mailmandan
Well-Known Member
Is the CoC divided on this belief? I've had other folks who attend the CoC claim that is their belief, so I know what I am talking about.
Maybe you are the exception?
JUSTIFICATION: Before God or Before Man? Examining James chapter 2
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Maybe you are the exception?
It was from heaven
John 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
Luke 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.
Nicodemus was a man of the Pharisees which is likely why Jesus first words to him when he come at night was
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John's baptism was from heaven
John 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
And whereas Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves not being baptized by John
These justified God by being baptized with the baptism of John
Luke 7:29 And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.
They were justifying God,
In contrast to the Pharisees (the people doing the will of God being baptized by John) he told them
Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.
Jus thought I would add this to the conversation
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
Remission of sins is signified but not procured in water baptism. Luke 7:29 - When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they justified God/acknowledged God's justice, (signified by) having been baptized with the baptism of John. 30 But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God's purpose for themselves, (signified by) not having been baptized by John. Repentance (implied with faith - Acts 20:21) is a heart decision which brings remission of sins (Luke 24:47; Acts 3:19; 11:17,18) that is made prior to receiving water baptism.
A refusal to be baptized would signify and a lack of repentance. You just don't get it.
Submitting to John's baptism signified true repentance which does not prove baptism was essential for salvation.
Was this baptism of repentance for "in order to obtain" the forgiveness of sins or was it for "in regard to/on the basis of" the forgiveness of sins received upon repentance? Did John baptize with water for "in order to obtain" repentance (Matthew 3:11) THAT MAKES NO SENSE! REPENTANCE PRECEDES BAPTISM or was it for "in regard to/on the basis of" the forgiveness of sins received upon repentance?
Repentance (implied in faith) and not water baptism receives forgiveness of sins (Luke 24:47; Acts 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:7-9; 20:21; 26:18) *Perfect Harmony.
Straw man argument. You still just don't get it.
Amen, love your honesty.
And by you speaking the truth, John's baptism is spiritual(heaven) not physical(from man) as Dan's religion teaches.
You just admitted that the Jews could have true repentance without baptism.
When are you going to learn that you cannot seperate obeing Gods commandments from true faith or true repentance.
It's a silly argument to claim the Jews repentance did not require baptism in order to have truly repented.
You cant have one without the other.
- what God has joined together let no one seperate, Matthewc19:6
Here you are trying to teach true repentance does not require the baptism.
That is what makes no sense.
How could anyone say the Jews repented if they did not get baptized?
The two must go together.
No one would claim the Pharisees that refused to be baptized by John repented.
Only those who were baptized truly repented.
No baptism no repentance.
No baptism no forgiveness of sins.
Scripture is plain.
Men that reject what it says make a mess out of what is so simple.
Mark 1:4,
- John came preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins
No exception.
You don't understand what our position is.
Folks get this wrong and misrepresent what we say sometimes intentionally or unintentionally.
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
I don't appreciate your slander. You don't seem to understand Jesus' question in Matthew 21:25. The question was in regard to John's authority to baptize The legitimacy of John's ministry as being ordained by God in heaven and not about which baptism is being performed (Spirit baptism) or water baptism. It's obviously water baptism that is being performed by John (Matthew 3:11) which is ordained by God from heaven. Let me know if you still don't understand.
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
So, the Jews did not repent until after they were baptized according to you? So repentance in essence is baptism according to you? Being baptized signified that the Jews repented. Refusing baptism signified that the Jews refused to repent. Repentance precedes baptism and forgiveness of sins is received upon repentance (faith implied or assumed) before baptism. It's just that simple. (Luke 24:47; Acts 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11;17,18; 15:7-9; 26:18)
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
I already thoroughly explained this to you in posts #54 and #63 but unfortunately, I can see that the truth just continues to go right over your head.
Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
Theres water "unto" repentance there also
Theres water "unto" repentance there also
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
The same position I heard in the CoC that I temporarily attended several years ago is the same position I heard from other folks who attend the CoC on various Christian forum sites as well. No exceptions, huh? So, I'm only magining what I clearly heard and the CoC is just misunderstood. Got it.
Yes, you still don't understand.
None of my brethren that are good Bible students believe what you claim we teach.
You could just ask what I believe instead of telling me what I teach.
That's right.
And the point that needs to be understood is if anyone did not do the act of obedience by submitting to John's baptism did they really repent?
You could not repent if you did not obey the command to be baptized.
Cant separate obeying God from repentance.
Cant separate saving faith from obedience.
Any jew that refused to be baptized by John did not submit to Gods will.
Show me how any of them that refused John's baptism repented?
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
I already thoroughly covered this with you. Go back and read posts #54 and #63 again.
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
Your misunderstanding of the text culminates in salvation by works. Been there, done that. Prior to my conversion several years ago while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I basically defined faith "as" obedience/works too. Yet faith is the root of salvation and obedience/works is the fruit. No obedience/works at all would demonstrate there is no root. That is not hard to understand. It's just hard for you to ACCEPT because you subscribe to works salvation.
These two probably work given this verse
Luke 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves,
being not baptized of him.
But they did not repent afterwards is also shown here
Mat 21:32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.
