Let's discuss..cessation after death?

[Johann]

And based on the same verses, I would think so!

Yes? Why?

 

[GEN2REV]

You want to meet him?

Yeah.

Or you can just answer the question and tell us who he is.

Assuming it's a he.

 

[amadeus]

Guess not

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever. Day and night there is no rest for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name."

Consider that the smoke rises forever and ever long after the torment and the tormented have ceased to exist.

If a star located 50 lightyears away from us was destroyed 10 years ago, would we not continue to see its light for 40 years after it is gone. Is that possible?

 

[amadeus]

You mean, in the sense that the "dead people" in hell are "unconscious?"


Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

I would say no

Consider, however, if the place into which we were born to our natural mothers was hell. Would we not have been spirits in prison who heard the Word of God preached to us? Then receiving what we heard, it was quickened with us. We were resurrected. We were born again. A whole new beginning! An opportunity to do what Adam and Eve failed to do.

 

[Johann]

If a star located 50 lightyears away from us was destroyed 10 years ago, would we not continue to see its light for 40 years after it is gone. Is that possible?

Dear friend, can you tell me who first started this doctrine of "Annihilation of the soul?"

 

[BarneyFife]

Some people teach annihilationism, poof and you’re gone, which is a lie.

But, Johann, my Brother, whom I love, the destruction of the wicked is not "poof and you're gone."

Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer for many days. All are punished “according to their deeds.” Satan is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames, the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch—Satan the root, his followers the branches.

Revelation 22:12 KJV: And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

What is the punishment for sin?
"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Rom. 6:23.
NOTE: This is the very opposite of eternal life. Everlasting punishment, then, is everlasting death, a death that lasts forever.

How many deaths are there for the wicked?
"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murders, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death." Rev. 21:8.
NOTE: Good and bad men are alike subject to the first death, but this is a temporal death, which lasts only till the resurrection. After the cases of all men are settled in the judgment, the wicked then die the second death, which is eternal in its effects.

In this fire will there be torment? and how long will it last?
"He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever." Rev. 14:10, 11.
NOTE: The Greek term translated in this text "forever and ever," has different meanings; according to the connection in which it is used, such as, duration, finite or infinite; unlimited duration, past or future; time, age, lifetime; the world, universe. Greenfield.

How is the term understood in the case of certain Hebrew servants?
"His master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him forever." Ex. 21:6.
NOTE. - He could not serve his master longer than he lived.

For how long a time did Samuel's mother lend him to the Lord to serve in the temple?
"I will bring him, that he may appear before the Lord, and there abide forever." "Therefore also I have lent him to the Lord; as long as he liveth he shall be lent to the Lord." 1 Sam. 1:22, 28.
NOTE. - In this case it is definitely stated to be ''as long as he liveth." Had Samuel lived only a week or a month, the "forever" would have been limited to a week or a month. It is evident that the term "forever" often means "limited duration."

How long was Jonah carried in the whale's belly through the depths?
"I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me forever." Jonah 2:6.
NOTE: In this case "forever" is limited to three days.


What is the nature of the fire into which the wicked will finally be cast?
"Then shall He say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from Me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the Devil and his angels." Matt. 25:41.

What is said of this fire in another place?
"He will thoroughly purge His floor, and gather His wheat into the garner; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." Matt. 3:12.
NOTE: The fire is said to be everlasting because it is not "quenched." If fire is quenched after taking hold upon a house, the structure is saved; but if the fire is unquenchable, it does for the house just what the last quoted text says it will do with the chaff (the wicked) namely burn it up. Such a fire is called "everlasting," because it lasts as long as there is anything for it to prey upon, and because its results are everlasting.

Has everlasting or eternal fire ever been visited upon men in the past?
"Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." Jude 7.

What was the result of this eternal fire upon those cities?
"And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly." 2 Peter 2:6.
NOTE: "Everlasting" fire converted these cities into ashes, and the apostle says they were made an ensample to those who should after live ungodly. We cannot for a moment suppose that those cities are now burning; for the saline waters of the Dead Sea rollover the very spot where they stood.

What will be the final effect of this fire on the wicked?
"Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power." 2 Thess. 1:9.

Where must one go to escape from the presence of the Lord and the glory of His power?
"Whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven; thou art there: ...if I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea, even there shall thy hand lead me." Ps. 139:7-10.
NOTE: A time is coming when the glory of the Lord shall fill the earth as the waters cover the sea (Hab. 2:14). That the wicked will have been punished (in the lake of fire surrounding and purifying our earth) "with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power," Then the righteous shall occupy the new earth, and shall "delight themselves in the abundance of peace." (Hab. 2:11; 2 Peter 3:10-13; Rev. 21:1, 5).


**The similarity of the varied use of Hebrew and Greek words meaning "forever" is quite striking--even in the Septuagint, I'm told. Folks who object to the perpetuity of the fourth commandment are quick to seize upon this until it comes time to start talking about eternal torment: Then, they insist the word(s) be translated: "FOREVER"

 

[Johann]

**The similarity of the varied use of Hebrew and Greek words meaning "forever" is quite striking--even in the Septuagint, I'm told. Folks who object to the perpetuity of the fourth commandment are quick to seize upon this until it comes time to start talking about eternal torment: Then, they insist the word(s) be translated: "FOREVER"

Barn, can you tell me who started this doctrine of total destruction/annihilation?
J.

 

[BarneyFife]

Dear friend, can you tell me who first started this doctrine of "Annihilation of the soul?"

God did it.

Genesis 2:7 KJV: And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Genesis 2:17 KJV: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

 

[GEN2REV]

You show bad fruit and I don't care who you are your'e profession of being a "Christian" is questionable.

His name is @Bible Highlighter

And have you met this individual in person or have you only communicated with them on a 2-dimensional computer screen with little black numbers and digits in boxes?

 

[BarneyFife]

Barn, can you tell me who started this doctrine of total destruction/annihilation?
J.

Do you believe the serpent--the father of lies-- was telling the truth?

Genesis 3:4 KJV: And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
Genesis 3:5 KJV: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.​

 

[Johann]

"FOREVER"

Mat_25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

How would you explain this? Figurative, literal?

Do you believe the serpent--the father of lies-- was telling the truth?

 

[BarneyFife]

KJV not consistent? Causing confusion?
Here's one for you. Jason told me not to use dictionaries and lexicons yet he wrote page after page with dictionaries to disprove "everlasting' AND THAT THE UNBELIEVERS WILL BE TORMENTED "FOR A WHILE" and then be totally annihilated...here's my question.
How long is the "after a while?"
It is very late here 23:50 midnight.
I get a "check" in my spirit..Praise God I have been liberated from Calvinism, but I still have that "check" in my spirit as the Holy Spirit is co-jointly witnessing with my spirit...
Will take this up tomorrow, after all, I am tired.
J.
Or PM me.

I'm afraid poor Brother Jason has a frightful case of the King James-onlies. He cannot be reasoned with concerning it.

 

[Johann]

And have you met this individual in person

No, I have not met him in person.

 

[Johann]

I'm afraid poor Brother Jason has a frightful case of the King James-onlies. He cannot be reasoned with concerning it.

Barney, told you I opened up a can of worms.

Mat_25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

How would you explain this, literal or figurative?

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Many are uncomfortable with the topic re Hell and everlasting damnation.
Is total annihilation biblical?


Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.


1) "And In hell he lift up his eyes," (kai en to hade eparas tous ophthalmous autou) "And in the hades (place of torments, called hell) he lifted up his eyes," the holding place (abode) of the souls of the responsible unbelievers after death. It is a place of conscious torments, Luk_13:28; Rev_14:10-11.

2) "Being in torments," (huparchon en basanois) "Being or existing in torments," in mental, emotional, and spiritual state and place (location) of torments, with every sense-faculty of body and spirit that he had while living, to see, hear, taste, feel and to think, His final damnation was yet future, Rev_20:11; Rev_20:15.
Garner

There are scripture verses that do seem to imply cessation and there are others verses that don't

let us search the scriptures alone and not commentaries.

"Anionios" is the key word. It has variable meanings and I can give examples, but for now, let me expound on the following: If
anioios is used to describe God, His domain or our salvatiin (in a forward direction) it means eternal. If it is used to describe our temporal physical realm (the universe and everything in it), it means ages, lifetimes, generations, epochs - all temporal periods of time. Now if Hades (which is not Hell btw) is part of the earth, the underworld, the lower parts, even the Abyss/Bottomless Pit, then it too will pass away. "Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea."Rev. 21:1 Hades and Death are thrown into the LAKE OF FIRE (HELL) and destroyed (Revelation 20:14). After the Millennial kingdom, this event (2 Peter 3:10) will take place.
So suffering in a never ending chamber of torment is not God's plan. How can he be glorified by such a thing, tormenting forever billions of souls for a few years of sinning. It's like putting a child in prison for life for stealing a candy bar.
The reprobate as seen in Luke 16, suffer in Hades temporarily awaiting final Judgment of destruction.
That is the second important term.
You know the Greek for destruction, apoleia, (2 Corinthians 2:15; 4:3; Matthew 7:13 or some view it as punishment, Kolasij (as in Matthew 25:46 with the word for eternal). These terms are interchangable. We see even the word olethron, (2 Thessalonians 1:9) to mean extermination. Actually 2 Peter 3:10 describes this destruction with fervent heat/fire, totaling annihilating every physical former thing. Then the new heaven and new earth appear, without any trace of sin or evil anywhere.

I think the traditional Church assigned a different view/meaning to these words that are not real. It can't be an indestructible destruction or imperishable perishing. Paper is thrown in a fire and burns for a few seconds and is destroyed and that is how it will be for the ungodly souls (who btw will be resurrected with physical bodies for this very purpose). Other physical things take awhile longer to burn up. Destruction is temporal, something can't be destroyed over and over again endlessly! And punishment is something that is always temporary, we are punished so that we learn from our sin. Since eternal punishment has no recourse, or correction, what is the purpose? But there is an element punishment that we see criminals suffer in prison for life. They learn, but there is no escaping it in this life, but if they repent and turn to God, they may be saved from destruction in the next. The rest of us learn from their punishment, to avoid such crimes. Question: Would any of us, if we could, condemn a soul for eternal torment? Our hearts are not perfect like God's but still we could not agree to such a thing. Are then we more merciful than God? Even Hitler should suffer much, but still, that should come to an end and that what be merciful.
So at the end of time, the first heaven and first earth will be destroyed, with death and Hades, Satan and his horde, and all reprobates.
The Bible says there will be no more pain and suffering. Does that mean they just won't exist in Heaven but will in Hell? I live now without pain and suffering yet am aware that it exists elsewhere which saddens me. So in Heaven, if such a place like Hell existed forever, God would have to keep it a secret from us, erase it from our memories; for it would cause sadness and depression especially knowing that some of our family or friends didn't make it are there. There is only joy, peace and comfort in Heaven.

* terms like forever, everlasting should then be translated age-lasting or age-during

 

[BarneyFife]

Mat_25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

How would you explain this? Figurative, literal?

Perhaps neither or both. Souls aren't built to remain alive forever while burning and fire only burns until it runs out of fuel. Sodom and Gomorrah's flames have gone out. I understand it's a very emotional subject. I once had a Baptist pastor give me the most hateful look I've ever seen when he confronted me on this issue at work one day. He had found out I had converted from Southern Baptist to Seventh-day Adventist and he was fit to be tied.

But God is love.
Eternal torment is malicious tyrrany.
Justice and mercy indicate punishment equal to the crimes of the unrepentant.
Christ didn't suffer eternal torment, so if that's what we deserve, how could He be our Substitute in the judgment?
There is just as much evidence against it as there is for it.
I choose the side that vindicates God's character, that's all.

 

[BarneyFife]

Barney, told you I opened up a can of worms.

It's okay, Brother. God is on The Throne.

 

[Johann]

was telling the truth?

Let the reader now ask himself the question: Do these representations, and
this phraseology, make the impression that the future punishment of sin is
to be remedial and temporary?

 

[GEN2REV]

No, I have not met him in person.

And I'm the one who shows bad fruit?

Pretty naive, don't ya think?

 

[Johann]

It's okay, Brother. God is on The Throne.

Yes, He is on the Throne Barn'
J.