Mariology - the conclusion of the matter

[face2face]

Greetings all,

As many of you know we have been conducting an ongoing discussion about the RCC's dogma relating to Mary and her alleged position in Heaven (i.e Queen, Mediatrex etc.)

Catholics here agree that Mary was fallible but unable to sin. (a irreconcilable paradox)

The RCC believes Mary was allegedly given a free life (unable to sin) though born of two sinful parents, while Jesus was allegedly born of two sinless parents, but was capable of sin.

How can Catholic's in their right mind swallow this doctrine? Surely the delusion and deception must be questioned in their own minds.

@Mungo I am almost certain you have considered our conversation and reviewed the RCC's teaching in light of Bible truth? I wouldn't be surprised if you have doubts?
@Illuminator are you in the background searching the Scriptures to see if these things are so?
@Marymog can you lower your guard long enough to hear what the Spirit of God is saying concerning the humble estate of Mary, that this day she is still dead and buried awaiting the resurrection? No different to Acts 2:29
@theefaith if you resisted posting your cut and paste dribble for a moment, I believe you could learn from the Scripture that nowhere in the Bible is perpetual virginity taught anywhere. It's a total fabrication built upon many false notions held by the RCC.

My presentation on Mariology is taking place tonight and much of the content you shared assisted in understanding how completely false the teaching of Mariology is in the RCC. Many thanks for your assistance.

In Christs service
F2F

 

[Mungo]

Greetings all,

As many of you know we have been conducting an ongoing discussion about the RCC's dogma relating to Mary and her alleged position in Heaven (i.e Queen, Mediatrex etc.)

Catholics here agree that Mary was fallible but unable to sin. (a irreconcilable paradox)

The RCC believes Mary was allegedly given a free life (unable to sin) though born of two sinful parents, while Jesus was allegedly born of two sinless parents, but was capable of sin.

How can Catholic's in their right mind swallow this doctrine? Surely the delusion and deception must be questioned in their own minds.

@Mungo I am almost certain you have considered our conversation and reviewed the RCC's teaching in light of Bible truth? I wouldn't be surprised if you have doubts?
@Illuminator are you in the background searching the Scriptures to see if these things are so?
@Marymog can you lower your guard long enough to hear what the Spirit of God is saying concerning the humble estate of Mary, that this day she is still dead and buried awaiting the resurrection? No different to Acts 2:29
@theefaith if you resisted posting your cut and paste dribble for a moment, I believe you could learn from the Scripture that nowhere in the Bible is perpetual virginity taught anywhere. It's a total fabrication built upon many false notions held by the RCC.

My presentation on Mariology is taking place tonight and much of the content you shared assisted in understanding how completely false the teaching of Mariology is in the RCC. Many thanks for your assistance.

In Christs service
F2F

More lies by you.
I expect your presentation will be full of distortions and lies about Catholic teaching.
You need to repent.

 

[theefaith]

Greetings all,

As many of you know we have been conducting an ongoing discussion about the RCC's dogma relating to Mary and her alleged position in Heaven (i.e Queen, Mediatrex etc.)

Catholics here agree that Mary was fallible but unable to sin. (a irreconcilable paradox)

The RCC believes Mary was allegedly given a free life (unable to sin) though born of two sinful parents, while Jesus was allegedly born of two sinless parents, but was capable of sin.

How can Catholic's in their right mind swallow this doctrine? Surely the delusion and deception must be questioned in their own minds.

@Mungo I am almost certain you have considered our conversation and reviewed the RCC's teaching in light of Bible truth? I wouldn't be surprised if you have doubts?
@Illuminator are you in the background searching the Scriptures to see if these things are so?
@Marymog can you lower your guard long enough to hear what the Spirit of God is saying concerning the humble estate of Mary, that this day she is still dead and buried awaiting the resurrection? No different to Acts 2:29
@theefaith if you resisted posting your cut and paste dribble for a moment, I believe you could learn from the Scripture that nowhere in the Bible is perpetual virginity taught anywhere. It's a total fabrication built upon many false notions held by the RCC.

My presentation on Mariology is taking place tonight and much of the content you shared assisted in understanding how completely false the teaching of Mariology is in the RCC. Many thanks for your assistance.

In Christs service
F2F

you’re misinformed
You don’t have the facts right as usual


where is you’re condemnation of the Protestant reformers who defend the perpetual virginity of Mary and kept devotion to Mary????

Martin Luther

It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a virgin. … Christ, we believe, came forth from a womb left perfectly intact. (Weimer’s The Works of Luther, English translation by Pelikan, Concordia, St. Louis, v. 11, pp. 319-320; v. 6. p. 510.)

John Calvin

(On the Heretic Helvidius) Helvidius displayed excessive ignorance in concluding that Mary must have had many sons, because Christ’s “brothers” are sometimes mentioned. (Harmony of Matthew, Mark and Luke, sec. 39 [Geneva, 1562], vol. 2 / From Calvin’s Commentaries, translated by William Pringle, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1949, p.215; on Matthew 13:55)

[On Matt 1:25:] The inference he [Helvidius] drew from it was, that Mary remained a virgin no longer than till her first birth, and that afterwards she had other children by her husband . . . No just and well-grounded inference can be drawn from these words . . . as to what took place after the birth of Christ. He is called “first-born”; but it is for the sole purpose of informing us that he was born of a virgin . . . What took place afterwards the historian does not inform us . . . No man will obstinately keep up the argument, except from an extreme fondness for disputation. (Pringle, ibid., vol. I, p. 107)

Under the word “brethren” the Hebrews include all cousins and other relations, whatever may be the degree of affinity. (Pringle, ibid., vol. I, p. 283 / Commentary on John, [7:3])

John Wesley

‘I believe that He [Jesus] was made man, joining the human nature with the divine in one person; being conceived by the singular operation of the Holy Ghost, and born of the blessed Virgin Mary, who, as well after as before she brought Him forth, continued a pure and unspotted virgin’ (‘Letter to a Roman Catholic’, The Works of Rev. John Wesley, vol 10, p. 81).

 

[face2face]

More lies by you.
I expect your presentation will be full of distortions and lies about Catholic teaching.
You need to repent.

The presentation went extremely well. A reformed catholic provided a few additional insights into how Catholics (unlike you) have little knowledge of the Churches teaching. Most entrust their salvation in the Church. The dogma which was most confronting was the assumption of Mary which even the Catholic Church admits has no Scriptural basis. The perpetual virginity likewise. All in all its been a profitable exercise and I hope you have gained a few insights into the true Mary. Her struggle is actually a beautiful study. You should revisit the Bible and take a look...it could be the door which opens up new possibilities.

 

[Mungo]

The presentation went extremely well. A reformed catholic provided a few additional insights into how Catholics (unlike you) have little knowledge of the Churches teaching. Most entrust their salvation in the Church. The dogma which was most confronting was the assumption of Mary which even the Catholic Church admits has no Scriptural basis. The perpetual virginity likewise. All in all its been a profitable exercise and I hope you have gained a few insights into the true Mary. Her struggle is actually a beautiful study. You should revisit the Bible and take a look...it could be the door which opens up new possibilities.

Is any of that true?
Or more of your lies about Catholic teaching.

 

[theefaith]

The presentation went extremely well. A reformed catholic provided a few additional insights into how Catholics (unlike you) have little knowledge of the Churches teaching. Most entrust their salvation in the Church. The dogma which was most confronting was the assumption of Mary which even the Catholic Church admits has no Scriptural basis. The perpetual virginity likewise. All in all its been a profitable exercise and I hope you have gained a few insights into the true Mary. Her struggle is actually a beautiful study. You should revisit the Bible and take a look...it could be the door which opens up new possibilities.

what’s a reformed catholic?

the assumption scripture
Rev 12:1

perpetual Virgin scripture

Isa 7:14 matt 1:21-23 Lk 1:31 Lk 1:34

are all Mary’s sons named Jesus?
Do all her sons save people from their sins?
Are all her sons God?

or only Jesus?

the Bible alone cannot be the rule of faith or source of truth for Christians but the teaching authority of the apostles the church acts 2:42 1 Tim 3:15

 

[face2face]

what’s a reformed catholic?

Well if Catholic means “universal" what we know is one day when Christ returns there will be a true unified body of Christ made up of true believers. You need to come out of the existing Catholic system and be reformed into the true body of Christ of which you are not a part of.

 

[Abaxvahl]

Catholics here agree that Mary was fallible but unable to sin. (a irreconcilable paradox)

The RCC believes Mary was allegedly given a free life (unable to sin) though born of two sinful parents, while Jesus was allegedly born of two sinless parents, but was capable of sin.

How can Catholic's in their right mind swallow this doctrine? Surely the delusion and deception must be questioned in their own minds.

I know of no doctrine like this. If this is what Catholics here are saying I'd recommend ignoring them all. All of that is false doctrine contradicted by the Scriptures.

 

[Mungo]

Well if Catholic means “universal" what we know is one day when Christ returns there will be a true unified body of Christ made up of true believers. You need to come out of the existing Catholic system and be reformed into the true body of Christ of which you are not a part of.

So your idea of "reformed Catholics" are Protestants

 

[Mungo]

I know of no doctrine like this. If this is what Catholics here are saying I'd recommend ignoring them all. All of that is false doctrine contradicted by the Scriptures.

Just ignore his lies.

 

[theefaith]

Well if Catholic means “universal" what we know is one day when Christ returns there will be a true unified body of Christ made up of true believers. You need to come out of the existing Catholic system and be reformed into the true body of Christ of which you are not a part of.

a believer is not even a Christian but only a catechumen

faith and baptism are required for Christians in the new covenant

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

St. Paul tells the faithful at Ephesus that they have been “sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.” This is in terms of an indelible character imprinted on the soul in the sacraments of baptism and confirmation. It is not as if this invisible mark is simply decorative. Rather, through it, we are enabled to participate in Christ’s mission and in his offices of priest, prophet, and king. Eph 1:13

Sealed by God eph 1:13 sealed by God (ez 36:25-27) in the ark of salvation by baptism just as Noah was sealed by God in the ark of the flood gen 7:16

1 Pet 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark of Noah none were saved, outside the church (the ark of salvation) none are saved!)

there is only one church Matt 16:18 Jn 10:16

Jn 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

 

[theefaith]

Well if Catholic means “universal" what we know is one day when Christ returns there will be a true unified body of Christ made up of true believers. You need to come out of the existing Catholic system and be reformed into the true body of Christ of which you are not a part of.

For this reason the Church is so often called in Holy Writ a body, and even the body of Christ - "Now you are the body of Christ" (I Cor. xii., 27)-and precisely because it is a body is the Church visible: and because it is the body of Christ is it living and energizing, because by the infusion of His power Christ guards and sustains it, just as the vine gives nourishment and renders fruitful the branches united to it. And as in animals the vital principle is unseen and invisible, and is evidenced and manifested by the movements and action of the members, so the principle of supernatural life in the Church is clearly shown in that which is done by it.

From this it follows that those who arbitrarily conjure up and picture to themselves a hidden and invisible Church are in grievous and pernicious error: as also are those who regard the Church as a human institution which claims a certain obedience in discipline and external duties, but which is without the perennial communication of the gifts of divine grace, and without all that which testifies by constant and undoubted signs to the existence of that life which is drawn from God. It is assuredly as impossible that the Church of Jesus Christ can be the one or the other, as that man should be a body alone or a soul alone. The connection and union of both elements is as absolutely necessary to the true Church as the intimate union of the soul and body is to human nature. The Church is not something dead: it is the body of Christ endowed with supernatural life. As Christ, the Head and Exemplar, is not wholly in His visible human nature, which Photinians and Nestorians assert, nor wholly in the invisible divine nature, as the Monophysites hold, but is one, from and in both natures, visible and invisible; so the mystical body of Christ is the true Church, only because its visible parts draw life and power from the supernatural gifts and other things whence spring their very nature and essence. But since the Church is such by divine will and constitution, such it must uniformly remain to the end of time. If it did nor, then it would not have been founded as perpetual, and the end set before it would have been limited to some certain place and to some certain period of time; both of which are contrary to the truth. The union consequently of visible and invisible elements because it harmonizes with the natural order and by God's will belongs to the very essence of the Church, must necessarily remain so long as the Church itself shall endure. Wherefore Chrysostom writes: "Secede not from the Church: for nothing is stronger than the Church. Thy hope is the Church; thy salvation is the Church; thy refuge is the Church. It is higher than the heavens and wider than the earth. It never grows old, but is ever full of vigour. Wherefore Holy Writ pointing to its strength and stability calls it a mountain" (Hom. De capto Eutropio, n. 6).

Also Augustine says: "Unbelievers think that the Christian religion will last for a certain period in the world and will then disappear. But it will remain as long as the sun - as long as the sun rises and sets: that is, as long as the ages of time shall roll, the Church of God - the true body of Christ on earth - will not disappear" (In Psalm. lxx., n. 8). And in another place: "The Church will totter if its foundation shakes; but how can Christ be moved?...Christ remaining immovable, it (the Church), shall never be shaken. Where are they that say that the Church has disappeared from the world, when it cannot even be shaken?" (Enarratio in Psalm. ciii., sermo ii., n. 5).

He who seeks the truth must be guided by these fundamental principles. That is to say, that Christ the Lord instituted and formed the Church: wherefore when we are asked what its nature is, the main thing is to see what Christ wished and what in fact He did. Judged by such a criterion it is the unity of the Church which must be principally considered; and of this, for the general good, it has seemed useful to speak in this Encyclical. ,

 

[face2face]

For this reason the Church is so often called in Holy Writ a body, and even the body of Christ - "Now you are the body of Christ" (I Cor. xii., 27)-and precisely because it is a body is the Church visible:

Its apostasy will be revealed.

 

[face2face]

So your idea of "reformed Catholics" are Protestants

No actually.

 

[theefaith]

Its apostasy will be revealed.

faith alone and the Bible alone? Yes you right

 

[Cassandra]

the Bible alone cannot be the rule of faith or source of truth for Christians but the teaching authority of the apostles the church acts 2:42 1 Tim 3:15

Acts 2:42 "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers."

They were learning. You can say this about any church. Not only do we go to worship, we go to learn.

1Tim 3:15 "1 Timothy 3:15, KJV: "But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth."

Same thing here. These prove assembly, doctrine and fellowship, and prayers. Every church has these. You claim the word apostle and apply to your church. And I am sure there are other churches who claim the word apostle too.

 

[Marymog]

Greetings all,

As many of you know we have been conducting an ongoing discussion about the RCC's dogma relating to Mary and her alleged position in Heaven (i.e Queen, Mediatrex etc.)

Catholics here agree that Mary was fallible but unable to sin. (a irreconcilable paradox)

The RCC believes Mary was allegedly given a free life (unable to sin) though born of two sinful parents, while Jesus was allegedly born of two sinless parents, but was capable of sin.

How can Catholic's in their right mind swallow this doctrine? Surely the delusion and deception must be questioned in their own minds.

@Mungo I am almost certain you have considered our conversation and reviewed the RCC's teaching in light of Bible truth? I wouldn't be surprised if you have doubts?
@Illuminator are you in the background searching the Scriptures to see if these things are so?
@Marymog can you lower your guard long enough to hear what the Spirit of God is saying concerning the humble estate of Mary, that this day she is still dead and buried awaiting the resurrection? No different to Acts 2:29
@theefaith if you resisted posting your cut and paste dribble for a moment, I believe you could learn from the Scripture that nowhere in the Bible is perpetual virginity taught anywhere. It's a total fabrication built upon many false notions held by the RCC.

My presentation on Mariology is taking place tonight and much of the content you shared assisted in understanding how completely false the teaching of Mariology is in the RCC. Many thanks for your assistance.

In Christs service
F2F

Hi F2F,

The real question is why Protestants REJECT the long held teaching of Christianity. For you see kiddo the teachings about Mary that you reject came 1st and your Protestant teaching came 2nd. So in reality YOU and your ilk are out of step with the longest held teaching on Mary. Even your Protestant forefathers from 500 years ago that started your revolution accepted this teaching that you reject. YOU and your ilk have rejected your own forefathers AND the teaching of The Church because you believe everyone else is wrong and you are right.

@Mungo @Illuminator @theefaith The Church and I stand fast and hold the traditions which we have been taught whether by word or epistle (2 Thessalonians 2:15). You and your ilk don't. We are concerned for you. You have no reason to be concerned for us.

 

[theefaith]

Acts 2:42 "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers."

They were learning. You can say this about any church. Not only do we go to worship, we go to learn.

1Tim 3:15 "1 Timothy 3:15, KJV: "But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth."

Same thing here. These prove assembly, doctrine and fellowship, and prayers. Every church has these. You claim the word apostle and apply to your church. And I am sure there are other churches who claim the word apostle too.

There is only one true church founded by Christ on Peter and the apostles and their successors, Matt 16:18 & 18:18 eph 2:20 it is the new covenant body of Christ!
One fold Jn 10:16
the household of faith! Gal 6:10
Christ and his church are one acts 9:4
Also an attack on the church is an attack on Christ acts 9:4
Pillar and ground of truth! 1 Tim 3:15

The one true founded by Christ on Peter and the apostles Matt 16:18-19 18:18 prevails until his return without error Jn 16:13 with the same mission power and authority as Christ! Jn 20:21-23

 

[Cassandra]

One fold Jn 10:16
the household of faith! Gal 6:10
Christ and his church are one acts 9:4
Also an attack on the church is an attack on Christ acts 9:4
Pillar and ground of truth! 1 Tim 3:15

Again you can say that about any church.
And I don't believe Peter is the rock.
Jesus is the Rock.

 

[Mungo]

Again you can say that about any church.
And I don't believe Peter is the rock.
Jesus is the Rock.

Jesus renamed Simon (Peter) as Rock
John 1:42
And he brought him to Jesus. And Jesus looked at him, and said, “You are Simon, the son of Jonah. You shall be called Cephas.” (which is by interpretation, Rock) (RGT)
Then he took Simon to Jesus. Jesus looked at him and said, “Your name is Simon son of John, but you will be called Cephas.” (This is the same as Peter and means “a rock.”) (GNT)
and he brought Simon to Jesus. When Jesus saw him, He said, “You are Simon, son of John. You will be called Cephas” (which means “Rock”). (HCSB)
Then Andrew took Simon to Jesus. Jesus looked at him and said, “You are Simon son of John. You will be called Cephas.” (“Cephas” means “Peter.”) [C Both Aramaic Cephas and Greek Petros mean “rock.”] (EXB)
He took him to Yeshua. Looking at him, Yeshua said, “You are Shim‘on Bar-Yochanan; you will be known as Kefa.” (The name means “rock.”) (CJB)
And he brought Simon to Jesus. Jesus looked at him and said, “You are Simon, son of John. You will be called Cephas.” Cephas means Peter, or Rock. (NIRV)
Andrew took Simon to Jesus. When Jesus saw Simon, He said, “You are Simon, the son of John. Your name will be Cephas.” The name Cephas means Peter, or a rock.(NLV)
and he brought him unto Jesus: and having looked upon him, Jesus saith, `Thou art Simon, the son of Jonas, thou shalt be called Cephas,' (which is interpreted, A rock.) (YLT)
Kephas (transliterated in Greek to Cephas) is Aramaic for Rock (a big one).