LGBTQ

[CadyandZoe]

it is strictly a matter of belief that your extrapolation is an accurate model of the world.

False. I argued from design. What I said is not a matter of dogma.

All I can see is your very obvious hatred of certain groups of people.

Hatred is action. I took no action against anyone. Your accusation of hatred reveals insecurity.

 

[CadyandZoe]

No I don't, I just need to ask for evidence for your claims about LGBT individuals.

You have evidence.

 

[CadyandZoe]

and how would you providing actual evidence for your claims garner approval for me?

You sought approval from scientific papers on the subject, instead of looking at your own body. Why would you doubt yourself like that if you weren't seeking approval?

 

[CadyandZoe]

That is why I ask for evidence. No one ever gives any evidence but I still ask.

What is science?

What Science Is and Isn’t | Peter J. Leithart

Science doesn’t provide a comprehensive, indisputable account of reality. That doesn’t make it useless, but it does mean we’ll misuse science so long as we misconstrue what it is and isn’t.

www.firstthings.com

 

[TinMan]

False. I argued from design. What I said is not a matter of dogma.

Your belief that this design is exactly as you see it is just your belief.

Hatred is action. I took no action against anyone. Your accusation of hatred reveals insecurity.

you just called (an action)a group of minorities and the people that make up those minorities "broken, bent, perverted, unsuitable, useless"

 

[TinMan]

You have evidence.

I have loads of evidence that being LGBT is not a pathology, is not a behavior and does not make people "broken, bent, perverted, unsuitable, useless" You have stated, more than once, that you will not look at such evidence as if closing your eyes will make it go away.

You have not provided any actual evidence to support your claims

 

[TinMan]

You sought approval from scientific papers on the subject, instead of looking at your own body. Why would you doubt yourself like that if you weren't seeking approval?

If your claims are as true as you say why is there no evidence to back them up? And how could it be possible that there is evidence that shows something very different from your view?

 

[Wrangler]

All I can see is your very obvious hatred of certain groups of people.

You see incorrectly. All you can see? You don’t see the hatred of the same group against God in their ingoing and prideful homosexual sinning?

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

@TinMan

@MatthewG



"... But for Adam no suitable helper was found. So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man's ribs and closed up the place with flesh. Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man. The man said, "This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called woman, for she was take out of man." Gen. 2:20-23
He made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve! His purpose for them was to mate and share life together, as one and procreate. "Be fruitful and multiply!"
Sin came into the world and distorted things. This led to all sorts of defects, dysfunctional behavior, perversion, a misguided purpose that God intended ... a world full of lost souls who were disconnected with God. Over the next 1656 years, men and women became wicked. Likely LGBTQs were in the mix as well. But God spared Noah, a righteous man, His wife, three sons and their wives. No LGBTQ's were allowed on the boat ... or anyone else! They were all destroyed in the Flood. And so it shall be again, as in the days of Noah, when Jesus returns, he will destroy the wicked, godless people. I can list the numerous scriptures about end time judgment, but I would have to quote hundreds.
Homosexuality is an abomination to God. We didn't make that up, He told us. He gives sinners ample opportunities to repent and after a certain point in time, HE LET'S THEM GO to do as they will.
"Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another, They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator - who is forever praised. Amen. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion." Romans 1:24-27

God let's them go (gives them over) to their own demise! They do not repent, they love their sin. God does not desire that any would perish. He draws all men to Himself, but men resist, rebel and reject Him and His purpose for man.

If the Bible is not proof enough for you, then maybe He already let you go. "The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness ..." Rom. 1:18

Remember, God is a God of love but is also a God of justice. Sin needs to be judged. Forgiveness is available, for those who believe in Christ and ask. You don't ask for forgiveness and then just pick and choose the scriptures that work for your life and style and discard the rest. Of course it takes time to understand the entire Bible and certainly it is not a prerequisite for salvation. If we believe that Jesus died on the cross for our sins and rose on the third day, we will be saved. Yes, it is possible to discount things in the Bible and still be saved, but this particular lifestyle is non-negotiable. Homosexuals will not get into heaven - unless they repent, stop and change. Exodus International is an organization that helps individuals to come out of this lifestyle and has many success stories of former homosexuals that are now married to the opposite sex, have kids and are healed of this lustful desire. Self control is what it is all about. We have urges, desires, lusts for all sorts of things and we must learn to control them as well. We need to identify our sins and mortify them.

Other key scriptures:
1 Corinthians 9
Galatians 5:19
Leviticus 18:2,
Leviticus 20:13

A few more:
John 3:16
Hebrews 10:26
Romans 6:23
Revelation 21:8
1 Timothy 1:10
Ephesians 5:5-7
Matthew 25:41
Jude 1:7
Luke 13:24
Matthew 7:21
Matthew 25:46

 

[CadyandZoe]

Your belief that this design is exactly as you see it is just your belief.

Wrong again. Suppose an elementary school teacher shows the kids two blocks to the left and two blocks to the right. And as she brings them to the middle she says. "I have two blocks here: One - Two." She looks at the other stack and says, "Here I have another two blocks: One - Two." Then she slowly brings the blocks together and asks the class, "How many blocks do we have now?" Counting she says, "one, two, three, four. We now have four blocks. Two blocks plus two blocks equal four blocks." This is called empirical science. The kids learn addition and subtraction by observation. The kids don't believe that 2 + 2 = 4. They know 2 + 2 = 4, learning by observation.

I know that God created males and females, learning by observation. I can see that males have different reproductive organs than females and according to my own experience as a husband and a father, that 1 + 1 = 3.

It is a simple matter of deduction. A female-female orientation is contrary to design. Likewise, a male-male orientation is contrary to design. Neither will produce offspring. Therefore, logically speaking, orientation isn't part of the design, therefore it isn't an innate trait.

Follow me? The idea that we live in a rational and ordered universe isn't a matter of belief; it's a matter of deduction.

you just called (an action)a group of minorities and the people that make up those minorities "broken, bent, perverted, unsuitable, useless"

Yes, since LGBTQ are labels given to behavioral patterns engaged over time, they are actions, not states of being. And since such actions are contrary to design, such actions are perverted.

Consider the four-legged stool, missing one leg. Those who attempt to sit on the stool will hurt themselves or suffer embarrassment.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I have loads of evidence that being LGBT is not a pathology, is not a behavior and does not make people "broken, bent, perverted, unsuitable, useless" You have stated, more than once, that you will not look at such evidence as if closing your eyes will make it go away.

I maintain that your "evidence" is categorically false because it is based on a false worldview. Science isn't just a collection of facts. Facts need to be interpreted and as such, science is subject to misinterpretation and mischaracterization. You seem to have placed false hope in science because you doubt what your own eyes reveal.

You have not provided any actual evidence to support your claims.

I provided you with a rational basis for what I believe. A rational argument is true if the premises are true. You ask for "evidence" as if empiricism is the only basis for true truth. It isn't.

 

[CadyandZoe]

If your claims are as true as you say why is there no evidence to back them up? And how could it be possible that there is evidence that shows something very different from your view?

Again, what you call "evidence" is actually "scientific opinion", which is an "official" pronouncement of a group consensus. For this reason, the presence or absence of "evidence" is most likely due to orthodoxy. Science, as practiced today, is authoritarian-based knowledge. Scientific opinions that are "orthodox" are allowed publication; Scientific opinions that are considered "heterodox" are not allowed publication. Those who wish to maintain the dominant paradigm, invest heavily in scientific journals. Thus, rich oligarchs are the gatekeepers of "official knowledge." Every other truth claim, not officially recognized by the religion of science, is rejected as misinformation, or disinformation. Those who disagree, even those who have good reason to disagree, are tortured as those who distrust science.

Anyone who has lived through the past ten years with eyes wide open has seen this cultural phenomenon play out in real-time. People are dying because they trusted the science.

Because of this, I gave you a rational basis for what I believe, which relies on the most fundamental science of all. Going outside and taking a look around myself.

We can't trust "the science" until science has been freed from orthodoxy.

 

[TinMan]

Wrong again. Suppose an elementary school teacher shows the kids two blocks to the left and two blocks to the right. And as she brings them to the middle she says. "I have two blocks here: One - Two." She looks at the other stack and says, "Here I have another two blocks: One - Two." Then she slowly brings the blocks together and asks the class, "How many blocks do we have now?" Counting she says, "one, two, three, four. We now have four blocks. Two blocks plus two blocks equal four blocks." This is called empirical science. The kids learn addition and subtraction by observation. The kids don't believe that 2 + 2 = 4. They know 2 + 2 = 4, learning by observation.

I know that God created males and females, learning by observation. I can see that males have different reproductive organs than females and according to my own experience as a husband and a father, that 1 + 1 = 3.

It is a simple matter of deduction. A female-female orientation is contrary to design. Likewise, a male-male orientation is contrary to design. Neither will produce offspring. Therefore, logically speaking, orientation isn't part of the design, therefore it isn't an innate trait.

Follow me? The idea that we live in a rational and ordered universe isn't a matter of belief; it's a matter of deduction.

Homosexuality exists in all societies everywhere and at the same steady portion of the population.
Homosexuality does not meet even the most basic criteria for a pathology.
Homosexuality does not meet even the most basic criteria for a mental illness.
Decades of research has found no common experience among homosexuals.
The traits common to homosexuals are all biological.
So far six genetic markers associated with homosexuality have been identified.
Orientation is lifelong and unchanging.
we live in a rational and ordered universe with a staggering amount of variation. Logically speaking orientation is an innate trait and that is a matter of deduction.

 

[TinMan]

I maintain that your "evidence" is categorically false because it is based on a false worldview. Science isn't just a collection of facts. Facts need to be interpreted and as such, science is subject to misinterpretation and mischaracterization. You seem to have placed false hope in science because you doubt what your own eyes reveal.

You keep saying i doubt what my eyes se but you won't even open your eyes

I provided you with a rational basis for what I believe.

Flat earthers can do the same, but forgive me if i won't worry about falling off the edge of the planet

A rational argument is true if the premises are true. You ask for "evidence" as if empiricism is the only basis for true truth. It isn't.

But you cannot show evidence for your premises.

 

[TinMan]

Again, what you call "evidence" is actually "scientific opinion", which is an "official" pronouncement of a group consensus.

You refuse to look at it, so how do you know?

For this reason, the presence or absence of "evidence" is most likely due to orthodoxy. Science, as practiced today, is authoritarian-based knowledge. Scientific opinions that are "orthodox" are allowed publication; Scientific opinions that are considered "heterodox" are not allowed publication.

Evidence?

Those who wish to maintain the dominant paradigm, invest heavily in scientific journals. Thus, rich oligarchs are the gatekeepers of "official knowledge." Every other truth claim, not officially recognized by the religion of science, is rejected as misinformation, or disinformation. Those who disagree, even those who have good reason to disagree, are tortured as those who distrust science.

And yet in the last yar or so astronomy and astro physics have been flooded with research that contradicted the basics of these fields....the scientists making the discoveries were not ostracized or rejected and there was no publication censorship. Astronomy and astrophysics are rewriting themselves based on. You are wrong about science.

Anyone who has lived through the past ten years with eyes wide open has seen this cultural phenomenon play out in real-time. People are dying because they trusted the science.

and how many are alive now beciase of science?

Because of this, I gave you a rational basis for what I believe, which relies on the most fundamental science of all. Going outside and taking a look around myself.

We can't trust "the science" until science has been freed from orthodoxy.

You are the one arguing form orthodoxy.

 

[Wrangler]

Homosexuality exists in all societies everywhere and at the same steady portion of the population.

So does murder. Both are sins.

 

[Wrangler]

Logically speaking orientation is an innate trait and that is a matter of deduction.

Like rape and other criminal, immoral behavior. Although you don’t explicitly say it, you imply ‘orientation’ claims qualify so that one may act against God’s will with impunity.

 

[Jack]

Like rape and other criminal, immoral behavior. Although you don’t explicitly say it, you imply ‘orientation’ claims qualify so that one may act against God’s will with impunity.

He has clearly rejected the Christian Bible.

 

[TinMan]

So does murder. Both are sins.

Murder? Not Pedophilia? Pedophilia is usually the go to lie when promoting hate.

 

[Wrangler]

Murder? Not Pedophilia? Pedophilia is usually the go to lie when promoting hate.

You hate. You hate God.