Luke 12:47-48 question

[Taken]

yes… but what does this look like in Application?

Compare a seminary student, who also grew up in the church, chooses to abandon the faith to an atheist who never really learned about Christ.

The apostate seminary student will be punished with more stripes than the atheist who never really learned about Christ. But what do those “more stripes” entail? A hotter pot of lava?

You paint an unrealistic scenario...

A seminary student, a person growing up being sent to church by his parents......Does not mean, believer or converted.
A seminary student would hear and learn ABOUT CHRIST.
A person “growing up” in a Chruch....would most LIKELY hear ABOUT CHRIST.
......Cant’ say if such a person BELIEVED what they heard.

So....then you have them declaring themselves an ATHEIST....
We can “somewhat” presume “THEY HEARD”...but no indication...
They BELIEVED then.

ATHEIST, is confessing REJECTION of Belief IN God and Christ Jesus.
What they heard, believed, thought, before......IS plainly revealed....
THEY DID NOT BECOME CONVERTED....

They exercised their own Freewill to Reject God and Christ Jesus.
Effecting ... Them DIVIDING themself FROM God and Christ Jesus.
WHEN....they physically die:
*Their body will be .... buried by other people.
*Their living soul will depart their body....and God will send that living soul to hell......(Separating the soul FROM GOD, as that individual Desired, Freely chose to be Divided From God).
*And their Natural spirit, (never having been born again), will die with its body.

There that living soul, will WAIT IN HELL, for the day of their Judgement.
(Gloomy, stinky, hot, dark, with no relief...his torments waiting for judgement).

 

[Cooper]

Since the apostate will be condemned for eternal destruction, does that mean there is a lesser hell for the ignorant atheist? What would “fewer stripes” mean for him?

As far as I know, the apostate would find themselves in hell, that much is certain, and for the believer, there are varying degrees of rewards with the saints heading the list.
.

 

[Cooper]

One is EITHER apostate OR a backslider.

[apostate]

[1 John 2:18-19 NASB20] 18 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not [really] of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but [they went out,] so that it would be evident that they all are not of us.​

[backslider]

[Galatians 6:1 NASB20] 1 Brothers [and sisters,] even if a person is caught in any wrongdoing, you who are spiritual are to restore such a person in a spirit of gentleness; [each one] looking to yourself, so that you are not tempted as well.

[James 5:19-20 NASB95] 19 My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.
​

... and it is Jesus who claims:
[John 6:37-45 NASB95]

37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." 41 Therefore the Jews were grumbling about Him, because He said, "I am the bread that came down out of heaven." 42 They were saying, "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say, 'I have come down out of heaven'?" 43 Jesus answered and said to them, "Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.​

1. Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me. [Jesus]
2. the one who comes to Me I [Jesus] will certainly not cast out.
3. I Myself [Jesus] will raise him [everyone saved] up on the last day.

That is "Preservation of the Saints" and "Eternal Security" in the strength of the promise of God the Son and the will of God the Father ... lightly shrugged off as "OSAS" by those that claim to hold onto righteousness by the strength of human will. We know that it is God who is at work in us, both to will and to work for His good pleasure [Philippians 2:13] and He who began a good work in us will perfect it [Philippians 1:6], so it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy [Romans 9:16].

I agree. In my words, the apostate has turned their back on God for all time, and is one of Satan's minions, while the backslider, the same as the prodigal son, can return to the Father who will welcome them back with open arms.

My problem with OSAS is that people seem to think God has given them a licence to do as they like. I would prefer to fix my eyes on Jesus and follow Him all the days of my life. Having said that, God forgave David, but I think we are best not to go down that road and instead remain faithful servants of God.
.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I understand this completely. Im asking about the punishment itself. What will the larger punishment be over the lesser? I thought hell was hell. Will the person who someone who sins in ignorance go to hell for a short period time and then to heaven? Or will it be a less hot lake of fire?

Its funny, I’ve never seen anyone ask this! I asked pretty much the same thing when I read that it will be worse for some men than it will be for sodom in judgement. My first thought was, what, are there good neighborhoods and ghettos in hell?? It was my first inkling of suspicion that what men teach about two final destinations is not anywhere near complete.

There is a parable that causes me to think there is a purgatorial type place that some men will go to. A place of more stripes and less stripes. It’s the one about the man who had his debt forgiven who then refused to forgive another mans debt against him. At the end, it says he will be cast into prison and will not come out until he has paid the last farthing of his debt. So his own debt, which was forgiven, was reinstated when he received forgiveness but did not then extend forgiveness.

I think this prison might be the outer darkness. I cannot find anything else that fits.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Dang, I just noticed Fether hasn’t been in since April. I really, really was looking forward to talking with him. In this thread and another one I found him in. Shoot!

 

[Lambano]

My first thought was, what, are there good neighborhoods and ghettos in hell??

Dante thought so. Each punishment was appropriate for the sin that defined a person's life. The violent are sentenced to stand in a river of boiling blood. The sexually promiscuous drift aimlessly in the winds. Those who cause division are cut to pieces by demons, only to heal and be cut to pieces again and again. The flatterers, the ones who get ahead by telling people what they want to hear, every word from their mouths produces dung, in which they must wander for all eternity...

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Dante thought so. Each punishment was appropriate for the sin that defined a person's life. The violent are sentenced to stand in a river of boiling blood. The sexually promiscuous drift aimlessly in the winds. Those who cause division are cut to pieces by demons, only to heal and be cut to pieces again and again. The flatterers, the ones who get ahead by telling people what they want to hear, every word from their mouths produces dung, in which they must wander for all eternity...

hmm…interesting. Sounds like he thought all men live forever, even those who do not receive Gods Spirit…

 

[Lambano]

hmm…interesting. Sounds like he thought all men live forever, even those who do not receive Gods Spirit…

He was a product of 15th century Catholicism, which then as now, believed in the immortality of the soul.

But the truth is, we continue to exist as long as God wants us to exist. That cannot be denied. And if open-ended wandering in a pit of s*** brings a man to become so disgusted with his own sin, so be it.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

And if open-ended wandering in a pit of s*** brings a man to be so disgusted with his own sin, so be it.

This sounds like what happened to me…

 

[stunnedbygrace]

But the truth is, we continue to exist as long as God wants us to exist.

I agree. But men might claim He wants them to exist eternally in torment when God is more merciful than that. Men make themselves out to be more merciful than God.Even men will shoot a mere horse to give it relief from torment.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Then there’s the whole bit about how to whoever God gives more, more will be required.
Religion tends to make it the opposite, where to whoever is given more, less will be required and they will be judged more leniently than those to whom God gave much less.

And that also ties in to how it will be worse for some men than it will be for sodom on the day of judgement.

 

[Lambano]

Then there’s the whole bit about how to whoever God gives more, more will be required.
Religion tends to make it the opposite, where to whoever is given more, less will be required and they will be judged more leniently than those to whom God gave much less.

Yes and no and maybe. One of the Greek definitions of δικαιοσύνη ("righteousness") is, "the virtue which gives each his due". In talking about our relationship with God, the assumption of the religious man is, "how can a non-believer give to God what He is due?"

 

[Lambano]

For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

I see this one so much in these forums I want to scream.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Yes and no and maybe. One of the Greek definitions of δικαιοσύνη ("righteousness") is, "the virtue which gives each his due". In talking about our relationship with God, the assumption of the religious man is, "how can a non-believer give to God what He is due?"

How does the religious man think he gives to God what God is due…? Is that like this?
God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

 

[Lambano]

I agree. But men might claim He wants them to exist eternally in torment when God is more merciful than that. Men make themselves out to be more merciful than God.Even men will shoot a mere horse to give it relief from torment.

‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you did not scatter seed. And I was afraid, so I went away and hid your talent in the ground.'

And there's the ditch on the other side of the road.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you did not scatter seed. And I was afraid, so I went away and hid your talent in the ground.'

And there's the ditch on the other side of the road.

I guess I don’t see that as an opposite ditch because I don’t think the outer darkness is eternal torment but a purgatorial place/prison you won’t come out of until you pay the last farthing/receive the commensurate stripes.
I’m not completely settled on it all to the point where I would argue rather than just share what I have seen about how religion has oversimplified judgement AND tipped the scales in its favor far beyond what is fair and merciful.

 

[Lambano]

Where I wanted to go with that was here: One of the ways we find that ditch is to make following Christ all about "not sinning".

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Where I wanted to go with that was here: One of the ways we find that ditch is to make following Christ all about "not sinning".

Ah…okay, I see it…

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Ah…okay, I see it…

Im furiously trying to put it into my own thought…
It’s a wrong order that’s the problem.

People were healed according to their trust, forgiven according to their trust, and THEN they were told to go and sin no more.
Any progression, any furthering, is - let it be according to your trust.
Does that make sense?
So it’s not - let it be according to if you stop sinning. It’s - let it all be according to your trust.

 

[ScottA]

yes… but what does this look like in Application?

Tribulations, weeping and gnashing of teeth.