Taken
Well-Known Member
Circle jerking is irrelevant.
Sin is Against God.
God is the Forgiver of Sin Against Him, given to the heartful repentant sinner.
Not a big mystery.
"JUSTIFICATION"
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Circle jerking is irrelevant.
Sin is Against God.
God is the Forgiver of Sin Against Him, given to the heartful repentant sinner.
Not a big mystery.
how about you answer this in one sentence and try using a scripture ,to be honest with you i am standing on my head trying to understand your post.
as it has been said teh very moment of salvation we are justified DECLARED RIGHTEOUS /not guilty . the only way a sinner such as you and i were can be justified .is through Christ when we are Born again. the next step after justification is sanctified set apart becoming Holy .
now then can you plzzzzzzzzzz simply your post . there seems to be a lot of tip toeing going on
No such thing as a repentant sinner, It is like saying a blackish white. They are two opposites:
Revelation 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
You can not say you are repentant and a sinner at the same time:
1 John 2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
So, "repentant sinner" is unbiblical, a made up term. If you are repentant you dont sin, if you sin you are unrepentant:
1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
Once again, the wicked will not be justified as evident by the entirety of Scripture not just Exodus 23:7
I "cannot" say who he is. Well, I can if you really want to know, but if I do, they will cut my tongue.
So Im trying to explain as much as I can.. What I can do however, is profile him for you, using Scripture:
He is not the Mighty One of Israel:
Exodus 23:7 [...] I will not justify the wicked.
So, by deduction, is a false god, a blasphemer making himself God, an idol. Is also an abomination:
Proverbs 17:15 He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the Lord.
He is a "mighty" drunkard, or sinner:
Isaiah 5:22 Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink:
23 Which justify the wicked for reward, and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him!
And he seeks to pervert the ways of judgment:
Proverbs 17:23 A wicked man taketh a gift out of the bosom to pervert the ways of judgment.
So, you can tell whoever he is, he is a wicked deceiver: a ravening wolf in sheep's clothing.
Peace be with you.
Behold
Well-Known Member
Christians go to heaven because Christ didnt fail on the Cross.
He succeeded., and as Jesus was about to die on the Cross, having completed His Father's will,...>Jesus said..."IT IS Finished"....then He Died.
What is finished?
= Redemption.
What is redemption?
Its Christ on the Cross paying for the sin of the world, so that God can accept everyone who will come to the Cross and receive the Redemption that Christ died to provide for every person.
How do you receive this Redemption...this forgiveness of all your sin?
A.) "" The Work of God, is that you BELIEVE on Jesus, whom God Sent"
See that.... Reader ?
Now, did you HEAR what i just preached to you? I just gave you the GOSPEL.
I just "preached the CROSS".
I told you that Christ died on it for you, and i told you why, and i told you that if you will BELIEVE in Jesus, knowing in your heart what He did for YOU on the CROSS, then GOD will accept your faith, and make you His own SON.....born again.
"all that call on the name of Jesus...shall be saved"
Jesus said..>"all that believe in me, i give unto you....eternal life".
what in blue blazes do you think we all are? born saints repent means to turn from we get saved we turn from the old lifestyle to the new creation in CHRIST
I ASKED FOR A simplified answer i get more junk . i think i am going to start seeing out me in coach aka centerfield. because your way out in left field --bout to be left out
Hello Behold,
Thank you for explaining, and sharing your insights with me. This scripture also comes to my mind.
“He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”
John 1:10-13 NKJV
“He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.”
Colossians 1:13-14 NKJV
“In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace”
Ephesians 1:7 NKJV
in Christ,
Matthew Gallagher
Thank you for explaining, and sharing your insights with me. This scripture also comes to my mind.
“He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”
John 1:10-13 NKJV
“He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.”
Colossians 1:13-14 NKJV
“In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace”
Ephesians 1:7 NKJV
in Christ,
Matthew Gallagher
Taken
Well-Known Member
Taken
Well-Known Member
Sure you can.
Men ARE born in sin...they are sinners.
Men COMMIT sin........they are sinners.
Sin OF your flesh, does not disappear.
Sin your flesh commits, does not become undone.
However;
God offers forgiveness FOR commission of Sin, IF the man heartfully repents.
God offers the covering of Your forgiven sins, that HE sees your sin no more.
God offers an option, to Keep a man from ever sinning again.
God offers a man option to for a mans sinful body to become dead, and risen up in a body without sin.
So;
There are men who are Forgiven Sinners.
There are men who are Forgiven Sinners who Sin NO MORE.
It is all about an individuals Freewill to Choose to Take Gods Offerings ...
Or not.
Repent:
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Confess:
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Yep you turn, you cannot be a new criation in the old lifesyle. You either walk in the light or in darkness even until now:
1 John 2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
That is why there is no such thing as a repentant sinner, if he sins he is not repentant, even until now.
Is your name called "Ezra" and I have to quote Esdras for you?
Know ye not, those who are left behind are more blessed than they that be dead:
2 Esdras 13:22 Wheras thou hast spoken of them that are left behinde, this is the interpretation.
23He that shall endure the perill in that time, hath kept himselfe: they that be fallen into danger, are such as haue workes, and faith towards the Almightie.
24Know this therefore, that they which be left behinde, are more blessed then they that be dead.
If they sin no more, why do you keep mentioning to them as sinners, whom God has called righteous?
Ezekiel 18:22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
Ezekiel 33:16 None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live.
They were sinners, but are righteous now. And theyr sin will not be mentioned anymore. They are righteous whom God has justified, for the wicked will never be justified.
Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
No one was trying to bind the law of Moses upon Abraham. The Jews were trying to bind the law of Moses (circumcision) upon the Gentiles. Paul was simply showing that Abraham was justified APART from the law of Moses PROVING the Gentiles could also be saved APART from the law of Moses. Therefore the Jews were wrong in trying to bind the law of Moses upon the Gentiles.
Paul refutes the idea that justification is by faith alone. The order of events as Paul puts them in Romans 6:17-18 are:
1) were servants of unrighteousness
2) obeyed from the heart
3) then freed from sin becoming servants of righteousness
Paul clearly put obedience BEFORE justification/freed from sin.
Furthermore, man has only 2 eternal options, 1) condemnation or 2) salvation. Paul puts those two options forth in Romans 6:16 by saying each of us serve one of two masters, we each are serving either;
1) sin unto death (condemnation)
or
2) obedience unto righteousness (salvation)
I serve 'obedience unto righteousness'. Luther's faith only denies 'obedience unto righteousness' which leaves only one other master to serve.
It can easily be seen Paul, as James, requires obedience in order to be saved:
Paul-------obey from the heart>>>>>>>> justified/freed from sin
James ----obedient works >>>>>>>>>>> justified
Paul was inspired by the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit does not contradict Himself by teaching faith alone in Romans 4 and then requires obedience in Romans 6 to be saved. The logical implication is that Paul NEVER eliminated obedience in Romans 4:5 for in the context of Romans chapters 1-4 the only work Paul eliminated from justifying was the work of flawless, perfect law keeping by which one would merit his reward. Abraham therefore was not one who sought justification by perfect flawless law keeping but was justified by "obedience unto righteousness". Paul never excluded Abraham's obedient works from justification for that would contradict James.
The only kind of work Paul excluded in Romans 4:5 was the work of perfect flawless law keeping by which one would merit his reward (Romans 4:4). Obedience to God is not a work of merit. Obedience and works of merit are two completely different things where obedience saves (Romans 6:16-18) and works of merit do not (Eph 2:9).
So you are saying Paul, a hebrew of hebrews, is considering Abraham to have been justified by the law of Moses?
Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
How come he even considers this impossibility? Just so we are clear, you are saying Paul is considering binding the law of Moses on Abraham, what we have been calling an absurdity. Not only that, but he is telling this to Jews, who knew very well this was impossible, and in order to convince them of the contrary: he appeals to his "no man can boast" argument, instead of stating the obvious.
We have both agreed already: no one can bind the law of Moses on Abraham. So please, dont tell me you actually believe this.
If not, the "works" in verse 2 cannot possibly mean works of the law of Moses, so it must be interpreted as works in general.
Also, Paul uses Abraham as a comparison, which means the interpretation of the "works" must remain the same from verse 2 to 5, and the context remains the same, or else you break the comparison, which brings me to:
Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
So, the "worketh not" must be interpreted the same way you interpret "works" in verse 2. And that is as works in general, because it is a comparison to Abraham, and his "works", therefore it excludes the law of Moses interpretation.
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Taken
Well-Known Member
Listen....men are born IN Sin...men COMMIT Sin....
^^^ THAT MAKES THEM A SINNER.
A Converted man......IS a FORGIVEN SINNER.
Remember, IT IS GOD who covers a mans SIN.
Remember, IT IS GOD who SEES a mans SIN no more.
Remember, IT IS GOD who has adopted that man to be a “son of God”.
Remember, IT is GOD and that ONE man WHO HAVE established A FOREVER Lasting RELATIONSHIP......that NO ONE can foil or undo.
Remember, IT is GOD “sin is Against”.
Remember, IT is GOD....that Keeps that man FROM EVER AGAIN Committing SIN.
Remember, IT is GOD who taught, that such a Converted man....
SINS NO MORE....
Not those who repent, if a man repents and doeth righteousness, his sin will not be mentioned unto him, in his righteousness he shall live, as a righteous man, says John:
1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
This righteous men, are not "sinners" as you call them. The righteous are justified, the sinners are not.
Taken
Well-Known Member
I am not calling “the converted” SINNERS.
I expressly call them “SAVED SINNERS”....”FORGIVEN SINNERS”...because that IS the TRUTH.
A man is body, soul, spirit...
Nothing whatsoever notifies you, your BODY has been manifested WITHOUT SIN. A Converted man has the Confidence, Trust, IN the Lord God, IT WILL come to pass a Converted mans BODY SHALL BE “raised” UNCORRUPTED...
IN the mean time....a Converted mans Bodily SIN IS “COVERED”!
What IS and WHAT SHALL BE...Can’t understand it FOR YOU.
Pss 32:
[1] Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
Rom 4:
[7] Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
do you even understand what your posting . honestly when you say a ungodly person can not be justified . your % 100 WRONG . ANY ONE CAN BE JUSTIFIED PROVIDED ITS FROM THE HEART ROMANS 10:10 i dont even know why anyone wants to even reply to you,. you make no sense
Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
This issue of Romans 4 is not about anyone binding the OT law upon Abraham. You do not even understand the context of Romans 4 so how can you instruct me on something you do not even understand yourself???????
Myself nor Paul never said Abraham was justified by the law of Moses. Myself or Paul said NOTHING at all about anyone binding the law of Moses upon Abraham. YOU are the one bringing that idea up which is not even in the context.
The issue was about Jews binding the OT law (circumcision) upon Gentiles, not Abraham. Paul proved Abraham was justified APART from the law of Moses therefore it was wrong for the Jews to bind the law of Moses (circumcision) upon the Gentiles for the Gentiles could, just as Abraham, be justified APART from the law of Moses also. It's like you are purposely trying to misunderstand something so simple.
Abraham DID DO WORKS, obedient works (Hebrews 11:8,17) logically then "worketh not" CANNOT exclude the obedient works Abraham did. I demonstrated from Romans 6 Paul required obedience in order to be justified. You are making Paul contradict himself by trying to eliminate obedience in Romans 4. I also demonstrated how Luther's 'faith only' has one serving "sin unto death" rather than 'obedience unto righteousness'.
Yes, you did called them "saved sinners", and I have rebuked you already, but I´ll do it again:
1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
Revelation 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
They are either righteous, or unrighteous. There is no in-between. So after repentance, you can not refer to them as "sinners" no more, if you do you are incorrect, and if you are correct and they are indeed "sinners" they were in darkness even until now, and are not repentant. No such thing as "repentant sinner" it is your own understanding, that is why you are yet to present me with one single verse so far.
So why do you uncoverer what God has covered? Why do you mention what God said will not be mentioned? Why you call them sinners whom God has forgiven, and cleansed? The witness of God is greater than your own.
What about when God says it then? Is He 100% wrong ?
Exodus 23:7 Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked.
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Ok, thank you. Then you understand if he is not refering to the law of Moses, he must be talking about works in general, right?
Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
And because it is a comparison, you cannot change back to the law of Moses when he says:
Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
It is a comparison to Abraham: "his faith is counted for righteousness" is taken from the Abraham Scripture, he is comparing Abraham to "him that worketh not". Now remember you said in verse two, Paul is not refering to the law of Moses, so please be consistent, dont break the comparison to Abraham, and understand: the "worketh not" here must be refering to the same "works" from verse 2. Which is not the law of Moses, but the works of Abraham.
Believe it or not, Paul is trying to convince Jews that Abraham was not justified by "his works" because Abraham can't boast.
But you just admitted in verse 2, it had nothing to do with the law of Moses, why break the comparison, and change the meaning of "works" from verse 2 to verse 5 ? First you say verse 2 is not the law of Moses, then you say he proved Jews are not justified by the law of Moses on verse 5. Please be consistent, my friend, dont change the meaning of "works" and break the comparison to Abraham.
Believe it or not, Paul is actually teaching justification by faith alone, without the "works" of Abraham, so no man can boast.
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Taken
Well-Known Member
Rebuke away to your satisfaction.
I’m Already standing IN Christ’s satisfaction;
sins forgiven, sins covered, sanctified and justified By the Lord God.
:)
If you are correct when you teach Paul is teaching Abraham is not JUSTIFIED by his works of any kind.
Then the apostles contradict themselves,
James 2: 14;20-24 True faith evidenced by works,
But wilt thou know O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Was not Abraham our faither JUSTIFIED by works, when he had offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
Seest, thou how faith wrought with his works was faith made perfect?
And the scripture was fullfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the friend of God.
Ye see then how by works a man is JUSTIFIED, and not by faith without works?
Conclusion your interpretation of Paul teaching Abraham was justified without any works of any kind only belief is inconsistent with the totality of the gospel.
Therefore your interpretation of Romans 4:1-5, is in error. Abraham faith was not alone, it was an obedient faith that justified him.
Paul teaches this exact saving faith in Galatians 5:6,
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
Romans 1:5 Paul teaches this obedient faith saves. Therefore Paul is teaching the same faith saved Abraham in Romans 4.
Romans 1:5
By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name.
Same faith in Romans 1:5 ; Romans 4:1-5 ; Galatians 5:6; James 2:21 also Romans 16:26,
Romans 16:26
But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith
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