Man has a part in his salvation=things to do, believe and say.

[farouk]

This verse simply means that no one can be saved without a supernatural drawing to Christ through the Gospel. It does not mean that God excludes anyone from being saved. What it does mean is that (a) there is supernatural power in the true Gospel -- when presented through and with the Word of God -- to bring men salvation and (b) there is a supernatural drawing to Christ by the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit when the Gospel is preached or read.

This verse has been misapplied by Calvinists to teach that God draws some to Christ while He ignores others. That is simply untrue and unbiblical.

I think you are insisting that I accept your definition; but I would prefer to stick with John 6.44.

 

[farouk]

No one is arguing with John 6:44.

The fundamental difference between Calvinist and other view points is the underlined part here:
Non-Calvinist: all men whom come to Christ is because God drew them into there. Those that don't come to the Father are because they choose to reject God's message.
Calvinist: all men whom come to Christ is because God drew them into there. Those that don't come to the Father are because God didn't bother to testify to them.

I think you are insisting that I accept your definition; but I would prefer to stick with John 6.44.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

I think you are insisting that I accept your definition; but I would prefer to stick with John 6.44.

Again, no one is arguing with John 6:44 about people whom come to Christ. The discussion is based upon what happened to those that did NOT come to Christ. The verse did not say didn't come to Christ because God didn't testify to them.

why do you think a person did NOT come to Christ?

 

[farouk]

Again, no one is arguing with John 6:44 about people whom come to Christ. The discussion is based upon what happened to those that did NOT come to Christ. The verse did not say didn't come to Christ because God didn't testify to them.

why do you think a person did NOT come to Christ?

Because they are dead spiritually. (Ephesians 2.1)

So they need the grace of God (Ephesians 2.2-9)

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Because they are dead spiritually. (Ephesians 2.1)

So they need the grace of God (Ephesians 2.2-9)

And God... did what?

Did He testify to them?

 

[farouk]

And God... did what?

Did He testify to them?

Romans 1 speaks of the guilt-stricken human conscience. Romans 2 speaks of the need for repentance. Romans 3.23 says: 'All have sinned, and come short of the glory of God'.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Romans 1 speaks of the guilt-stricken human conscience. Romans 2 speaks of the need for repentance. Romans 3.23 says: 'All have sinned, and come short of the glory of God'.

So the person who did NOT come to Christ: did God speak to his guilt-stricken human conscience?

 

[farouk]

So the person who did NOT come to Christ: did God speak to his guilt-stricken human conscience?

It's called human responsibility: Romans' massive presentation of the Gospel of the justifying grace of God is not shown independently of human need and God's dealings with the sinner's conscience.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

It's called human responsibility: Romans' massive presentation of the Gospel of the justifying grace of God is not shown independently of human need and God's dealings with the sinner's conscience.

I'm not sure if you're answering yes or no to my question:
So the person who did NOT come to Christ: did God speak to his guilt-stricken human conscience?

(Apologies if my brain is not working correctly)

 

[farouk]

I'm not sure if you're answering yes or no to my question:
So the person who did NOT come to Christ: did God speak to his guilt-stricken human conscience?

(Apologies if my brain is not working correctly)

I think I'll refer to Romans 1 again. And to Acts 17.30: 'God now commandeth all men everywhere to repent'.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

I think I'll refer to Romans 1 again. And to Acts 17.30: 'God now commandeth all men everywhere to repent'.

Yes, they need to repent.

But did God testify to them? Was there ever that chance for him to repent?

 

[farouk]

Yes, they need to repent.

But did God testify to them? If God never testified to them, and God created them to be fallen, then they cannot be blamed for a lack of repentance-- they were created fallen and never had the opportunity to be anything else.

"All have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3.23).

"And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life." (Revelation 21.27)

"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel." (Romans 2.14-16)

 

[Jane_Doe22]

"All have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3.23).

"And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life." (Revelation 21.27)

"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel." (Romans 2.14-16)

It feels like you are hiding behind scripture rather than actually engaging in conversation with me. It is very frustrating.

 

[farouk]

It feels like you are hiding behind scripture rather than actually engaging in conversation with me. It is very frustrating.

I want to give Scriptural responses.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

I want to give Scriptural responses.

I would prefer if you explained your beliefs and actually spoke with me. I am after all, on here, and asking questions about your beliefs because I want to know about your beliefs.

I can read scripture without being on this forum (and be much more efficient about it).

 

[farouk]

I would prefer if you explained your beliefs and actually spoke with me. I can read scripture without being on this forum (and be much more efficient about it).

Well, apart from Scripture, my opinions don't matter.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Well, apart from Scripture, my opinions don't matter.

I was/am trying to understand what/why it is you believe what you do. That is my purpose being on here.

 

[farouk]

I was/am trying to understand what/why it is you believe what you do. That is my purpose being on here.

Frankly — as veteran Soviet Foreign Minister Andrei Gromyko (not usually given to humour) once said: "I am not interested in my opinions". :)

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Frankly — as veteran Soviet Foreign Minister Andrei Gromyko (not usually given to humour) once said: "I am not interested in my opinions". :)

So... you're saying I shouldn't care about what you believe at all?

 

[farouk]

So... you're saying I shouldn't care about what you believe at all?

Care about "Thus saith the LORD..."