Justification By Works

[robert derrick]

I don't have a version of salvation by faith. We are not saved by our faith. I mean it plain and simple but you won't listen. You keep twisting my position. Why? We are not saved by faith.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (Ephesians 2:8)

We are saved by Grace. Grace is nothing we control.

Faith and works occur as a result of being saved. It is God working in you.

Everything we obtain is in Christ. Salvation, Justification, Righteousness, everything is Christ. You are trying to separate these things, but Jesus is the way. The Father accepts only the blood of Christ. That is what we need.

But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. (Isaiah 64:6)

Abraham was not justified before God by His own works. God demands perfection. The best Abraham could do is give God dirty rags.

Abraham could not even believe in God on his own. God worked in Abraham. We are justified by Christ's works. Christ is our righteousness plain and simple.

And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. (Matthew 3:15)

For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. (Romans 4:2)

For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. (Romans 4:3)

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. (Philippians 2:13)

Thank you for addressing justification. You read from Romans and left it there.

For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. (Romans 4:2)

What then of Scripture in James?

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Is Scripture in James wrong? Does Scripture contradict itself?

 

[robert derrick]

I'm personally not very familiar with him. So from my perspective, if he is convinced and trying to genuinely debate Scripture with people then that is fine. I would hate for him to be genuine with people and then we be mean towards him. I am just not very familiar with him.

People are just too quick in their replies. They don't think about what they are engaging with. It's a fault on their end. Just because I'm not preaching justification by works I must be preaching justification by faith?

Where is Grace and Christ in that?

I agree with your view on proper Christian posting on this site.

You can judge my 'genuineness' accordingly.

I don't mind lifelong sinner, because he is just a frustrated troll who has already acknowledged he loves an addiction of his more than God, and so I suffer him, no problem. I've tried to help him as has others, but he of course chooses the addiction. When he actually does offer something of substance, then I'm more than glad to respond accordingly.

 

[Wynona]

I agree, but by His grace & by His help, I do so trusting Jesus Christ as my Good Shepherd & Friend to help me understand His words in the KJV to discern good & evil by the meat of His words in keeping the faith which is the good fight.

Thank you for the effort and Scripture that went into this post.

But the Scripture also backs up what the OP is saying. Faith alone, if it is alone, is dead and not real faith.

What I don't understand is blanketing all works as somehow rejecting Christ when the Bible says we are ordained to do good works.

Ephesians 2:10
King James Version

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.



The Bible is against the works of justification by the law of Moses. That much is clear. But the good fruit of love, joy, peace and practical holiness are not works that reject Christ.

If it really is all Christ and no works as someone else put it, than how are we to be used by Him, crucify our flesh, or do anything for Him at all without risking "rejecting Him with self effort"?

It is an effort to obey Christ. You must let the Word of God step on your toes and cut you. You must actively resist sin and flee temptation.

Its not as if Christ somehow possesses your will and does it for you. You must walk with Him and yield to His ways.

 

[robert derrick]

Thank you for the effort and Scripture that went into this post.

But the Scripture also backs up what the OP is saying. Faith alone, if it is alone, is dead and not real faith.

What I don't understand is blanketing all works as somehow rejecting Christ when the Bible says we are ordained to do good works.

Ephesians 2:10
King James Version

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.



The Bible is against the works of justification by the law of Moses. That much is clear. But the good fruit of love, joy, peace and practical holiness are not works that reject Christ.

If it really is all Christ and no works as someone else put it, than how are we to be used by Him, crucify our flesh, or do anything for Him at all without risking "rejecting Him with self effort"?

It is an effort to obey Christ. You must let the Word of God step on your toes and cut you. You must actively resist sin and flee temptation.

Its not as if Christ somehow possesses your will and does it for you. You must walk with Him and yield to His ways.

The Bible is against the works of justification by the law of Moses. That much is clear. But the good fruit of love, joy, peace and practical holiness are not works that reject Christ.

I have observed the same as you: all works are made anathema when speaking of eternal salvation.

And in this thread we see they won't even speak of justification by works, lest their faith only salvation becomes 'threatened' in anyway.

Scripture preaches salvation through faith and justification by works, and there is no salvation by God without justification with God.

The endless circling around imputed righteousness and salvation by faith never ends, because there is truth to it, which is why they never allow their circle to be intruded by works, and now not even by justification.

Its not as if Christ somehow possesses your will and does it for you.

Amen sister, well put. This is the big elephant in the room. People believing in being saved by faith alone apart from any works whatsoever, also speak of having no responsibility for their salvation, except to 'believe it'.

They speak and live like they are literally 'possessed forever' by grace, so that God Himself can't see their sins and judge their souls accordingly. Like a mothering hen that won't let mean ol' judging Father get near her chicks.

They refuse to believe that the power given us by faith to become the sons of God means that we are now commanded to purify ourselves, to repent ourselves from our sins, to separate ourselves from the sins and trespasses of the world, to purify our hearts and cleanse our hands, which is all done by grace with power of His perfect seed of Christ living within us.

The power of the blood of Jesus is to wash away all unrighteousness from the soul, and the power of God is to actually live like it:

Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Those who go on still in unrepented sins, 'thanking' God for the blood to not judge them for it, are treading upon His blood and despising His Spirit of grace calling us to repentance from them.

But God shall wound the head of his enemies, and the hairy scalp of such an one as goeth on still in his trespasses.

Faith without works of repentance of all sins is unjustified with God, being alone and dead in continued unrepented sins.

 

[Christ4Me]

While he is correct about water baptism, he reads Scripture of justification in Romans, without reading that in James.

By doing so, he rejects Scripture In James in order to favor his personal view of Scripture in Romans.

Ye see then how that by works of faith a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law without faith, but by the faith of Jesus Christ. For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

So, which do you choose over the other, and agree Scripture contradicts itself?

And, you can read what I've already posted as my answer, if you like.

There is no contradiction when you realize that James wasn't talking about the faith in Jesus Christ for salvation which is without works but the faith in God's Providence for why those who profess it to others, especially to the poor, should lead by examples.

You need to read that chapter from the beginning on how James was rebuking the church's abuse and mistreatment of the poor and how the church was getting out of helping the poor by voicing their faith in God's providence after church service without leading by example by giving from the bounty collected to meet the immediate needs of the poor that were about to perish from the elements and starvation.

James referencing Abraham & Isaac is proof that he was only referring to faith in God to provide that the church should lead by example to the poor.

Genesis 22:7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering? 8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the Lord it shall be seen.

 

[Christ4Me]

Thank you for the effort and Scripture that went into this post.

But the Scripture also backs up what the OP is saying. Faith alone, if it is alone, is dead and not real faith.

When you realize that James wasn't talking about the faith in Jesus Christ for salvation which is without works but the faith in God's Providence for why those who profess it to others, especially to the poor, should lead by examples.

You need to read that chapter from the beginning on how James was rebuking the church's abuse and mistreatment of the poor and how the church was getting out of helping the poor by voicing their faith in God's providence after church service without leading by example by giving from the bounty collected to meet the immediate needs of the poor that were about to perish from the elements and starvation.

James referencing Abraham & Isaac is proof that he was only referring to faith in God to provide that the church should lead by example to the poor.

Genesis 22:7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering? 8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the Lord it shall be seen.

What I don't understand is blanketing all works as somehow rejecting Christ when the Bible says we are ordained to do good works.

Ephesians 2:10

King James Version

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

The Bible is against the works of justification by the law of Moses. That much is clear. But the good fruit of love, joy, peace and practical holiness are not works that reject Christ.

If it really is all Christ and no works as someone else put it, than how are we to be used by Him, crucify our flesh, or do anything for Him at all without risking "rejecting Him with self effort"?

It is an effort to obey Christ. You must let the Word of God step on your toes and cut you. You must actively resist sin and flee temptation.

Its not as if Christ somehow possesses your will and does it for you. You must walk with Him and yield to His ways.

This is only addressing how salvation has been achieved which is by believing in him. Now there is only going on to perfection in living as His disciples by faith in Jesus Christ to help us be good & to do good and the only "obedience" after obeying the gospel by believing in Him to be saved, is believing in him to do His work in us as He will finish it to His glory.

John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:.... 11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

So we are to crucify our flesh but not religiously but by faith in Jesus Christ to help us lay aside every weight & sin daily for that is how we are to live this reconciled relationship with God through Jesus Christ as our Good Shepherd & Friend to help us to follow Him and walk in the light in fellowship with the Father & the Son.

 

[amadeus]

Thank you for your posts.

There is a lack of balance in a lot of the Christian messages of today. The balance leans towards popular theologians and teachers, rather than Scripture.

It also leans towards grace and justification but away from righteousness and holiness. And so you have entire systems of thought and traditions built on sinking sand.

Our job is to love the truth more than we love our popular sayings and systems. That's why studying the Bible for yourself is so important.

Yes, sister, and so many like Pontius Pilate can pose the question... What is truth? How many have a better answer than he did? A whole lot of people believe that they do with all of the details! Are they all right? Are they all wrong? Are they all following the right One?

"Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ." I Cor 11:1

 

[Wynona]

Now there is only going on to perfection in living as His disciples by faith in Jesus Christ to help us be good & to do good and the only "obedience" after obeying the gospel by believing in Him to be saved, is believing in him to do His work in us as He will finish it to His glory.

I almost agree. It's true that Jesus is working in us. But this is not just a passive process.
Philippians 2:12
King James Version

12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.


Obedience to the Lord and walking in His ways is not works based salvation. Working out your own salvation is not self-effort that rejects Christ. It is the evidence of true faith.

 

[Christ4Me]

I almost agree. It's true that Jesus is working in us. But this is not just a passive process.
Philippians 2:12
King James Version

12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Obedience to the Lord and walking in His ways is not works based salvation. Working out your own salvation is not self-effort that rejects Christ. It is the evidence of true faith.

I believe verse 12 is about having that mind of Christ in worship in Philippians 2:5-11 where the focus is only on the Son if anyone wishes to glorify God the Father by. Jesus confirmed this only form of worship which excludes the worship of the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son for that is how each believer will be judged by in doing the will of the Father.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

The message about "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" is continued in the next verse.

13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

That means respect God as Savior and do not resort to our own power in trying to save ourselves when we are saved and do not resort to our own power as if we can finish by the flesh what was begun in the Spirit like the Galatians in error was trying to do in Galatians 3:1-4 This is why Christians should not live by their own power by keeping a commitment to follow Christ but by faith in Jesus Christ, trusting Him as their Good Shepherd to help them to follow Him.

Galatians 5:1Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.... 5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:... 11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

The Lord has set me free from all my yokes of bondages to rest in Him and His New Covenant to me that He will do it and all He had asked from me is to believe Him. I find myself following Him a whole lot better, thanks to Jesus Christ.

 

[robert derrick]

There is no contradiction when you realize that James wasn't talking about the faith in Jesus Christ for salvation which is without works but the faith in God's Providence for why those who profess it to others, especially to the poor, should lead by examples.

You need to read that chapter from the beginning on how James was rebuking the church's abuse and mistreatment of the poor and how the church was getting out of helping the poor by voicing their faith in God's providence after church service without leading by example by giving from the bounty collected to meet the immediate needs of the poor that were about to perish from the elements and starvation.

James referencing Abraham & Isaac is proof that he was only referring to faith in God to provide that the church should lead by example to the poor.

Genesis 22:7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering? 8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the Lord it shall be seen.

I appreciate your honest and interesting response.

And so then, A man is not justified by works, but by faith only?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Obedience to the Lord and walking in His ways is not works based salvation.

Yes. Nowhere ever does the Bible define obedience to God's will as "works based salvation" done to earn God's free gift.

Paul did NOT say 'WORK FOR' your salvation but 'WORK OUT' your salvation.

God's free gift to Noah was salvation from the flood (Hebrews 11:7) yet to receive the free gift God required Noah to build an ark. Therefore Noah's obedient work in building the ark was NOT Noah working for his salvation thereby earning his salvation from the flood. But by being obedient to God's command in building the ark, Noah was working out his salvation in order to receive God's free gift of salvation from the flood...."work out" means to finish, reach the goal, to complete, not leave anything lacking until salvation is obtained. "Work out your own salvation; the word he uses for work out is katergazesthai ( G2716) , which always has the idea of bringing to completion. It is as if Paul says: "Don't stop halfway; go on until the work of salvation is fully wrought out in you." No Christian should be satisfied with anything less than the total benefits of the gospel." Barclay

By Noah obeying God in building the ark as God commanded him, then we can see by his faithful obedience God was "working in him" (Philippians 2:13). Had Noah disobeyed and NOT built the ark then it could be seen God was NOT working in Him. God is working in those who faithfully obey Him.

"your own salvation" the words "your own" shows man has a role in his OWN salvation by obeying God's will. It took Noah co-operating with God in building the ark for God to save him from the flood. God, apart from Noah's co-operation in building the ark, would not save Noah from the flood. Therefore had Noah been lost in the flood it was not because God withheld salvation from him but because Noah deprived himself of God's free gift by disobeying God......

"Work out your own salvation," Paul demands. Without man's co-operation, even God is helpless. The fact is that any gift or any benefit has to be received. A man may be ill and the doctor able to prescribe the drugs that will cure him; but the man will not be cured until he takes them and he may stubbornly refuse all persuasion to take them. It is so with salvation. The offer of God is there; without it there can be no such thing as salvation. But no man can ever receive salvation unless he answers God's appeal and takes what he offers." Barclay

 

[robert derrick]

I almost agree. It's true that Jesus is working in us. But this is not just a passive process.
Philippians 2:12
King James Version

12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.


Obedience to the Lord and walking in His ways is not works based salvation. Working out your own salvation is not self-effort that rejects Christ. It is the evidence of true faith.

Working out your own salvation is not self-effort that rejects Christ.

Excellent, I like your down to earth way of putting things correctly, unlike all my flourishing efforts to do so.

Doing God's works of righteousness by His faith is not doing our own works of righteousness by our own faith and will.

Them saved by His faith are justified by His works.

Them saved by their own faith alone are not justified by their own works in His name.

Them unjustified by His works, are unsaved by his faith.

 

[robert derrick]

Yes. Nowhere ever does the Bible define obedience to God's will as "works based salvation" done to earn God's free gift.

Paul did NOT say 'WORK FOR' your salvation but 'WORK OUT' your salvation.

God's free gift to Noah was salvation from the flood (Hebrews 11:7) yet to receive the free gift God required Noah to build an ark. Therefore Noah's obedient work in building the ark was NOT Noah working for his salvation thereby earning his salvation from the flood. But by being obedient to God's command in building the ark, Noah was working out his salvation in order to receive God's free gift of salvation from the flood...."work out" means to finish, reach the goal, to complete, not leave anything lacking until salvation is obtained. "Work out your own salvation; the word he uses for work out is katergazesthai ( G2716) , which always has the idea of bringing to completion. It is as if Paul says: "Don't stop halfway; go on until the work of salvation is fully wrought out in you." No Christian should be satisfied with anything less than the total benefits of the gospel." Barclay

By Noah obeying God in building the ark as God commanded him, then we can see by his faithful obedience God was "working in him" (Philippians 2:13). Had Noah disobeyed and NOT built the ark then it could be seen God was NOT working in Him. God is working in those who faithfully obey Him.

"your own salvation" the words "your own" shows man has a role in his OWN salvation by obeying God's will. It took Noah co-operating with God in building the ark for God to save him from the flood. God, apart from Noah's co-operation in building the ark, would not save Noah from the flood. Therefore had Noah been lost in the flood it was not because God withheld salvation from him but because Noah deprived himself of God's free gift by disobeying God......

"Work out your own salvation," Paul demands. Without man's co-operation, even God is helpless. The fact is that any gift or any benefit has to be received. A man may be ill and the doctor able to prescribe the drugs that will cure him; but the man will not be cured until he takes them and he may stubbornly refuse all persuasion to take them. It is so with salvation. The offer of God is there; without it there can be no such thing as salvation. But no man can ever receive salvation unless he answers God's appeal and takes what he offers." Barclay

It took Noah co-operating with God in building the ark for God to save him from the flood.

Amen brother. It's called things that accompany salvation:

But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

God, apart from Noah's co-operation in building the ark, would not save Noah from the flood.

Christians do have the responsibility of doing the works of God by his faith, in order to be justified of Him in the the faith of Jesus and obtain eternal salvation.

And we can also add that Noah did not save himself by his own works of building the ark:

1. He built and worked by faith in God's Word and Commandments.
2. It was not the ark that saved him, but the flood that saved him from the world of destroyers, which was God's work:

Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

God does His work of salvation we cannot do, which is the washing of the water of the Word from all filthiness of the sins of the flesh, and we do the work we must do, to repent and believe and obey Him in all things:

Blessed are they that keep judgment, and he that doeth righteousness at all times.

The ark we are preparing for God is a righteous, holy, and blameless life in this world, so that we are the tabernacle the Lord has pitched, and not that of men, whether in their own faith alone which will fall short, or in their own righteousness without His faith, which does not please Him.

 

[Christ4Me]

I appreciate your honest and interesting response.

And so then, A man is not justified by works, but by faith only?

In regards to salvation by believing in Jesus Christ, yes. That is why you have Paul saying what he did in regards to how Abraham was justified in the sight of God and that was for believing in Him.

In regards to telling someone like the poor, to have faith in God to provide and yet do not lead by example, that kind of faith requires works which is what James was referring to Abraham & Isaac about in how God will provide for His servants for why he named the place Jehovah-jireh.

However since we are saved, we are to go on to perfection by looking to the author & finisher of our faith to help us lay aside every weight & sin daily for the high prize of our calling to be that vessel unto honor in His House, ( Hebrews 12:1-2 & 2 Timothy 2:18-21 ) otherwise we can get disqualified from attending the Marriage Supper in Heaven and become a castaway ( 1 Corinthians 9:24-27 ) as in left behind to die, but the spirits will be with the Lord ( 2 Corinthians 5:7-11 ) to await their resurrection after the great tribulation in becoming vessels of wood & earth; the vessels unto dishonor that are in His House to serve the King of kings on earth.

So works does profit the believer but not for salvation, but to be received by the Bridegroom as that vessel unto honor in His House.

Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

There is a danger of engaging in running that race for the purpose of obtaining salvation for that would be denying Him as our Savior for doing that when we are saved.

 

[robert derrick]

In regards to salvation by believing in Jesus Christ, yes. That is why you have Paul saying what he did in regards to how Abraham was justified in the sight of God and that was for believing in Him.

In regards to telling someone like the poor, to have faith in God to provide and yet do not lead by example, that kind of faith requires works which is what James was referring to Abraham & Isaac about in how God will provide for His servants for why he named the place Jehovah-jireh.

However since we are saved, we are to go on to perfection by looking to the author & finisher of our faith to help us lay aside every weight & sin daily for the high prize of our calling to be that vessel unto honor in His House, ( Hebrews 12:1-2 & 2 Timothy 2:18-21 ) otherwise we can get disqualified from attending the Marriage Supper in Heaven and become a castaway ( 1 Corinthians 9:24-27 ) as in left behind to die, but the spirits will be with the Lord ( 2 Corinthians 5:7-11 ) to await their resurrection after the great tribulation in becoming vessels of wood & earth; the vessels unto dishonor that are in His House to serve the King of kings on earth.

So works does profit the believer but not for salvation, but to be received by the Bridegroom as that vessel unto honor in His House.

Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

There is a danger of engaging in running that race for the purpose of obtaining salvation for that would be denying Him as our Savior for doing that when we are saved.

In regards to salvation by believing in Jesus Christ, yes.

The question was from Scripture, not from doctrines of men, which speaks nothing of the faith of Jesus Christ 'in regards to' salvation vs treatment of the poor.

And so, you say yes, that no man is justified by works, but by faith only, which of course is false:

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

False doctrine of men are of course them that openly contradict Scripture as written.

False doctrine of self-deceiving men are them that openly contradict Scripture as written, by wresting Scripture into their own doctrine.

 

[Christ4Me]

In regards to salvation by believing in Jesus Christ, yes.

The question was from Scripture, not from doctrines of men, which speaks nothing of the faith of Jesus Christ 'in regards to' salvation vs treatment of the poor.

And so, you say yes, that no man is justified by works, but by faith only, which of course is false:

Only because James was only talking about the faith in God to provide that requires works.

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

False doctrine of men are of course them that openly contradict Scripture as written.

False doctrine of self-deceiving men are them that openly contradict Scripture as written, by wresting Scripture into their own doctrine.

False doctrines is when applying James' words as if he was also talking about faith in Jesus Christ for salvation but he was rebuking the church for getting out of helping the poor after church service from the bounty collected, by verbalizing their faith to the poor that God will provide for them.

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

What is James talking about in verse 14: He explains below.

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

So verse 14 ties in to his explanation that if the church do not lead by example in meeting the immediate needs of the poor, the church verbalizing their faith in God to the poor, then in the eyes of the poor, the church's faith in God to provide is dead and it will not profit the poor nor save the poor for saying that to the poor.

This is James rebuking the church for voicing their faith in God to provide just because the church was not willing to meet their immediate needs.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

That reference to Abaraham was about faith in God providing for His servants for why Abraham named that place Jehovah-jireh. Abraham believed God would provide and he said so to Isaac before they left to make an offering.

Genesis 22:7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering? 8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son. 14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the Lord it shall be seen.

 

[robert derrick]

Only because James was only talking about the faith in God to provide that requires works.



False doctrines is when applying James' words as if he was also talking about faith in Jesus Christ for salvation but he was rebuking the church for getting out of helping the poor after church service from the bounty collected, by verbalizing their faith to the poor that God will provide for them.

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

What is James talking about in verse 14: He explains below.

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

So verse 14 ties in to his explanation that if the church do not lead by example in meeting the immediate needs of the poor, the church verbalizing their faith in God to the poor, then in the eyes of the poor, the church's faith in God to provide is dead and it will not profit the poor nor save the poor for saying that to the poor.

This is James rebuking the church for voicing their faith in God to provide just because the church was not willing to meet their immediate needs.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

That reference to Abaraham was about faith in God providing for His servants for why Abraham named that place Jehovah-jireh. Abraham believed God would provide and he said so to Isaac before they left to make an offering.

Genesis 22:7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering? 8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son. 14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the Lord it shall be seen.

I apologize for the previous post, because it was an unnecessary confrontation at this point, and thought I had deleted it. However, you did handle it maturely with equal return, which is good. I like someone that doesn't get quickly offended, but can give as good as we get.

I have found this a uniquely fascinating take in order to avoid being justified by works for salvation, versus being justified by works for blessing the brethren.

I also would like to know if this is your learning, or from another? Because it shows a kind of ability to draw Scriptures together on the same subject with a wholly new line of reasoning, that certainly appears inspired on the surface.

So, I'd like to back up to see if I understand you correctly.

In regards to salvation by believing in Jesus Christ, yes.

So, are you saying that there is the faith of Jesus unto salvation without need of justification by works, and there is the faith of Jesus that blesses the brethren with need of justification by works?

 

[Christ4Me]

I apologize for the previous post, because it was an unnecessary confrontation at this point, and thought I had deleted it. However, you did handle it maturely with equal return, which is good. I like someone that doesn't get quickly offended, but can give as good as we get.

I give the Lord credit for me not getting offended in this occasion.

Incidentally, we all have different growth in our walk with the Lord and even disciples bearing fruit, will be pruned by him to bear more fruits as verse 2 says in John 15:1-2

I have found this a uniquely fascinating take in order to avoid being justified by works for salvation, versus being justified by works for blessing the brethren.

I also would like to know if this is your learning, or from another? Because it shows a kind of ability to draw Scriptures together on the same subject with a wholly new line of reasoning, that certainly appears inspired on the surface.

So, I'd like to back up to see if I understand you correctly.

In regards to salvation by believing in Jesus Christ, yes.

So, are you saying that there is the faith of Jesus unto salvation without need of justification by works, and there is the faith of Jesus that blesses the brethren with need of justification by works?

Yes. Especially when the church is voicing their faith in God to provide to the poor and yet said it to get out of helping the poor thus not leading by example. It is in the eyes of the poor that sees the church's faith in God to provide is dead and the church's actual lack of faith in God to provide will not "profit" the poor nor "save" the poor.

 

[robert derrick]

I give the Lord credit for me not getting offended in this occasion.

Incidentally, we all have different growth in our walk with the Lord and even disciples bearing fruit, will be pruned by him to bear more fruits as verse 2 says in John 15:1-2



Yes. Especially when the church is voicing their faith in God to provide to the poor and yet said it to get out of helping the poor thus not leading by example. It is in the eyes of the poor that sees the church's faith in God to provide is dead and the church's actual lack of faith in God to provide will not "profit" the poor nor "save" the poor.

So, are you saying that there is the faith of Jesus unto salvation without need of justification by works, and there is the faith of Jesus that blesses the brethren with need of justification by works?

The faith of Jesus in James 2 is not speaking of faith for salvation, but only for blessing our brethren?

 

[Christ4Me]

So, are you saying that there is the faith of Jesus unto salvation without need of justification by works, and there is the faith of Jesus that blesses the brethren with need of justification by works?

The faith of Jesus in James 2 is not speaking of faith for salvation, but only for blessing our brethren?

Correct.

That is how James & Paul can share the right hand of fellowship since there is no other gospel but one.

Galatians 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Galatians 2:8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:) 9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision. 10 Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.

Once saved, we are to go on to perfection by looking to the author & finisher of our faith to help us lay aside every weight & sin daily in walking in the light in fellowship with the Father & the Son. Hebrews 6:1 & Hebrews 12:1-2 & Colossians 2:5-10 & 1 John 1:3-9

Running that race is about discipleship so we may be found abiding in Him when the Bridegroom comes & not be disqualified; losing our first inheritance like the prodigal son, be left behind to die, but the spirits will be with the Lord in Heaven. 1 Corinthians 9:24-27 2 Corinthians 5:7-11 & Revelation 2:18-25