Keep The Sabbath ???

[Ancient]

No, those are two very different things. The good work that God has begun in us He will bring to completion at the Day of Christ, as Paul says in Philippians 1:6), the Day of Christ being when He returns, so I'm agreeing with you there. But John spoke/wrote of the Lord's day in Revelation 1:10 ~ "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day..." ~ two millennia ago, and it refers to the day Christ rose, the first day of the week, Sunday (John 20:19; Acts 20:7; 1 Corinthians 16:1-2).

Grace and peace to you, Ancient.

Ok agree to disagree. We will find out on the Day our Messiah returns. Important that this is not a salvation issue. Rev 1:7 refers to the second coming of Messiah Rev:10 refers back to Rev 1:7. This whole vision is in the future tense and not the present tense. Which fits what I was saying previously. One need to understand Hebrew idioms. Not rely on the English. These same idioms are used in the prophets.

Blessing and Shalom

 

[Ancient]

Understood. We disagree.


Again, disagree.

a.) Jesus was not observing the Sabbath the day before His resurrection. :)

b.) Yes, John was Jewish, but John, unlike most Jews of his day, was a believer in Christ, and therefore he was, like all we who believe today, in Christ. As such, I feel sure he would have agreed with what Paul said late in Romans 2 about just who true Jews are, and in Romans 9-11 about just who makes up God's Israel. Even so, God, the ultimate author of the Bible (all Scripture is God-breathed), is really the One Who said those things.

c.) In Acts 20:7, Luke is crystal clear that it was the practice of the early church to gather together on the first day of the week to break bread together. And in Revelation 1:10, John very clearly refers to the first day of the week, as in Acts 20:7 and 1 Corinthians 16:2, as the Lord's Day. There is, however, absolutely no evidence anywhere, much less in Scripture, that the early apostolic church continued Jesus's custom of going to the synagogue and observing the Sabbath. But they were not Law-breakers... :)


Not true at all. None of the Ten Commandments are nullified. There may be some out there who think that, but by and large no. I am a bit curious to hear why you think that... because of Constantine and the Council of Nicea in the fourth century? Even so, no.


This is an aside, but this is not a good parallel at all, respectfully. Just on the face of it, the state is given the power of the sword. That certainly does not mean that power is always used well or even justly by the state. And it does not mean that one killing another in war is never murder; it is possible for one to commit murder when killing another person in a state-sanctioned war. But generally speaking, such is not the case. There is a difference between killing, in the case of a person killing under the purview of the state in a war, and murder.

Grace and peace to you.

Yeshua (Jesus) did observe the Sabbath before His resurrection and He also kept His own Feasts here are two examples

NKJ Luke 4:16 So He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. And as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read.

Lk. 2:41-42 NKJ
41 His parents went to Jerusalem every year at the Feast of the Passover.
42 And when He was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem according to the custom of the feast.

Yes these were observed by our Messiah. Paul and the other apostles continued to observe them decades after the death and resurrection of our Messiah.

Here is an example of Paul

NKJ 1 Corinthians 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

KEEP THE FEAST!!! Nothing here to suggest that they were not keeping the Feast. Also it is imperative to understand that according to Lev 23 The Feast Days of Yahweh were also regarded as Sabbath Days no matter what day of the week they fell on.

Blessings and Shalom

 

[Ancient]

Both!

Moses recorded what Yahweh said. Moses did not come up with this by himself. So no it was not both. Going along that logic we would have the Laws of Paul, Peter, John etc. They simply inspired by the Holy Spirit just like the prophets of old.

Blessings and Shalom

 

[Ancient]

And if you read Paul's Scriptures you will find:

Galatians 3
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them."

Yes works without the Messiah does not save you. Messiah does not cancel out the law. What is the curse of the Law? When one breaks a law they are then under that Law. Like a speeding fine. If you get caught speeding you are under that particular law. When you pay the "Price" weather that is financial or being locked up for a period of time and then released you are no longer under that law. However that does not mean the Law is finished and done away with. If you went out speeding again and get caught you would be under once again.

Galatians 3:10 must be understood in context with the whole letter beginning at Gal 1:1 through to Gal 6:18. One cannot just pick out 1 verse as say tada there you have it. The original letter did not have chapters and verses. They did not receive the Letter and say of let's go to Chapter 3 verse 10. No they read from the start read through till the end. Understand the context of the whole letter 1st.

Blessings and Shalom

 

[Ancient]

Exodus 31
Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

Jesus was with His disciples working on the Sabbath. Did Jesus sin? Not my Jesus!

When did Jesus work?

 

[Raccoon1010]

Regarding the Sabbath: As Ancient pointed out they did keep the Sabbath, Jesus and the apostles, but they also did the Lord's work on the Sabbath which makes it slightly different. Jesus said, "is it lawful to do good on the Sabbath"? And that was the point. We are not to work on the Sabbath but we can do the Lord's will and work on the Sabbath.

Jesus came to fulfill the Law not to abolish it. So yes the Sabbath is still law.

 

[quietthinker]

Understood. We disagree. Again, disagree.


a.) Jesus was not observing the Sabbath the day before His resurrection. :)

He was resting. Don't you think that qualifies for remembering the Sabbath day? :)
Ever wonder why he didn't rise on the 7th day? I think he was making a point. :)

b.) Yes, John was Jewish, but John, unlike most Jews of his day, was a believer in Christ, and therefore he was, like all we who believe today, in Christ. As such, I feel sure he would have agreed with what Paul said late in Romans 2 about just who true Jews are, and in Romans 9-11 about just who makes up God's Israel. Even so, God, the ultimate author of the Bible (all Scripture is God-breathed), is really the One Who said those things.

c.) In Acts 20:7, Luke is crystal clear that it was the practice of the early church to gather together on the first day of the week to break bread together. And in Revelation 1:10, John very clearly refers to the first day of the week, as in Acts 20:7 and 1 Corinthians 16:2, as the Lord's Day.

Meeting on the first day of the week to break bread or put money aside or any other day for that matter, does not qualify as the Sabbath. The texts you have quoted Acts 20:7 and 1 Corinthians 16:2 to underpin that it was the Lord's Day they met don't even suggest it was the Lord's Day. I think that's wishful thinking. You have assumed the Lords Day is the first day of the week but intellectual honesty admits that this idea is an overlay. Jesus said he was Lord of the Sabbath, Matthew 12:8. (the context being his reply to the nit picking Pharisee's) Here he qualifies which day he is Lord of.

There is, however, absolutely no evidence anywhere, much less in Scripture, that the early apostolic church continued Jesus's custom of going to the synagogue and observing the Sabbath. But they were not Law-breakers... :)

They were Jews. There was no reason not to continue in the Jewish custom of the Commandment. In Revelation John identified the day Jesus spoke to him as the Lord's Day....this being the 7th day which he was still remembering 60 odd years later


Not true at all. None of the Ten Commandments are nullified.

If they are not nullified or changed, the 4th Commandment reads like this,

Exodus 20:8-11
8 “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

I'd say that qualifies as the Lord's Day. God created it specifically. Have you wondered why? because he didn't need to rest .......and, I'd be interested to hear what you think 'blessing it and making it holy' might mean?

There may be some out there who think that, but by and large no. I am a bit curious to hear why you think that... because of Constantine and the Council of Nicea in the fourth century? Even so, no.


This is an aside, but this is not a good parallel at all, respectfully. Just on the face of it, the state is given the power of the sword. That certainly does not mean that power is always used well or even justly by the state. And it does not mean that one killing another in war is never murder; it is possible for one to commit murder when killing another person in a state-sanctioned war. But generally speaking, such is not the case. There is a difference between killing, in the case of a person killing under the purview of the state in a war, and murder.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Keturah]

 

[Keturah]

 

[Keturah]

 

[Jack]

Important that this is not a salvation issue.

Galatians 3
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse;

 

[Jack]

Moses recorded what Yahweh said. Moses did not come up with this by himself. So no it was not both. Going along that logic we would have the Laws of Paul, Peter, John etc. They simply inspired by the Holy Spirit just like the prophets of old.

Blessings and Shalom

God gave it to Moses. Moses recorded it.

John 7
19 Did not Moses give you the law, yet none of you keeps the law? Why do you seek to kill Me?"

 

[Jack]

When did Jesus work?

Jesus taught His disciples. Jesus was with His disciples while they were working on the "Sabbath". Jesus did not have them stoned as the Law COMMANDS. Christians are not under the Sabbath. Jesus gave us the New Covenant with His Blood.

 

[Behold]

I believe observing the Sabbath shows our commitment to honor and worship God and keep our covenants.

Its better to serve the Lord every day, vs, waiting on the Sabbath to do it.

I usually find that people who are obsessed with Shabbat, have a very difficult time understanding the "Gospel of the Grace of God" because they tend to be more interested in the Law of Moses, then they are familiar with the Cross of Christ.

 

[Jack]

Why do Sabbath preachers avoid the Sabbath COMMANDS?

Exodus 31
Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

 

[PinSeeker]

Ok agree to disagree. We will find out on the Day our Messiah returns. Important that this is not a salvation issue.

Sure, very well.

Rev 1:7 refers to the second coming of Messiah Rev:10 refers back to Rev 1:7.

I agree that 1:7 refers to Christ's return, but in 1:10, John is beginning his recounting of the vision that he received, and stating where he was and what he was doing at the outset. I'm really not sure what you mean by verse 10 referring back to verse seven, but... that's okay. :)

This whole vision is in the future tense and not the present tense.

To John, as he was relating it, for the most part, yes.

One need to understand Hebrew idioms. Not rely on the English. These same idioms are used in the prophets.

I don't think that's absolutely necessary, Ancient. The Word of God is what it is. But yes, John's Revelation is filled with references that can be further clarified by understanding at least to some degree certain Old Testament things, sure.

Yeshua (Jesus) did observe the Sabbath before His resurrection and He also kept His own Feasts...

Sure He did.

Here is an example of Paul

NKJ 1 Corinthians 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

Hm. Very interesting that you would bring this up. What I would say about 1 Corinthians 5:8 is, Paul is commanding the Christians in Corinth (and us, by extension) to gather as the church, and to drive home how important this is, Paul uses the metaphor of leavened bread during the Jewish Passover celebration. As you probably well know, Jewish Passover participants were to remove any trace of leaven from their homes and eat only unleavened bread during the Passover. In the previous verse, Paul wrote that the Christians in Corinth were already unleavened or purified, and this is because Christ, the Passover lamb, had already died to pay the price for all their sin. Now the time had come for the Corinthians to live up to what they already were.

So, yes, Paul calls them to celebrate the feast/festival, but he does not mean that they should observe the Passover celebration, but rather that they should always be in a spirit of celebrating the truth that Christ's blood had paid for their sin. For Christians, this in an ongoing reason to rejoice, not a once-a-year celebration. So, Paul is saying that those who are celebrating the forgiveness of their sins by the blood of Jesus must not do so while living in sin, the "leaven" ~ sinfulness, and thus impurity ~ of malice and evil. Such sin has no place among those who rejoice over being forgiven for their sin. Instead, such those rejoicing should live with the "unleavened bread" ~ sinlessness, purity ~ of sincerity and truth.

KEEP THE FEAST!!! Nothing here to suggest that they were not keeping the Feast.

Well, I agree, but not in the way that you mean it, I think. I think we should rejoice continuously, without ceasing... :) Again, always in a spirit of celebrating the truth that Christ's blood had paid for our sin.

...The Feast Days of Yahweh were also regarded as Sabbath Days no matter what day of the week they fell on.

Okay, sure. I would say this, that God's "appointed feasts" (Leviticus 23:2) were celebrations of God’s divine protection and provision. Each one recognized different aspects of God’s work of salvation in the lives of His people. Ultimately, these holy days, feasts, and festivals found their fulfillment in the life, ministry, death, and resurrection of Israel’s Messiah, Jesus Christ. I'm just saying that we Christians today are commanded to "keep the feast" in a different way than the Israelites of old were. You might call them "object lessons" (or something like that) that were needed in their day ~ they were looking forward to Christ's coming and His sacrifice ~ but that we are no longer in need of because we have the Real Thing ~ we are looking back at His sacrifice (and forward to His second coming, of course).

Grace and peace to you, Ancient.

 

[PinSeeker]

"Jesus was not observing the Sabbath the day before His resurrection."
He was resting. Don't you think that qualifies for remembering the Sabbath day?

Well, His body was "sleeping," in the tomb. We are never told what He was actually doing on that Sabbath day, but only know from what He said just before His death, as recorded in Luke 23, that He was in paradise (starting on Friday), and the thief crucified on His right was with Him. :)

Ever wonder why he didn't rise on the 7th day?

No. :) I mean, He did say, QuietThinker, that he would be three days in the tomb, just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish (Matthew 12:40). So, no.

I think he was making a point. :)

Well alrighty then. :)

Meeting on the first day of the week to break bread or put money aside or any other day for that matter, does not qualify as the Sabbath.

Agreed. But I don't think your point here (if there is one) is of any real relevance. No offense intended...

The texts you have quoted Acts 20:7 and 1 Corinthians 16:2 to underpin that it was the Lord's Day they met don't even suggest it was the Lord's Day. I think that's wishful thinking.

I... respect your opinion. :)

You have assumed the Lords Day is the first day of the week...

Nope...

Exodus 20:8-11
8 “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

I'd say that qualifies as the Lord's Day.

I agree with you here, QuietThinker... insofar as this goes. You seem to have... well, either missed or disregarded what I said about completion earlier. I'll expound on it again here:

Within the framework of God's laws, the Sabbath command has both a moral and a ceremonial element to it. The moral part of the commandment is seen in its inclusion in the Ten Commandments. The ceremonial element appears in that it was to be observed as the seventh day of the week until the coming of Christ. After the death and resurrection of Christ, the moral principle remains, but the ceremonial principle has changed. The ceremonial aspect of the Sabbath is embodied in the biblical emphasis on the symbolism of the number seven. From creation until the coming of Christ, the Sabbath was the seventh day of the week. In Scripture, the number seven connoted perfection or completion. The seventh-day Sabbath anticipated the finished work of Jesus for the salvation of His people. Having finished the work of redemption, Jesus rested in the grave on the old covenant Sabbath and rose from the grave in His resurrection on the first day of the week.

Debate over the continuation of the Sabbath today largely centers on the fact that there were ceremonial Sabbaths in the old covenant law that are no longer binding. These were distinct ceremonial Sabbath days at the end of festivals and ceremonies (Exodus 23:10-11; Leviticus 23). When the Apostle Paul stated, “Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath” (Colossians 2:16), he had special feast days, festivals, and ceremonial Sabbaths in mind ~ that is, the ceremonial laws given to Israel to foreshadow Christ. On the principle of a seven-day week, the first and the eighth days are one and the same. This is why Jesus showed Himself to His disciples “eight days” after His resurrection (John 20:26). The new covenant church accepted this change from the seventh to the first day of the week as the day of rest and worship, and we see that in Acts 20:7 and in Paul's telling the Corinthians to lay aside their giving when they were gathered together on “the first day of the week” in 1 Corinthians 16:2. The ceremonial purpose of the old covenant Sabbath ~ to remember God's completing His work of Creation ~ was fulfilled in Jesus ~ who completed His work of redemption of Creation on the cross and by defeating sin and death in His resurrection ~ so the Lord’s Day as the new covenant Sabbath is celebrated by His people on the first day of the week.

So, the continuance of the Sabbath day holds out the realities of forthcoming salvation and judgment. This, in turn, reflects the redemptive-historical shift from the Old Testament Sabbath to the Christian Lord’s Day in the resurrection of Jesus. The Apostle John spoke of being “in the Spirit on the Lord’s day” (Revelation 1:10). The writer of Hebrews reminds his readers, “There remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God” (Hebrews 4:9) and that we should not neglect the gathering of the saints (Hebrews 10:25). The weekly Sabbath reminds us that we are not yet home. The Lord’s Day is to be a day of rejoicing in and praising our Savior, who has finished the work of redemption.

God created it specifically. Have you wondered why? because he didn't need to rest .......and, I'd be interested to hear what you think 'blessing it and making it holy' might mean?

I would more or less agree with you here, too, I think, QuietThinker, except that it was really about setting it aside/apart, thereby consecrating/sanctifying it (which I think answers what you say you'd be interested to hear, here), and thereby celebrating the completion of the preceding work ~ which speaks to my point. So, no, I haven't ever really wondered why... :)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[mailmandan]

Why do Sabbath preachers avoid the Sabbath COMMANDS?

Exodus 31
Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

It's called cherry picking.

 

[Jack]

It's called cherry picking.

Bingo! I tried to think of the words but you're quicker than me!

 

[quietthinker]

Within the framework of God's laws, the Sabbath command has both a moral and a ceremonial element to it. The moral part of the commandment is seen in its inclusion in the Ten Commandments. The ceremonial element appears in that it was to be observed as the seventh day of the week until the coming of Christ. After the death and resurrection of Christ, the moral principle remains, but the ceremonial principle has changed. The ceremonial aspect of the Sabbath is embodied in the biblical emphasis on the symbolism of the number seven. From creation until the coming of Christ, the Sabbath was the seventh day of the week. In Scripture, the number seven connoted perfection or completion. The seventh-day Sabbath anticipated the finished work of Jesus for the salvation of His people. Having finished the work of redemption, Jesus rested in the grave on the old covenant Sabbath and rose from the grave in His resurrection on the first day of the week.

Debate over the continuation of the Sabbath today largely centers on the fact that there were ceremonial Sabbaths in the old covenant law that are no longer binding. These were distinct ceremonial Sabbath days at the end of festivals and ceremonies (Exodus 23:10-11; Leviticus 23). When the Apostle Paul stated, “Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath” (Colossians 2:16), he had special feast days, festivals, and ceremonial Sabbaths in mind ~ that is, the ceremonial laws given to Israel to foreshadow Christ. On the principle of a seven-day week, the first and the eighth days are one and the same. This is why Jesus showed Himself to His disciples “eight days” after His resurrection (John 20:26). The new covenant church accepted this change from the seventh to the first day of the week as the day of rest and worship, and we see that in Acts 20:7 and in Paul's telling the Corinthians to lay aside their giving when they were gathered together on “the first day of the week” in 1 Corinthians 16:2. The ceremonial purpose of the old covenant Sabbath ~ to remember God's completing His work of Creation ~ was fulfilled in Jesus ~ who completed His work of redemption of Creation on the cross and by defeating sin and death in His resurrection ~ so the Lord’s Day as the new covenant Sabbath is celebrated by His people on the first day of the week.

So, the continuance of the Sabbath day holds out the realities of forthcoming salvation and judgment. This, in turn, reflects the redemptive-historical shift from the Old Testament Sabbath to the Christian Lord’s Day in the resurrection of Jesus. The Apostle John spoke of being “in the Spirit on the Lord’s day” (Revelation 1:10). The writer of Hebrews reminds his readers, “There remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God” (Hebrews 4:9) and that we should not neglect the gathering of the saints (Hebrews 10:25). The weekly Sabbath reminds us that we are not yet home. The Lord’s Day is to be a day of rejoicing in and praising our Savior, who has finished the work of redemption.

This is quite an explanation PS.....the sum of it however in my thinking is that you have mixed imagination with truth. Here is an explanation...
Firstly, the word 'Sabbath' as you no doubt know means rest or a break from the regular routine of activity. As you also know, the word was applied to the various 'holy days' associated with festivals allocated in the Hebrew economy. These were known as ceremonial Sabbaths and were quite distinct from the 7th day Sabbath.

The ceremonial Sabbaths as were the various festivals, indeed a shadow and in a sense, 'prophecies' of redemption.
The 7th day Sabbath was never ceremonial; it is a memorial of Creation ......in fact if it had been remembered as such, the various theories of evolution would never have been entertained.

Conflating the ceremonial Sabbath with the 7th day Sabbath is a distinct and clever error. It eclipses why God created it and it muddies the water re the immutability of God's Commandments written in stone with his own finger. (consider how important that is)

Secondly, attempting to use NT scriptures to invalidate the 7th day Sabbath is an attempt at sabotage.....a clever one at that.

Labelling the 1st day of the week 'the Lord's day' citing the resurrection as a justification is without scriptural support.
It is clear from the story of creation which is the Lords Day; Jesus confirms it in his altercation with the Pharisees and John in Revelation tells us he had not forgotten it 60 odd years after the resurrection by referencing it.

To make it mean the Ist day rather than the 7th is indeed a slippery business.