has been since God moved them out from the tower of Babel.
And over time man lost God and began doing their own thing.
It is not until 490-509 AD that the RCC begins to seek power and control held over the people by the civil government. Just over a 1,000 years later atthe Council of Trent mid way through the 29 year council it became clear that the church won and the civil government lost.
We have been fighting to understand this and get marriage back into the right arena ever since.
There is a man by the name of Martin Buccer--who was really hated by the RCC--who puts all this in perspective--
http://rgfheart.com/abs/550/mb/
What is divorce? Does divorce even exist? Can a married couple actually divorce?
Again, depends on the time period you live in--and under whose control the people are in.
In the first century--man and woman lived to gether for a year--if they were still together--they were considered married.
Yes, divorce is possible in America today because our government is in charge--though a lot of folks don't appreciate it much.
In a nation or with a group of people where the RCC exercises power and control--there is no such thing as a divorce..period.
You have to pay the church to get an annulment--to get another spouse.
Richard 79408
Greetings from stormy Texas,
Translations are causing us problems in attempting to understand verses like Matt 5:31-32 and Matt 19:9. you can go here to see the problem being caused
http://rgfheart.com/abs/matt19/a/
Richard
I agree "proof text scriptures" are a nice thing to have--but alas I have found "great disagreement as to which "proof text scriptures" are acceptable" Sortof depends on what one is attempting to prove
Matt. 5: 31 “It has been said, ‘Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.’[f] 32 But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, makes her the victim of adultery, and anyone who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
Mat 5:31 It(G1161) hath been said,G4483 WhosoeverG3739 G302 shall put awayG630 hisG848 wife,G1135 let him giveG1325 herG846 a writing of divorcement:G647
Mat 5:32 ButG1161 IG1473 sayG3004 unto you,G5213 ThatG3754 whosoeverG3739 G302 shall put awayG630 hisG848 wife,G1135 saving forG3924 the causeG3056 of fornication,G4202 causethG4160 herG846 to commit adultery:G3429 andG2532 whosoeverG3739 G1437 shall marryG1060 her that is divorcedG630 committeth adultery.G3429
The translation you used is not responsibly accurate to the text itself. It is not "divorce" which puts a particular mind picture in our mind i.e. how we have developed and how we currently use the word divorce.
The Word is "put away" and from the Hebrew constitutes only one part of the two parts needed for a divorce--our word. Shortcuts are not always helpful.
In all the ten times or so that Jesus uses "apoluo" put away only in verse 32 the second time apoluo is used it is translated as divorced.
The words we need to look at are:
Marriage
God's Moral law of sin and of death defines marriage. This law is given to all men at birth--And from the beginning man knows the ideal--Gen 2:23 The man-person said, "At last! This is bone from my bones and flesh from my flesh. She is to be called Woman [Hebrew: ishah], because she was taken out of Man [Hebrew: ish]."
Gen 2:24 This is why a man is to leave his father and mother and stick with his wife, and they are to be one flesh.
Adultery
Again, from God's moral law of sin and of death--Man knew that having sex with someone married to someone else was wrong. Joseph is an example that comes to mind.
And an brief examiniation of fornication\adultery can be found here
http://rgfheart.com/abs/minis/7/
It is not until the Mosiac law given at Mt. sinai that God sets forth instructions for divorce and remarriage--Deut 24:1-4
This law is not given to anyone else and it disappears at the cross when God removes the Mosaic law.
Divorce
The only account we have concerning divorce is again the Mosaic law which is not in force today.
What is marriage? Every society on earth has a distinction between an unmarried couple and a married couple, so does society define marriage? Where does scripture define marriage or does it?
Yes, they do and it begins as folks begin to move out from the tower of Babel--They are all familiar with Gen 2 and know what it takes for a marriage.
Each nation is responsible and has been since God moved them out from the tower of Babel.
And over time man lost God and began doing their own thing.
It is not until 490-509 AD that the RCC begins to seek power and control held over the people by the civil government. Just over a 1,000 years later atthe Council of Trent mid way through the 29 year council it became clear that the church won and the civil government lost.
We have been fighting to understand this and get marriage back into the right arena ever since.
There is a man by the name of Martin Buccer--who was really hated by the RCC--who puts all this in perspective--
http://rgfheart.com/abs/550/mb/
What is divorce? Does divorce even exist? Can a married couple actually divorce?
Again, depends on the time period you live in--and under whose control the people are in.
In the first century--man and woman lived to gether for a year--if they were still together--they were considered married.
Yes, divorce is possible in America today because our government is in charge--though a lot of folks don't appreciate it much.
In a nation or with a group of people where the RCC exercises power and control--there is no such thing as a divorce..period.
You have to pay the church to get an annulment--to get another spouse.
Richard 79408
Greetings from stormy Texas,
Translations are causing us problems in attempting to understand verses like Matt 5:31-32 and Matt 19:9. you can go here to see the problem being caused
http://rgfheart.com/abs/matt19/a/
Richard
Greetings from sunny Texas,
I have permission to share this. There is a lot of information on this site on this subject that is new to many of us. I am going to reference the site as I have on occassion anyway--http://rgfheart.com/1
In studying Marriage, Divorce, Remarriage--the goal here is to sort through all the "stuff" that we have been taught, educated and exposed to as gospel truths here.
On the one hand we have the scriptures and on the other, 2 thousands of years of history and man has not been silent on this issue.
It has only been in man's history for the last 20-30 years that we have broken the yoke of the many teachings of the Roman Catholic Church on this subject.
The advent of the internet and one's ability to gather information--has given the "man in the street" the ability to study and to search for themselves—
the many issues surrounding marriage, divorce, remarriage.
For hundreds of years the man on the street has had to rely on "others" in deciding what MDR is all about.
You should think about this—just how many hundreds of years did the RCC{Roman Catholic Church} successfully keep the Word of God out of the hands of the common people?
Further, when the scriptures were printed—the folks who did so were put to death by the RCC.
Since I am into history here—try to understand what has happened to us—With the beginning of the Reformation movement—It was not to restore Christianity but rather to reform the RCC.
The leaders in the reformation for the most part were RCC folks seeking to get back to the bible. Now you may or may not see the drift here so I will come to the point.
In 1970-71 my professors who had advanced degrees and who were teaching bible—Well, guess where they got those degrees? Yes… The RCC. No one else at the time was really offering higher degrees of learning. That has since changed-and, changed a lot.
What does our favorite teacher or preacher or professor teach and or believe on this subject– That, more often than not becomes the basis for our own decisions on what MDR is or is not.
If you think I am mistaken—just stop and take a look around you at all the many and different conclusions and understandings there are on this subject—all claiming the inspired texts as the authority.
You know, that is not a bad idea—except for folks who understand it one way—the scriptures cannot be correct in any other understanding of MDR..
You should understand that for many--I am going to be walking on those cherished beliefs with hob nailed boots--getting back to the teaching of just the scriptures.
Quite frankly many are not going to be happy campers because they believe what they believe and they don't want to make any changes. Unfortunately, the key here is "won't" because it conflicts with what they teach and believe.
So we tend to "measure" teachings on MDR--not on the scriptures but on our own belief system and comfort zone.
Let me give you an example--on facebook in a group of 70 preachers--when I mentioned this--I was buried in the negative responses--Made me think that perhaps I had touched a sacred cow with this subject. Shortly, there after I was removed.
I point this out –not to cry poor me for being removed but to point out an attitude—We are afraid to face the issue here—My removal was like folks sticking their head in the sand—cannot see it-so it does not exist.
Here is an illustration of one part of our problem that I believe the internet is going to remove.
Mat_7:29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.
This passage of course is talking about Jesus. His teachings were different from that of the Rabbi's of his time.
I have permission to share this. There is a lot of information on this site on this subject that is new to many of us. I am going to reference the site as I have on occassion anyway--http://rgfheart.com/1
In studying Marriage, Divorce, Remarriage--the goal here is to sort through all the "stuff" that we have been taught, educated and exposed to as gospel truths here.
On the one hand we have the scriptures and on the other, 2 thousands of years of history and man has not been silent on this issue.
It has only been in man's history for the last 20-30 years that we have broken the yoke of the many teachings of the Roman Catholic Church on this subject.
The advent of the internet and one's ability to gather information--has given the "man in the street" the ability to study and to search for themselves—
the many issues surrounding marriage, divorce, remarriage.
For hundreds of years the man on the street has had to rely on "others" in deciding what MDR is all about.
You should think about this—just how many hundreds of years did the RCC{Roman Catholic Church} successfully keep the Word of God out of the hands of the common people?
Further, when the scriptures were printed—the folks who did so were put to death by the RCC.
Since I am into history here—try to understand what has happened to us—With the beginning of the Reformation movement—It was not to restore Christianity but rather to reform the RCC.
The leaders in the reformation for the most part were RCC folks seeking to get back to the bible. Now you may or may not see the drift here so I will come to the point.
In 1970-71 my professors who had advanced degrees and who were teaching bible—Well, guess where they got those degrees? Yes… The RCC. No one else at the time was really offering higher degrees of learning. That has since changed-and, changed a lot.
What does our favorite teacher or preacher or professor teach and or believe on this subject– That, more often than not becomes the basis for our own decisions on what MDR is or is not.
If you think I am mistaken—just stop and take a look around you at all the many and different conclusions and understandings there are on this subject—all claiming the inspired texts as the authority.
You know, that is not a bad idea—except for folks who understand it one way—the scriptures cannot be correct in any other understanding of MDR..
You should understand that for many--I am going to be walking on those cherished beliefs with hob nailed boots--getting back to the teaching of just the scriptures.
Quite frankly many are not going to be happy campers because they believe what they believe and they don't want to make any changes. Unfortunately, the key here is "won't" because it conflicts with what they teach and believe.
So we tend to "measure" teachings on MDR--not on the scriptures but on our own belief system and comfort zone.
Let me give you an example--on facebook in a group of 70 preachers--when I mentioned this--I was buried in the negative responses--Made me think that perhaps I had touched a sacred cow with this subject. Shortly, there after I was removed.
I point this out –not to cry poor me for being removed but to point out an attitude—We are afraid to face the issue here—My removal was like folks sticking their head in the sand—cannot see it-so it does not exist.
Here is an illustration of one part of our problem that I believe the internet is going to remove.
Mat_7:29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.
This passage of course is talking about Jesus. His teachings were different from that of the Rabbi's of his time.
When a Rabbi would teach he would say that Rabbi so and so or this Rabbi teaches\says this--and, you need to see the difference.
Our "common authority" today are still the scriptures but what makes it complicated is what Rabbi so and so said--and we believe it, thus we teach it..but it ain't necessarily scripture.
If you substitute preacher, teacher, professor for Rabbi you get the idea.
Richard79408
It may not be popular but doesn't scripture clearly indicate in Jeremiah chapter 3 that God is divorced? It says in 3:8 that "I (God speaking) gave faithless Israel her certificate of divorce and sent her away because of all her adulteries." Who was Israel's "husband"? In 3:14 the Lord says, "I am your husband."
And then God (Christ) is getting married again at the Wedding Supper of the Lamb (Rev. 19:9).
So, divorce (because of adultery only) and remarriage are ok by virtue of God's example? That's the way I see it.
And then God (Christ) is getting married again at the Wedding Supper of the Lamb (Rev. 19:9).
So, divorce (because of adultery only) and remarriage are ok by virtue of God's example? That's the way I see it.
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