Let's discuss..cessation after death?

[marks]

and I was a good boxer in my hay day...

as so the boxing references!

:)

 

[Johann]

Hopefully not just beating the air!

No 50/50..round number two...
J.

 

[Johann]

as so the boxing references!

lol!

 

[The Disciple John]

Colossians 3:1-4 LITV
1) If, then, you were raised with Christ, seek the things above, where Christ is sitting at the right of God; Psa. 110:1
2) mind the things above, not the things on the earth.
3) For you died, and your life has been hidden with Christ in God.
4) Whenever Christ our life is revealed, then also you will be revealed with Him in glory.

If you were raised with Him, you have died with Him, and you will be revealed in glory with Him.

Much love!

I explained, using scripture. Raised how? They were dead in their sins; made alive (spiritually) - raised.
They seek the things above - their inheritance, and they need to go on seeking... until they receive their heavenly calling.
If they continue... fine. If not... sorry.
2 Timothy 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us

Have they gone to heaven? No. Is any part of them in heaven. No 2 Corinthians 5:1-2. ...well one thing is.
Ephesians 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
The desire of their heart is.

That's it.
Philippians 3:20 For our citizenship is in heaven; whence also we wait for a Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
Colossians 1:5

 

[The Disciple John]

I'm looking for good and friendly discussion, and I appreciate this is what you provide for me, thank you!!

Things run all over the map sometimes, and in fact I comb back through threads looking for things I've not addressed and that I feel I should, but sometimes it takes time, and sometimes things are forgotten or overlooked. Feel free to repost or otherwise direct my attention.

Sometimes also I endeavor to address certain points together, and that may not communicate well, perhaps.

Much love!

All it takes is answering the question there and then, instead of ... avoiding, or trying to avoid it? What is so hard about answering a question in one post.
If people didn't answer your question, but were dodgy, I don't see why you would not think they were dodging, or trying to... not putting words in your mouth.

 

[marks]

I explained, using scripture. Raised how? They were dead in their sins; made alive (spiritually) - raised.
They seek the things above - their inheritance, and they need to go on seeking... until they receive their heavenly calling.
If they continue... fine. If not... sorry.
2 Timothy 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us

Have they gone to heaven? No. Is any part of them in heaven. No 2 Corinthians 5:1-2. ...well one thing is.
Ephesians 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
The desire of their heart is.

That's it.
Philippians 3:20 For our citizenship is in heaven; whence also we wait for a Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
Colossians 1:5

It seems that the way you've found to bring "harmony" to seemingly disparate passages is to modify the saying of one of them, and I don't believe that brings true understanding of the Bible, and God's message to us.

I believe the true meaning, the correct interpretation of a passage will absolutely never disagree with the plain saying of that passage as written.

We can't just say that because we understand one passage to mean such and such, that this other passage, you just have to insert a thought that's not actually there, such as a "hidden condition" into Colossians 3, for instance.

If you've been raised with Him, this passage, among other things, tells us three specific facts of our new reality in Christ. One is that we've died, the second that our life is hid with Christ in God, and the third is that when He appears we also will appear with Him in Glory.

Paul does not include "that is, IF you've been adequately obedient/faithful", or some other condition. No, only that those who were raised with Him have died, and will appear with Him in glory.

So the question is, do you not believe that is true as stated? It sounds like in this particular passage, you do not believe the saying from Scripture.

I encourage you to believe God's word, and if you find you need to change some of your ideas, it will be a liberating experience, I guarantee you!

Much love!

 

[marks]

All it takes is answering the question there and then, instead of ... avoiding, or trying to avoid it? What is so hard about answering a question in one post.
If people didn't answer your question, but were dodgy, I don't see why you would not think they were dodging, or trying to... not putting words in your mouth.

No, you shouldn't try to put words in my mouth, it's doubtful to me you'd be at all accurate.

Much love!

 

[The Disciple John]

No, you shouldn't try to put words in my mouth, it's doubtful to me you'd be at all accurate.

Much love!

I agree. ;)
So we start on a fresh slate, and agree to answer questions with our response?

Regarding "soul sleep", I heard that expression, but I don't know what it means to different people. So, in order to answer your question, I need to understand what you mean by soul sleep... or, I could just explain, what happens at death.

Come to think of it, I remember explaining that before.
I got quite a surprise when I realized it was marks I explained it to. :)

 

[The Disciple John]

It seems that the way you've found to bring "harmony" to seemingly disparate passages is to modify the saying of one of them, and I don't believe that brings true understanding of the Bible, and God's message to us.

I believe the true meaning, the correct interpretation of a passage will absolutely never disagree with the plain saying of that passage as written.

We can't just say that because we understand one passage to mean such and such, that this other passage, you just have to insert a thought that's not actually there, such as a "hidden condition" into Colossians 3, for instance.

If you've been raised with Him, this passage, among other things, tells us three specific facts of our new reality in Christ. One is that we've died, the second that our life is hid with Christ in God, and the third is that when He appears we also will appear with Him in Glory.

Paul does not include "that is, IF you've been adequately obedient/faithful", or some other condition. No, only that those who were raised with Him have died, and will appear with Him in glory.

So the question is, do you not believe that is true as stated? It sounds like in this particular passage, you do not believe the saying from Scripture.

I encourage you to believe God's word, and if you find you need to change some of your ideas, it will be a liberating experience, I guarantee you!

Much love!

Not sure where I inserted anything.
So let's start from the top then. What are you saying goes to heaven with Christ - a) the person; b) the person's spirit; c) other... please explain.

 

[marks]

Not sure where I inserted anything.
So let's start from the top then. What are you saying goes to heaven with Christ - a) the person; b) the person's spirit; c) other... please explain.

I'm interested in your basic stance on this. I've made mine clear, I think. I'm thinking I'm correctly surmising your POV, but I'm much more interested in your clarity. It would be more to me like a discussion, than you attempting to pick through my ideas to find which ones you'd like to correct.

Do you know what I mean?

Much love!

 

[marks]

I understand.

Going with 1 Corinthians 15:35-38, the person dies.
What is death?

Death is the opposite of life.
Death is a state of unconsciousness, and cessation of life, where the soul (life) is taken away, and the soul (person) ceases to exist... with only one way of getting it back (Psalms 104:30).
Death is described in the Bible at numerous scriptures.
Genesis 3:19; Psalms 104:29; Psalms 145:4; Ecclesiastes 3:20; Ecclesiastes 12:7
Nothing survives death.​

His life is restored by God.
How?

John 5:28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the μνημεῖον will hear His voice.
Did you notice the Greek word? Those dead, are in Gods memory... at least if one is not judged as wicked.​

Thus God restores them to life, and gives them a body... of his choosing. It is either a physical body, if the person will live on earth, or a spirit body - an immortal one - if the person will live in heaven. 1 Corinthians 15:39-49

Hope that's clearer. :)

OK, thanks! This can be an active forum, and I often post on various threads, and my memory for posts has not improved with age, I think!

Your view then is that a person who dies ceases to exist in any form, and then is reconstituted in the resurrection, recreated a new, though identical being. Is that correct?

I personally find this in direct conflict with quite a number of places in the Bible that clearly say otherwise. For instance Samuel speaking to Saul. Either you believe the Bible to be true, or you don't. All arguments aside. Here, the only thing to debate is whether that is an accurate translation. I think it is. If that is so, then we should just believe what it says.

Much love!

 

[The Disciple John]

I'm interested in your basic stance on this. I've made mine clear, I think. I'm thinking I'm correctly surmising your POV, but I'm much more interested in your clarity. It would be more to me like a discussion, than you attempting to pick through my ideas to find which ones you'd like to correct.

Do you know what I mean?

Much love!

You haven't made it clear to me. Here we go again. sigh.
You said living spirit, and I have not one inkling of what that means.
I can't have a discussion with someone who isn't willing to explain themselves, or answer questions in an attempt to understand them. Can you?

 

[The Disciple John]

OK, thanks! This can be an active forum, and I often post on various threads, and my memory for posts has not improved with age, I think!

Your view then is that a person who dies ceases to exist in any form, and then is reconstituted in the resurrection, recreated a new, though identical being. Is that correct?

I personally find this in direct conflict with quite a number of places in the Bible that clearly say otherwise. For instance Samuel speaking to Saul. Either you believe the Bible to be true, or you don't. All arguments aside. Here, the only thing to debate is whether that is an accurate translation. I think it is. If that is so, then we should just believe what it says.

Much love!

I find no conflict with scripture. Conflict with your beliefs, yes.
If you are willing to express those conflicts you see, I am willing to hear, and discuss them. It's up to you... evidently.

 

[marks]

I find no conflict with scripture. Conflict with your beliefs, yes.

The Bible says that Samuel spoke with Saul after Samuel had died. You say that Samuel ceased to exist when he died. The Bible's statement that Saul spoke with Samuel takes precedent to me over your POV that Samuel had ceased to exist.

This does not seem like a conflict?

How do you reconcile these without outright saying the passage is false?

Much love!

 

[marks]

You haven't made it clear to me. Here we go again. sigh.
You said living spirit, and I have not one inkling of what that means.
I can't have a discussion with someone who isn't willing to explain themselves, or answer questions in an attempt to understand them. Can you?

It's OK, the other post clarified this for me.

Much love!

 

[The Disciple John]

The Bible says that Samuel spoke with Saul after Samuel had died. You say that Samuel ceased to exist when he died. The Bible's statement that Saul spoke with Samuel takes precedent to me over your POV that Samuel had ceased to exist.

This does not seem like a conflict?

How do you reconcile these without outright saying the passage is false?

Much love!

If one is willing to dismiss scriptures likes Ecclesiastes 9:5-10; Psalms 88:10; Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4; Isaiah 38:18; John 11:11, and say one or two of those verses are false beliefs, sure, they get to choose to see the scriptures supporting their beliefs.

They agree with all I have said. Saul listened to a demon. Not Samuel.
God stopped speaking to Saul... period.
The only way any faithful person would speak what God had already spoken through Samuel, would be by God.
If you think God brought up Samuel, that would be amusing to me.
A witch - a spirit medium - one who practices divination - aka a worshiper of demons, brought up "Samuel"... yes, a demon. Samuel was dead. D e a d.

In harmony with scripture, Samuel is unconscious - unable to do anything. No conflict there.
They conflict with your beliefs... which, as I said before, you want to hold on to.
Your choice. :)

 

[marks]

In harmony with scripture, Samuel is unconscious - unable to do anything. No conflict there.

Again the conflict you have is that God said that Samuel spoke to Saul, but you claim that is not true, Samuel emphatically did not speak to Saul, and at this part, for your POV to be correct, that statement of the Bible must be false and deceptive.

Hard to imagine you can't see this. I expect you actually do, but what of it?

Much love!

 

[The Disciple John]

Again the conflict you have is that God said that Samuel spoke to Saul, but you claim that is not true, Samuel emphatically did not speak to Saul, and at this part, for your POV to be correct, that statement of the Bible must be false and deceptive.

Hard to imagine you can't see this. I expect you actually do, but what of it?

Much love!

No need to imagine. Just think of how it's possible for you to see the dead living and aware, when the Bible clearly says they are dead, and not conscious of anything.

Maybe try this... It's clear that there are many "Christians", but few Christians.
That statement is true. Similarly, this statement is true... "Samuel" said to Saul...
Children read that, and have no problem understanding that quotations render the quoted word, as an imitation, and not the real thing.

When the Bible was originally penned, there were no punctuation marks. It was up to the translators to get it right.
Take Luke 23:43
Truly I tell you, today you will be with me...
Or...
Truly I tell you today, you will be with me...

Makes quite a difference, doesn't it. ;)
There is no conflict. "Samuel" - the demon - said to Saul...

 

[The Disciple John]

@marks so as you see, I answered your questions directly, clearly, scripturally, and unhesitatingly. Would you be willing to do the same?

I would like to know how do you reconcile your belief that the dead are living on in another form, with the following scriptures?

Ecclesiastes 9:5-10
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
...
10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do [it] with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in Sheol, whither thou goest.

Psalms 115:17
The dead praise not Jehovah, Neither any that go down into silence;

Psalms 146:4
His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; In that very day his thoughts perish.

Isaiah 38:18
For Sheol cannot praise thee, death cannot celebrate thee: They that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.

John 11:11
These things spake he: and after this he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus is fallen asleep; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

 

[marks]

Makes quite a difference, doesn't it. ;)
There is no conflict. "Samuel" - the demon - said to Saul...

At the end of the day, the Bible says this was Samuel, and you say it was not, and I believe the Bible over you.

Regarding further discussion, if you are unable to recognize or admit such a simple and plain implication of your POV, I see little point to continue. And I've not seen much reason anyway. The adamant denial of such simple statements does make a big difference, yes, in my opinion.

Much love!