If you decide your salvation you are good for doing so. And you rob God of his glory and apply it to yourself. When in scripture, you cannot believe unless God gives you the Holy Spirit of which faith is a fruit.
Man has a part in his salvation=things to do, believe and say.
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No one robs God of His glory by responding to the Gospel in faith. Quite the opposite. And faith as a fruit of the Spirit is NOT the same as saving faith.
Salvation is entirely a work of God, but you had to respond to the Gospel, just like everyone else. You were not saved BEFORE you were saved. But that is what you are promoting.
I don't think so...
A person may decide to receive Christ out of entirely selfish motives...because they do not want to go to hell, for example.
If for other reasons a person comes to Christ (because they experience God's love coming from Christians, or because they become convinced intellectually that the gospel is true), even that is not something that is in itself good in the heart of the person who receives. They simply become convinced of the truth because the evidence is there. This does not necessarily indicate goodness in the heart of the person who becomes convinced.
Also, as concerning surrender to the Lordship of Christ, I am not denying that there is a drawing effect that must take place for a person to make that decision. Perhaps faith comes first and then surrender; but that salvation is there in the surrender of the heart to Christ. In such a case it is not faith that saves; even though the Bible clearly teaches that we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand.
Perhaps it is only a faith that becomes fully matured that even has the power to save anyone.
It goes back to whether a person is saved by grace through faith so that they can have faith...the reality of the matter is that they already have faith, and it is that which saved them!
I would postulate that it is only a living faith that saves...and that such a faith always includes surrender to the Lordship of Jesus Christ.
So, perhaps a person can have faith that doesn't save them, or that they can be saved before they ever have faith in the Lord...since as @Dave L contends, faith comes after salvation and not before. And if that is the case, I can have salvation without faith in Jesus...
Strange brew indeed...
CoreIssue
Well-Known Member
It is called highlighting a key point.
And you still try things like this to defend the KJV. You have even tried to defend such as replacing Passover with Easter in the Bible.
CoreIssue
Well-Known Member
Faith is a spiritual gift given to those who are ALREADY SAVED. But saving faith is generated by the preaching of the Gospel (also called the Word of God), which is the power of God unto salvation (Rom 1:16). The whole tenor of Romans 10 leads to this statement: So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. (v 17)
Thus we have the term "the obedience of faith" meaning obedience to the Gospel through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ: But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith (Rom 16:26)
Is salvation a supernatural act of God? Or is it a natural act of man? If you meet any conditions to save yourself, it is a work of the flesh and therefore sinful. Scripture teaches that salvation is a miracle resurrection from the dead of the human spirit. And an infilling of the Holy Spirit.
Exactly; this is why we need the vital, quickening power of the Holy Spirit in the new birth (Ephesians 2.5; John 3).
Herein is the force of "Ye must be born again", I think.
In some ways Billy Graham's book title: 'How to be Born Again' is slightly a misnomer; while I don't doubt there are useful ideas in the book, yet in a sense it's not something we "do"; it's not a meritorious, human work. It required complete dependence on God, through grace, by His Spirit.
Finney and Billy preached "decisional regeneration". Sort of an evangelical version of "Baptismal Regeneration". People were no doubt saved but confused not realizing they already believed (were saved according to Jesus) or they would not have "decided to believe". So it was the devil's way of focusing their faith on their faith, instead of on Christ.
I wish so called evangelicals would focus on human responsibility and God's sovereignty, rather than on 'decisionism'...
You meet the condition that the Lord prescribes as the way that we receive the gift of salvation; and then the Lord takes you the rest of the way.
Otherwise, those who have met those conditions cannot have the assurance of salvation that the Lord wants for them; because there is always the nagging doubt in the back of their mind: what if I am not one of His elect? Then it does not matter that I called on the name of the Lord because God did not choose me and therefore I am rejected even though I did what the Lord told me to do in order to be saved.
This is not our Lord.
The scripture declares:
Jhn 6:37, All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Rom 10:8, But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Rom 10:9, That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10, For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11, For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12, For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13, For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Now you cannot tell me that these promises are not true and that if I come to Jesus, calling on His name, that I will not immediately be saved, because of some nonsense that I had to be saved before that or my salvation isn't valid.
These are promises of scripture.
.
.
.
2Pe 1:3, According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath calleus to glory and virtue:
2Pe 1:4, Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
Heb 11:33, Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,
2Co 1:20, For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.
Rom 4:20, He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
Rom 4:21, And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
Rom 4:22, And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
All very true. But when the Gospel is preached to those who are not saved, the only thing that matters is preaching Christ and Him crucified. Preaching Calvinistic nonsense is not preaching the Gospel, and the Bible confirms that. Here is what sinners need to hear:
Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. (Isa 45:22)
Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.(Isa 55:1)
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. (Rev 3:20)
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.(Rev 22:17)
It is noteworthy that in all of Spurgeon's sermons, the invitation to be saved is for all of his hearers. Spurgeon was a Calvinist but he hesitated to make that a part of his Gospel preaching.
"The Spirit says it. What a cry must this be which comes up from the Spirit of God Himself! Given at Pentecost, He has never returned or left the Church, but He dwells in chosen hearts, as in a temple, even to this day. He is always moving men to pray that Christ may come, and moving men to come to Christ." Spurgeon
II. THE INVITATION, OR THE COMING OF MEN TO CHRIST. What is it to come? Listen to His own explanation: "He that cometh unto Me shall never hunger," etc. Then "coming," and "taking," and "drinking," are all but various forms of representing the one act of believing in Him. We come to Him when we trust Him. To come to Christ is faith. Who is it that are asked to come? "He that thirsteth" and "he that willeth." The one phrase expresses the universal condition, the other only the limitation necessary in the very nature of things. "He that thirsteth." Who does not?... A. Maclaren
There are no conditions strapped to salvation. You are reading conditions into the texts. And turning the gospel into law, and turning salvation by grace into salvation by works.
Where did you come up with is fantasy? Repentance and faith in Christ and His finished work of redemption are essential conditions for salvation. Both are COMMANDED by God.
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: (Acts 17:30)
And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. (1 John 3:23)
And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house, Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. (Acts 20:20,21)
What was the first word in the preaching of John the Baptist, Christ, and the apostle Peter? REPENT. So you need to repent of all your false doctrine and bizarre notions.
Here's the proper order of salvation. New Birth, Faithfulness built into the new nature. Faith from hearing the Word, repentance leading to the fullness of the Holy Spirit, baptism. The flesh can only have sinful human faith and any response to any gospel is an act of self gratification and sinful motive.
Don't just sit on your hands=do your part=choose to believe!!
Man has a part in his salvation=things to do, believe and say. He must start by choosing to believe!
Romans: Chapter 10 verse 9-10-13
God says==That """if""" thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus,
and ""shalt believe"" in your heart that God hath raised him
from the dead, thou shalt be Saved. For with the heart man
believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth ""confession
is made unto Salvation"". For whosoever shall ""call ""upon the
name of the Lord "shall" be Saved..........
Man has a part in his salvation=things to do, believe and say. He must start by choosing to believe!
Romans: Chapter 10 verse 9-10-13
God says==That """if""" thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus,
and ""shalt believe"" in your heart that God hath raised him
from the dead, thou shalt be Saved. For with the heart man
believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth ""confession
is made unto Salvation"". For whosoever shall ""call ""upon the
name of the Lord "shall" be Saved..........
Don't just sit on your hands=do your part=choose to believe!!
Man has a part in his salvation=things to do, believe and say. He must start by choosing to believe!
Romans: Chapter 10 verse 9-10-13
God says==That """if""" thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus,
and ""shalt believe"" in your heart that God hath raised him
from the dead, thou shalt be Saved. For with the heart man
believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth ""confession
is made unto Salvation"". For whosoever shall ""call ""upon the
name of the Lord "shall" be Saved.
Man has a part in his salvation=things to do, believe and say. He must start by choosing to believe!
Romans: Chapter 10 verse 9-10-13
God says==That """if""" thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus,
and ""shalt believe"" in your heart that God hath raised him
from the dead, thou shalt be Saved. For with the heart man
believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth ""confession
is made unto Salvation"". For whosoever shall ""call ""upon the
name of the Lord "shall" be Saved.
FHII
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- Apr 9, 2011
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There are 299 messages to this thread. I won't read them all, especially when the first 60 were on a loop: same arguments just being repeated.
Romans 10:10-13 cannot be read in isolation.... Much like most of the Bible. You must at least read the 9th and 11th chapter to even begin to understand what those 3 verses mean.
Paul was lamenting on the fate of Israelites. He desired them to be saved as well. But it was not going to happen if they didn't put their faith in Christ.
It is reflective... Its talking about the past at that point but it is also a formula for the present and future Jews (as well as gentiles, but it is specifically speaking about Jews).
Paul was saying that he desired them to be saved and the gospel of faith had been preached to them. It was rejected, but not by all... He (Paul) himself heard it. He mentions that in rhe 11th chapter... By the way, in that chapter he is still speaking in past tense. And he says that God foreknew who would be saved.
So in Romans 10:9 it does say "if". Fine. It can be seen as a call to believe, but because of the past tense context, it is an identification. You have to read the whole chapter as well as 9 and 11 to get that. But yes... We must believe and God foreknows who that is and unless you want to ignore the verses on predestination, it was God's will all along that some would believe and some wouldn't.
Before I wrap up my thoughts and conclude, I would like to point out that yes... If you call on the name of the Lord you will be saved. But you cannot call on him if you haven't heard him. And you can't hear him without....
.....A preacher!
Thats Romans 10:14! So if you are talking about 9:10-13 being the Word of God... What about verse 14? And verse 17 which says faith comes by hearing? Not reading. Not hearing the god-voice in your head... Hearing a preacher!
So if you are going to cling to Romans 10:10-13 and say man has a work to to then I expect you to hold to verse 14 just as much and understand you need to humble youself under someone else: a preacher! There is your work to do! Sit down, shut up and listen to a man God has put in charge.
So... In conclusion... Must we choose to believe? Well, we must believe. A wise man will go willingly. The guy who wrote this didn't believe at first. God brought his life to a stand still. Left him blind on the road to damascas and told him... Even Paul... Had to seek a mman on the street called straight!
So your work is depending on Jesus's work. And if God wants you there... You are going to go. And its going to be by the absolute foolishness of preaching that you are saved.
As for me... I just can't claim credit for my salvation by relying on a man who preached about a man who paid my ransom. That's me listening about what was done for me... Not by me.
Romans 10:10-13 cannot be read in isolation.... Much like most of the Bible. You must at least read the 9th and 11th chapter to even begin to understand what those 3 verses mean.
Paul was lamenting on the fate of Israelites. He desired them to be saved as well. But it was not going to happen if they didn't put their faith in Christ.
It is reflective... Its talking about the past at that point but it is also a formula for the present and future Jews (as well as gentiles, but it is specifically speaking about Jews).
Paul was saying that he desired them to be saved and the gospel of faith had been preached to them. It was rejected, but not by all... He (Paul) himself heard it. He mentions that in rhe 11th chapter... By the way, in that chapter he is still speaking in past tense. And he says that God foreknew who would be saved.
So in Romans 10:9 it does say "if". Fine. It can be seen as a call to believe, but because of the past tense context, it is an identification. You have to read the whole chapter as well as 9 and 11 to get that. But yes... We must believe and God foreknows who that is and unless you want to ignore the verses on predestination, it was God's will all along that some would believe and some wouldn't.
Before I wrap up my thoughts and conclude, I would like to point out that yes... If you call on the name of the Lord you will be saved. But you cannot call on him if you haven't heard him. And you can't hear him without....
.....A preacher!
Thats Romans 10:14! So if you are talking about 9:10-13 being the Word of God... What about verse 14? And verse 17 which says faith comes by hearing? Not reading. Not hearing the god-voice in your head... Hearing a preacher!
So if you are going to cling to Romans 10:10-13 and say man has a work to to then I expect you to hold to verse 14 just as much and understand you need to humble youself under someone else: a preacher! There is your work to do! Sit down, shut up and listen to a man God has put in charge.
So... In conclusion... Must we choose to believe? Well, we must believe. A wise man will go willingly. The guy who wrote this didn't believe at first. God brought his life to a stand still. Left him blind on the road to damascas and told him... Even Paul... Had to seek a mman on the street called straight!
So your work is depending on Jesus's work. And if God wants you there... You are going to go. And its going to be by the absolute foolishness of preaching that you are saved.
As for me... I just can't claim credit for my salvation by relying on a man who preached about a man who paid my ransom. That's me listening about what was done for me... Not by me.
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