Justified by Works

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Johann

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Did you have an answer for how the guy in Romans 14:23 is "condemned", whereas those "in Christ" have "no condemnation" (Ro 8:1)?

I do : My answer is he is not abiding in Christ.
4) "For whatsoever is not of faith, is sin", (hamartia estin pan de he ouk ek pisteos hamartia estin) "And all which is (exists) not out of faith is sin, exists as sin"; Though it be what would otherwise be lawful and right, Heb_11:6; Tit_1:15.
The central thought of this chapter is that all who are "in the faith", though weak, are to be received into the membership of the church by the congregation, Rom_14:1. Thereafter they are to be taught the word of truth as babes with weak consciences; those who are stronger in faith and knowledge should restrain themselves, even in doing right, from anything that might be an offence to or cause a weaker Christian to stumble, fall, quit or go back into his own ways of sinful indulgence.

BETTER BE SURE THAN SORRY

"Better be sure than sorry!" said a garden-worker, when his employer expressed a doubt whether it was necessary to cover a certain vegetation to protect it from frost. A man who is not sure is very likely to be sorry. It would be a terrible thing to be mistaken in the final day; it is better to be sure here than to be sorry at the judgment-seat of Christ.
-Christian Journal

J.
 
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uncle silas

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Did you have an answer for how the guy in Romans 14:23 is "condemned", whereas those "in Christ" have "no condemnation" (Ro 8:1)?

I do : My answer is he is not abiding in Christ.
I thought we had agreed. He, like you does things he knows he should not do. You simply tell God you are sorry for what you have done and believe you are forgiven. Would that not also apply to the person in Rom14:23?
You didnt address my point. I assume you believe Christians continually flip flop between a justified, and unjustified state
 
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GracePeace

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4) "For whatsoever is not of faith, is sin", (hamartia estin pan de he ouk ek pisteos hamartia estin) "And all which is (exists) not out of faith is sin, exists as sin"; Though it be what would otherwise be lawful and right, Heb_11:6; Tit_1:15.
The central thought of this chapter is that all who are "in the faith", though weak, are to be received into the membership of the church by the congregation, Rom_14:1. Thereafter they are to be taught the word of truth as babes with weak consciences; those who are stronger in faith and knowledge should restrain themselves, even in doing right, from anything that might be an offence to or cause a weaker Christian to stumble, fall, quit or go back into his own ways of sinful indulgence.

BETTER BE SURE THAN SORRY

"Better be sure than sorry!" said a garden-worker, when his employer expressed a doubt whether it was necessary to cover a certain vegetation to protect it from frost. A man who is not sure is very likely to be sorry. It would be a terrible thing to be mistaken in the final day; it is better to be sure here than to be sorry at the judgment-seat of Christ.
-Christian Journal

J.
Yep!
God calls people to peace--"The circumcised shouldn't become uncircumcised, the uncircumcised shouldn't become circumcised", the Jew doesn't need to eat pork, the Gentile doesn't need to observe the Sabbath, but we should remain as He called us, and let Him guide us into truth from the state of our present convictions, NOT overstepping those boundaries of conviction, even if they are incomplete or inaccurate (the one with vegan conviction CANNOT break those convictions, the Jew who thinks Sabbath is to be kept must keep it), and God will lead us into greater truth from that point.
 

GracePeace

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I thought we had agreed. He, like you does things he knows he should not do. You simply tell God you are sorry for what you have done and believe you are forgiven. Would that not also apply to the person in Rom14:23?
You didnt address my point. I assume you believe Christians continually flip flop between a justified, and unjustified state
YES, God forgives... but, again, this proves that faith is something to be WALKED in, not merely to be HELD.

As far as to whether Christians can "fluctuate" in justification : John, himself, warns the spiritually immature, the "little children", to remain in Christ or else they will shrink back in shame at His appearance... why would they be ashamed except for not being clothed with Christ because of not remaining in Him (and we know remaining in Him is by faith in the Name of God's Son and loving others/walking by faith 1 Jn 3:23,24)?

Probably as you mature, you get stronger, and it doesn't occur as frequently.
 
J

Johann

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Yep!
God calls people to peace--"The circumcised shouldn't become uncircumcised, the uncircumcised shouldn't become circumcised", the Jew doesn't need to eat pork, the Gentile doesn't need to observe the Sabbath, but we should remain as He called us, and let Him guide us into truth from the state of our present convictions, NOT overstepping those boundaries of conviction, even if they are incomplete or inaccurate (the one with vegan conviction CANNOT break those convictions, the Jew who thinks Sabbath is to be kept must keep it), and God will lead us into greater truth from that point.
Rom_14:23

But he who doubts -- He that is not fully satisfied in his mind; who does not do it with a clear conscience.

doubts -- This refers to the weak Christian who does not understand the true implications of Christian belief in this area of opinions. It is not a sin to have this inadequate understanding or to have doubts about such things as eating meat offered to idols, though it would certainly be better to come to a right understanding of such things. But it is wrong, in the presence of these doubts, to go ahead and eat the meat anyway. - CP

is condemned -- This is a PERFECT PASSIVE INDICATIVE from kata + krinō, meaning (1) “placed in a guilty light by contrast” (cf. Harold K. Moulton, The analytical Greek Lexicon Revised, p. 216) -Utley

The one who says eating the meat is wrong, but does so anyway, places himself in a guilty light; condemning himself by what he himself has said.
The "condemnatin" is not from God, but himself.

condemned -- This word is κατακρίνω (katakrinō), an intensified form of krinō; it leaves no doubt that eating or doing anything else contrary to one’s conscience is condemned by God as a sin. - CPNIVC

is condemn -- We apply this word almost exclusively to the future punishment of the wicked in hell. But it is of importance to remember, in reading the Bible, that this is not of necessity its meaning. It means properly to “condemn;” and here it means only that the person who should thus violate the dictates of his conscience would incur guilt, and would be blameworthy in doing it. But it does not affirm that he would inevitably sink to hell. - BN

for whatever is not from faith is sin -- “Whatever is not done with a full conviction that it is right, is sinful; whatever is done when a man doubts whether it is right, is sin.” This is evidently the fair interpretation of this place.

whatever [NIV everything] -- The context limits the “everything” to the debate about matters of opinion.
(See Lard, 428–429; SH, 393–394; Murray, 2:196; Cranfield, 2:728; Fitzmyer, 699–700. Taking the former view are Lenski, 853–854; Hendriksen, 2:468; and Dunn, 2:828–829, 835.)

faith -- 1) the weak's brother's personal conviction; or, 2) the "faith" i.e, the gospel, the teaching of Christ.

His action therefore is not consistent with Christian faith as he understands it; thus he is violating his own conscience, to his own condemnation. Even though the action is not wrong in itself, he thinks it is wrong; therefore if he does it anyway, for him it is a sin. - CPNIVC

To the "weak" brother's conscience it is "sinful" to eat such meat which is contaminated with idolatry. (I'm not sure it is saying that such is "sinful" in God's sight, for there are no idol gods!) The brother has violated his own personal coviction with "sin".
- - - - - -
Can this last statement of v. 23 be exteded to cover more than "eating meat"?

1) In context the "whatever" or "eveything" is the matter of eating meat which has been offered to idols.

2) The point can be extended.

Thus the point is to extend the statement in v. 23a about eating contrary to one’s conscience, to cover all acts that violate one’s convictions about what Christian faith requires. This again is the meaning of “does not come from faith,” as in v. 23a. Thus we may paraphrase Paul thus: “Every act that is in fact a matter of opinion but is nevertheless inconsistent with one’s (even faulty) understanding of Christian faith is a sin.” CPNIVC

You have the liberty to disagree here.

J.
 

uncle silas

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YES, God forgives... but, again, this proves that faith is something to be WALKED in, not merely to be HELD.

As far as to whether Christians can "fluctuate" in justification : John, himself, warns the spiritually immature, the "little children", to remain in Christ or else they will shrink back in shame at His appearance... why would they be ashamed except for not being clothed with Christ because of not remaining in Him (and we know remaining in Him is by faith in the Name of God's Son and loving others/walking by faith 1 Jn 3:23,24)?

Probably as you mature, you get stronger, and it doesn't occur as frequently.
What I mean is, the law in our hearts and minds, we do not sadly perfeclty keep in line with do we. If you believe, every time we do not act in a way according to that law we become unjustified, we are going to be flip flopping in and out of a justified state regularly
BTW
But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions/sin Eph2:4&5
 

GracePeace

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3. Philippians 2:12-13
"Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure."
Greek: τὴν ἑαυτῶν σωτηρίαν κατεργάζεσθε... Θεὸς γάρ ἐστιν ὁ ἐνεργῶν ἐν ὑμῖν καὶ τὸ θέλειν καὶ τὸ ἐνεργεῖν.
κατεργάζεσθε (katergazesthe, work out) is an imperative in the middle voice, showing an active response from the believer. Meanwhile, ὁ ἐνεργῶν (ho energōn, God who works) indicates God's passive yet enabling role in making this action possible.
I like this, because it goes together with Matthew 18 and with Matthew 25--in both cases (the lazy servant and the unforgiving servant) of loss of salvation, the problem was not yielding, or bringing forth, the fruit of what had been done for them, by cause of them apparently not contemptating it, not walking in faith (the lazy servant claims the Lord has done nothing for him ("you reap where you do not sow"), and the unforgiving servant disregards what has been done for him ("I forgave you all that debt! Shouldn't you have done the same!?")).
 

GracePeace

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The one who says eating the meat is wrong, but does so anyway, places himself in a guilty light; condemning himself by what he himself has said.
The "condemnatin" is not from God, but himself.
The reason this does not overturn the idea that walking in faith is required for justification is that "God Is Our Righteousness", thus "God's righteousness is revealed from faith to faith", and "let each man be fully convinced in his own mind", so that the person's own convictions condemning them is God's Law written on the heart accusing or else excusing them (Ro 2:13-15).
 

GracePeace

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4. Romans 1:17
"For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, 'The just shall live by faith.'”
Greek: ὁ δὲ δίκαιος ἐκ πίστεως ζήσεται.
ἐκ πίστεως ζήσεται (ek pisteōs zēsetai, shall live by faith) employs the future indicative ζήσεται (shall live), showing that faith actively sustains life in an ongoing, future-oriented sense.
This goes with Galatians : though he quotes "the just shall live by faith, he nowhere says the Galatians should resort to "faith in Christ alone", rather, he leads them to the Law of Faith in practice ("serve one another by faith working through love"). His issue was they were being led away from this simplicity into other complex details which, for them, had nothing to do with knowing Christ and expressing Christ for God's glory by serving others (not "faith alone" but "since you had faith, now walk in faith working by love").
 

uncle silas

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This goes with Galatians : though he quotes "the just shall live by faith, he nowhere says the Galatians should resort to "faith in Christ alone", rather, he leads them to the Law of Faith in practice ("serve one another by faith working through love"). His issue was they were being led away from this simplicity into other complex details which, for them, had nothing to do with knowing Christ and expressing Christ for God's glory by serving others (not "faith alone" but "since you had faith, now walk in faith working by love").
But if, in seeking to be justified IN(IN) Christ, we Jews find ourselves also among the sinners, doesn’t that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18 If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a lawbreaker. Gal2:17&18



Justification is instantaneous at the point of conversion, the justification Paul writes about in the above takes time to achieve. What justification is Paul writing about?

Why does he ask the question ‘’Does Christ promote sin?’’

And what does he mean when he states: 18’’ If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a lawbreaker.’’
 

GracePeace

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Excellant
The Law of Faith "each man must be fully convinced in his own mind" is from God, thus breaking that Law of Faith is categorized as "sin", and the man is "condemned". Whose rule did he break? God's. Who justifies the man who walks by God's rule? God. Who condemns the man who walks by God's rule? God.

If not, you're claiming you can just believe in Christ, but live in sin, and still live; Romans 8:12,13 says if you walk according to the flesh, you will die, but if, by the Spirit, you mortify the deeds of the flesh, you will live--same as Romans 2, which says only doers of the Law will be justified and given life at the upcoming judgment (but the Jewish Christians, who were not walking by grace, and ended up being "hypocrites", he warns will not receive life, but are "storing up wrath"). and then it cites the believing Gentiles as "doers of the Law".
 
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Johann

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I like this, because it goes together with Matthew 18 and with Matthew 25--in both cases (the lazy servant and the unforgiving servant) of loss of salvation, the problem was not yielding, or bringing forth, the fruit of what had been done for them, by cause of them apparently not contemptating it, not walking in faith (the lazy servant claims the Lord has done nothing for him ("you reap where you do not sow"), and the unforgiving servant disregards what has been done for him ("I forgave you all that debt! Shouldn't you have done the same!?")).


In Philippians 2:1-11, Paul calls believers to imitate the humility and mindset of Christ. He describes how Christ, though in the form of God, humbled Himself by taking on human flesh, becoming a servant, and even dying on a cross. Because of Christ’s humility and obedience, God highly exalted Him, giving Him a name above every name.

With this example of Christ’s humility in mind, Paul then transitions to verses 12-13, urging believers to respond in obedience and work out their salvation in light of Christ's example, not as isolated individuals but as a community of believers.

2. "Work out your own salvation"
(Philippians 2:12):

Paul exhorts the Philippians to actively engage in their faith, taking responsibility for their spiritual growth. The verb "work out" (κατεργάζεσθε, katergazesthe) is in the present imperative, signaling continuous effort and responsibility on their part.

This does not imply that they must "earn" their salvation, but that they must live in a manner worthy of the salvation already given to them by God.

"With fear and trembling"
refers to a posture of reverence, humility, and seriousness before God, recognizing the weight and significance of salvation. This phrase often expresses an attitude of awe and deep respect in the face of God's presence and holiness (cf. Psalm 2:11, Ephesians 6:5).

3. "For it is God who works in you" (Philippians 2:13):
While believers are called to work out their salvation, Paul emphasizes that they are not doing this alone. God is the one "working" (ἐνεργῶν, energōn) in them. The present active participle indicates God's continual action in their lives. The work God does is both internal (in the heart and will) and external (seen in actions).

God works "to will" (to give them the desire) and "to do" (the ability to act) according to His good pleasure. This highlights the tension between human responsibility and divine enablement. While believers actively pursue their faith, it is God who empowers their efforts.

4. Broader Context:
The letter as a whole emphasizes joy, unity, and perseverance in the Christian life. Paul wrote to the Philippians while he was in prison, urging them to live as citizens of heaven (Philippians 1:27), shining as lights in the world (Philippians 2:15), and holding fast to their faith amidst challenges and opposition (Philippians 3:17-21). The call to "work out your salvation" fits within this broader theme of living out the gospel in a broken and hostile world.

The context above.

J.
 
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uncle silas

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The Law of Faith "each man must be fully convinced in his own mind" is from God, thus breaking that Law of Faith is categorized as "sin", and the man is "condemned". Whose rule did he break? God's. Who justifies the man who walks by God's rule? God. Who condemns the man who walks by God's rule? God.

If not, you're claiming you can just believe in Christ, but live in sin, and still live; Romans 8:12,13 says if you walk according to the flesh, you will die, but if, by the Spirit, you mortify the deeds of the flesh, you will live--same as Romans 2, which says only doers of the Law will be justified and given life as the upcoming judgment (but the Jewish Christians, who were not walking by grace, and ended up being "hypocrites", he warns will not receive life, but are "storing up wrath"). and then it cites the believing Gentiles as "doers of the Law".
What is the core foundation upon which the NC stands?
 

GracePeace

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But if, in seeking to be justified IN(IN) Christ, we Jews find ourselves also among the sinners, doesn’t that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18 If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a lawbreaker. Gal2:17&18



Justification is instantaneous at the point of conversion, the justification Paul writes about in the above takes time to achieve. What justification is Paul writing about?

Why does he ask the question ‘’Does Christ promote sin?’’

And what does he mean when he states: 18’’ If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a lawbreaker.’’
1. The point being argued in Galatians 2 is that people are not under the Law--it's not relevant here, because I don't argue we are under Law but under Grace (Law is a righteousness of my own in practice, Grace is God's righteousness in practice).
2. When seeking to be justified by God's righteousness--ie, faith in Christ--the first step is admitting you are guilty of sin, so, yes, we are proven sinners in seeking justification by God's righteousness.
 

uncle silas

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1. The point being argued in Galatians 2 is that people are not under the Law--it's not relevant here, because I don't argue we are under Law but under Grace (Law is a righteousness of my own in practice, Grace is God's righteousness in practice).
2. When seeking to be justified by God's righteousness--ie, faith in Christ--the first step is admitting you are guilty of sin, so, yes, we are proven sinners in seeking justification by God's righteousness.
Can you answer the questions please. It concerns people in Christ being found to be among the sinners. I would appreciate you addressing the points I raised
 

GracePeace

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To the "weak" brother's conscience it is "sinful" to eat such meat which is contaminated with idolatry. (I'm not sure it is saying that such is "sinful" in God's sight, for there are no idol gods!) The brother has violated his own personal coviction with "sin".
"for him it is unclean" -- it ACTUALLY defiles him
In other words, we are called to freedom--quit doing things against yourself, quit disturbing your own peace, be free, don't be a slave of your body, be free agreeing with your own mind.
Can this last statement of v. 23 be exteded to cover more than "eating meat"?

1) In context the "whatever" or "eveything" is the matter of eating meat which has been offered to idols.

2) The point can be extended.
Other examples were supplied : "observes the day as unto the Lord... does not observe the day as unto the Lord" proves this is the general Law of Faith governing Christian living.
Thus the point is to extend the statement in v. 23a about eating contrary to one’s conscience, to cover all acts that violate one’s convictions about what Christian faith requires. This again is the meaning of “does not come from faith,” as in v. 23a. Thus we may paraphrase Paul thus: “Every act that is in fact a matter of opinion but is nevertheless inconsistent with one’s (even faulty) understanding of Christian faith is a sin.” CPNIVC

You have the liberty to disagree here.

J.
Yeah, because what one believes is correct is meant to be their worship to/love of God ("as unto the Lord").
 

GracePeace

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Can you answer the questions please. It concerns people in Christ being found to be among the sinners. I would appreciate you addressing the points I raised
Those who break God's Law of Faith/do not walk in faith are not remaining in Christ, as I've proven.