Judging your mother. Judging your sisters

[Zao is life]

IMO Jesus revealed all this to us about Babylon the Great in the Revelation not so that we can identify another or identify others - but so that we can ensure that we ourselves will not be found naked in the day He comes as a thief. Our pointing a finger at someone else will have been a matter of judging our mother and our sisters if we ourselves are found naked in that day.
​

The relationship of a mother to her daughters is used metaphorically in scripture, for example, Paul taught us that New Jerusalem is OUR MOTHER (Galatians 4:26).

The Revelation tells us about a "city" which has sovereignty over the kings of the earth which is located on many waters which represent peoples, nations, tribes and tongues, who is THE MOTHER of harlots.

In the book of Revelation, only:-

(1) Jezebel of the church at Thyatira & her followers; as well as
(2) the kings of the earth; and
(3) the harlot

are said to commit fornication.

New Jerusalem

And one of the seven angels who had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, Come here, I will show you the bride, the Lamb's wife. (Revelation 21:9)

Babylon the Great

And one of the seven angels who had the seven vials came and talked with me, saying to me, Come here, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot sitting on many waters. (Revelation 17:1).

New Jerusalem is a city of gold, precious stones and pearls (Revelation 21:10-11 & 18-21).

The harlot is "..gilded with gold, precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her FORNICATION" (Revelation 17:4).

"Jesus Christ (is) the faithful Witness, the First-born from the dead and the Ruler of the kings of the earth." -- Revelation 1:5

"And the woman (harlot) which you saw is that great city, which reigns over the kings of the earth." -- Revelation 17:18

In the day that she is destroyed by the ten kings who will "hate her, make her desolate and naked, eat her flesh and burn her with fire." (Revelation 17:16), the kings of the earth who committed fornication with Babylon the Great will weep and wail over her demise (Revelation 18:9).

The biblical metaphor of a harlot

"'Observe - everyone who quotes proverbs will quote this proverb about you: "Like mother, like daughter."

You are the daughter of your mother, who detested her husband and her sons, and you are the sister of your sisters who detested their husbands and their sons.

Your older sister was Samaria, who lived north of you with her daughters, and your younger sister, who lived south of you, was Sodom with her daughters.

Observe - this was the iniquity of your sister Sodom; pride." -- Ezekiel 16:44-49.

"And I will judge you, as women that violate marriage bond and shed blood are judged;

they shall strip you also of your clothes, and shall take your fair jewels, and leave you naked and bare." -- Ezekiel 16:38-39

Compare the above with:

"And the ten horns which you saw upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire." -- Revelation 17:16.

If THE MOTHER of harlots is the first of God's elect to be called a harlot, then all Christians who commit spiritual fornication are her daughters and her sisters, according to Ezekiel 16:

Ezekiel 16:52
"You also, which have judged your sisters, bear your own shame for your sins that you have committed more abominable than they: they are more righteous than you: yea, be you confounded also, and bear your shame, in that you have justified your sisters."

In Matthew 23:29-38 Jesus is castigating the scribes and Pharisees for the belief that they held in themselves, which belief had them telling themselves,

"If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets."

Therefore knowing that the ten kings of the Revelation will hate the harlot and cause her to become "desolate and naked", Jesus says to each one of us,

"I counsel you to buy from Me gold tried in the fire, so that you may be rich; and white clothing, so that you may be clothed, and so that the shame of your nakedness does not appear. And anoint your eyes with eye salve, so that you may see";

and

"Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is the one who watches and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame." -- Revelation 3:18 & 16:15.

Matthew 23:29-38 shows us that God holds those who are supposed to be His elect equally responsible for the blood of all prophets and saints when they shed the blood of the innocent among His elect.

Revelation 17:6 ("Babylon the Great"):
"And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her, I marveled with a great marveling."

Pointing fingers at others, many Christians (rather conveniently) have made the assumption that because Jesus was speaking to the Jewish leaders in Matthew 23:29-38, "Babylon the Great" is therefore referring only to Jews.

Others point to the Roman Catholic Church.

But only God knows the heart, and spiritual adultery takes on many forms in which individuals worship God + other things, therefore the identity of Babylon the Great is a mystery to all except God.

All who point fingers at "someone else" in order to identify Babylon the Great forget the warning of Paul in Romans 11:21-22; the exhortation of Jesus to all Christians in Revelation 3:18; and the warning in Revelation 2:21-22 to Jezebel of the church at Thyatira, and those who commit (spiritual) fornication with her.

Ancient Babylon
“O you who live on many waters," -- Jeremiah 51:13.

Babylon the Great/ the harlot

“And he says to me,

The waters which you saw, where the harlot sits are peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues.” -- Revelation 17:15.

Babylon the Great is a universal body ("peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues"), symbolized by many waters. Another word for universal is catholic (which is why the Roman Catholic Church goes by that name) - but that does not mean scripture is identifying her as "the harlot". Only God, who alone knows the heart, knows who the harlot is - and there may be many individuals from many churches who are collectively "the harlot".

The wording of the prophecy regarding the judgment of Babylon the Great draws from the prophecies regarding the judgment of ancient Babylon, once again pointing to a multi-national or universal collective body of individual Christians seated on the seven-headed beast, who are or will be fornicating with the world, whose identity is a mystery to all except God, who alone knows the hearts of individuals:

Ancient Babylon: The type

Jeremiah 50:29
"Repay her according to her work; according to all that she has done, do to her.

Jeremiah 51:63-64
" And it shall be, when you have made an end of reading this book, you shall tie a stone to it and throw it into the middle of Euphrates. And you shall say, In this way shall Babylon sink, and shall not rise from the evil that I will bring on her."

COME OUT OF HER

Jeremiah 51:6-8 & 45
6 Flee out of Babylon

7 Babylon has been a golden cup in the LORD's hand, which made all the earth drunk.

8 Babylon is suddenly fallen and destroyed. Wail for her;.

Jesus revealed all this to us not so that we can identify another or identify others - but so that we can ensure that we ourselves will not be found naked in the day He comes as a thief. Our pointing a finger at someone else will have been a matter of judging our mother and our sisters if we ourselves are found naked in that day.​

 

[Zao is life]

And the fact that there is so much debate about the identity of Babylon the Great is evidence of the fact that no mortal can identify her correctly because she is a mystery to all except God.

 

[JohnDB]

And the fact that there is so much debate about the identity of Babylon the Great is evidence of the fact that no mortal can identify her correctly because she is a mystery to all except God.

I stopped at your Galatians 4 symbolism.

A little off to start a journey is a long way off at the end of the journey.

 

[Zao is life]

I stopped at your Galatians 4 symbolism.

A little off to start a journey is a long way off at the end of the journey.

So you start by denying how Galatians 4 helps to the identify who the holy city isn't, and end by showing how you can't begin or end with anything of substance.

Sure explains a lot about who you believe you can point a finger at regarding the topic.

The "cities" mentioned in the Revelation are:-

1. "Babylon the Great".
2. The city "spiritually called Sodom and Egypt".
3. The cities of the nations which fell when the 7th bowl of wrath was poured out.
4. "New Jerusalem".

There are no verses in the Revelation where "Babylon the Great", or the city "spiritually called Sodom and Egypt", or the cities of the nations which fell when the 7th bowl of wrath was poured out, are called "the holy city", but the Revelation calls New Jerusalem "the holy city" three times:

Revelation 21:2; Revelation 21:10; and Revelation 22:19.

Revelation 11:2 is also talking about the holy city.

Revelation 21:2 & 9-10 tell us that New Jerusalem is the bride of Christ, the Lamb's wife (so it's referring to persons).
In Ephesians 2:19-22 the apostles are called "the foundation" of the church, i.e the bride of Christ.
Revelation 21:14 tells us that New Jerusalem has twelve foundations, and in them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
Christians are told that we are seated with Christ in the heavenly places (compare Ephesians 1:20 with Ephesians 2:6).
We are told Christ entered into the heavenly temple on our behalf (Hebrews 8:1-2; Hebrews 9:12, Hebrews 9:24), and we are told He IS the temple (Revelation 21:22), and we are told Christ is in us and we are in Him (John 14:20).

"For Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and answers to Jerusalem which now is, and is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem from above is free, who is the mother of us all." (Galatians 4:25-26).

But you have come to Mount Zion
and to the city of the living God,
the heavenly Jerusalem,
and to an innumerable company of angels,
to the general assembly and church of the first-born
who are written in Heaven,
and to God the judge of all,
and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
and to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant,
and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
(Hebrews 12:22-24)​

You are the daughter of your mother, who detested her husband and her sons, and you are the sister of your sisters who detested their husbands and their sons.

Your older sister was Samaria, who lived north of you with her daughters, and your younger sister, who lived south of you, was Sodom with her daughters.

Observe - this was the iniquity of your sister Sodom; pride." -- Ezekiel 16:44-49.

"And I will judge you, as women that violate marriage bond and shed blood are judged;

they shall strip you also of your clothes, and shall take your fair jewels, and leave you naked and bare." -- Ezekiel 16:38-39

"And the ten horns which you saw upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire." -- Revelation 17:16.

"I counsel you (Christians) to buy from Me gold tried in the fire, so that you may be rich; and white clothing, so that you may be clothed, and so that the shame of your nakedness does not appear. And anoint your eyes with eye salve, so that you may see"

"Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is the one who watches and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame." -- Revelation 3:18 & 16:15.

Only God knows who Babylon the Great is.

 

[JohnDB]

So you start by denying how Galatians 4 helps to the identify who the holy city isn't, and end by showing how you can't begin or end with anything of substance.

Sure explains a lot about who you believe you can point a finger at regarding the topic.

The "cities" mentioned in the Revelation are:-

1. "Babylon the Great".
2. The city "spiritually called Sodom and Egypt".
3. The cities of the nations which fell when the 7th bowl of wrath was poured out.
4. "New Jerusalem".

There are no verses in the Revelation where "Babylon the Great", or the city "spiritually called Sodom and Egypt", or the cities of the nations which fell when the 7th bowl of wrath was poured out, are called "the holy city", but the Revelation calls New Jerusalem "the holy city" three times:

Revelation 21:2; Revelation 21:10; and Revelation 22:19.

Revelation 11:2 is also talking about the holy city.

Revelation 21:2 & 9-10 tell us that New Jerusalem is the bride of Christ, the Lamb's wife (so it's referring to persons).
In Ephesians 2:19-22 the apostles are called "the foundation" of the church, i.e the bride of Christ.
Revelation 21:14 tells us that New Jerusalem has twelve foundations, and in them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
Christians are told that we are seated with Christ in the heavenly places (compare Ephesians 1:20 with Ephesians 2:6).
We are told Christ entered into the heavenly temple on our behalf (Hebrews 8:1-2; Hebrews 9:12, Hebrews 9:24), and we are told He IS the temple (Revelation 21:22), and we are told Christ is in us and we are in Him (John 14:20).

"For Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and answers to Jerusalem which now is, and is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem from above is free, who is the mother of us all." (Galatians 4:25-26).

But you have come to Mount Zion
and to the city of the living God,
the heavenly Jerusalem,
and to an innumerable company of angels,
to the general assembly and church of the first-born
who are written in Heaven,
and to God the judge of all,
and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
and to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant,
and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
(Hebrews 12:22-24)​

You are the daughter of your mother, who detested her husband and her sons, and you are the sister of your sisters who detested their husbands and their sons.

Your older sister was Samaria, who lived north of you with her daughters, and your younger sister, who lived south of you, was Sodom with her daughters.

Observe - this was the iniquity of your sister Sodom; pride." -- Ezekiel 16:44-49.

"And I will judge you, as women that violate marriage bond and shed blood are judged;

they shall strip you also of your clothes, and shall take your fair jewels, and leave you naked and bare." -- Ezekiel 16:38-39

"And the ten horns which you saw upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire." -- Revelation 17:16.

"I counsel you (Christians) to buy from Me gold tried in the fire, so that you may be rich; and white clothing, so that you may be clothed, and so that the shame of your nakedness does not appear. And anoint your eyes with eye salve, so that you may see"

"Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is the one who watches and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame." -- Revelation 3:18 & 16:15.

Only God knows who Babylon the Great is.

Let's start somewhere else.

Too too much information.

Let's start with a syndoche.
People don't care what you know if they don't know you care.

Now if you had bothered to discuss or care about my concern about Galatians 4 then you had a shot. As it is the rest is just hot air.

So, I'm a person. I have all the feelings and thoughts of a whole person instead of an internet troll. Talk to me as if I'm standing in front of you and discuss Galatians 4.

 

[Zao is life]

Let's start somewhere else.

Too too much information.

Let's start with a syndoche.
People don't care what you know if they don't know you care.

Now if you had bothered to discuss or care about my concern about Galatians 4 then you had a shot. As it is the rest is just hot air.

So, I'm a person. I have all the feelings and thoughts of a whole person instead of an internet troll. Talk to me as if I'm standing in front of you and discuss Galatians 4.

Lol. You're the internet troll. You have trolled twice now.

I'm also not interested in hearing the views of someone who starts with trolling, doesn't read the post ("too much information"), is only interested in arguing, and then accuses me of trolling and not caring.

You have given me enough information about yourself in two posts for me to know how much you care about anything in the Bible by showing that you are only interested in trolling and arguing and then accusing the person you're talking to of trolling and "not caring".

What people actually say in a post betrays what they claim about themselves when they accuse others - as has been the case with your only posts in this thread.

I should have stopped at your first post telling me you stopped at "my" Galatians 4 symbolism, saying it's a little off to start a journey is a long way off at the end of the journey" without even bothering to give ANY opinion of what YOU THINK Galatians 4 means or what its symbolism means.

Goodbye.

And I mean goodbye.

Have fun with your holier than though claims about yourself while you go about trolling in these boards while you share you opinion of the symbolism of Galatians 4, which though you could have in your first post and your second post in this thread, you still have not done

(you found it more important to troll and argue and then accuse the one you trolled of trolling and arguing and not caring etc).

So now I'm no longer interested in what you have to say. Others may be, so go troll another thread or other posts in other threads in order to establish your imagined moral and intellectual superiority before you even say anything about the actual subject.

PS I'm a person standing in front of you and telling you what I think of your trolling.

 

[Zao is life]

Don't fall for the tricks and tactics of trolls who try to derail threads or the topics of those threads in these forums. This is the topic of this thread:

IMO Jesus revealed all this to us about Babylon the Great in the Revelation not so that we can identify another or identify others - but so that we can ensure that we ourselves will not be found naked in the day He comes as a thief. Our pointing a finger at someone else will have been a matter of judging our mother and our sisters if we ourselves are found naked in that day.
​

The relationship of a mother to her daughters is used metaphorically in scripture, for example, Paul taught us that New Jerusalem is OUR MOTHER (Galatians 4:26).

The Revelation tells us about a "city" which has sovereignty over the kings of the earth which is located on many waters which represent peoples, nations, tribes and tongues, who is THE MOTHER of harlots.

In the book of Revelation, only:-

(1) Jezebel of the church at Thyatira & her followers; as well as
(2) the kings of the earth; and
(3) the harlot

are said to commit fornication.

New Jerusalem

And one of the seven angels who had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, Come here, I will show you the bride, the Lamb's wife. (Revelation 21:9)

Babylon the Great

And one of the seven angels who had the seven vials came and talked with me, saying to me, Come here, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot sitting on many waters. (Revelation 17:1).

New Jerusalem is a city of gold, precious stones and pearls (Revelation 21:10-11 & 18-21).

The harlot is "..gilded with gold, precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her FORNICATION" (Revelation 17:4).

"Jesus Christ (is) the faithful Witness, the First-born from the dead and the Ruler of the kings of the earth." -- Revelation 1:5

"And the woman (harlot) which you saw is that great city, which reigns over the kings of the earth." -- Revelation 17:18

In the day that she is destroyed by the ten kings who will "hate her, make her desolate and naked, eat her flesh and burn her with fire." (Revelation 17:16), the kings of the earth who committed fornication with Babylon the Great will weep and wail over her demise (Revelation 18:9).

The biblical metaphor of a harlot

"'Observe - everyone who quotes proverbs will quote this proverb about you: "Like mother, like daughter."

You are the daughter of your mother, who detested her husband and her sons, and you are the sister of your sisters who detested their husbands and their sons.

Your older sister was Samaria, who lived north of you with her daughters, and your younger sister, who lived south of you, was Sodom with her daughters.

Observe - this was the iniquity of your sister Sodom; pride." -- Ezekiel 16:44-49.

"And I will judge you, as women that violate marriage bond and shed blood are judged;

they shall strip you also of your clothes, and shall take your fair jewels, and leave you naked and bare." -- Ezekiel 16:38-39

Compare the above with:

"And the ten horns which you saw upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire." -- Revelation 17:16.

If THE MOTHER of harlots is the first of God's elect to be called a harlot, then all Christians who commit spiritual fornication are her daughters and her sisters, according to Ezekiel 16:

Ezekiel 16:52
"You also, which have judged your sisters, bear your own shame for your sins that you have committed more abominable than they: they are more righteous than you: yea, be you confounded also, and bear your shame, in that you have justified your sisters."

In Matthew 23:29-38 Jesus is castigating the scribes and Pharisees for the belief that they held in themselves, which belief had them telling themselves,

"If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets."

Therefore knowing that the ten kings of the Revelation will hate the harlot and cause her to become "desolate and naked", Jesus says to each one of us,

"I counsel you to buy from Me gold tried in the fire, so that you may be rich; and white clothing, so that you may be clothed, and so that the shame of your nakedness does not appear. And anoint your eyes with eye salve, so that you may see";

and

"Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is the one who watches and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame." -- Revelation 3:18 & 16:15.

Matthew 23:29-38 shows us that God holds those who are supposed to be His elect equally responsible for the blood of all prophets and saints when they shed the blood of the innocent among His elect.

Revelation 17:6 ("Babylon the Great"):
"And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her, I marveled with a great marveling."

Pointing fingers at others, many Christians (rather conveniently) have made the assumption that because Jesus was speaking to the Jewish leaders in Matthew 23:29-38, "Babylon the Great" is therefore referring only to Jews.

Others point to the Roman Catholic Church.

But only God knows the heart, and spiritual adultery takes on many forms in which individuals worship God + other things, therefore the identity of Babylon the Great is a mystery to all except God.

All who point fingers at "someone else" in order to identify Babylon the Great forget the warning of Paul in Romans 11:21-22; the exhortation of Jesus to all Christians in Revelation 3:18; and the warning in Revelation 2:21-22 to Jezebel of the church at Thyatira, and those who commit (spiritual) fornication with her.

Ancient Babylon
“O you who live on many waters," -- Jeremiah 51:13.

Babylon the Great/ the harlot

“And he says to me,

The waters which you saw, where the harlot sits are peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues.” -- Revelation 17:15.

Babylon the Great is a universal body ("peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues"), symbolized by many waters. Another word for universal is catholic (which is why the Roman Catholic Church goes by that name) - but that does not mean scripture is identifying her as "the harlot". Only God, who alone knows the heart, knows who the harlot is - and there may be many individuals from many churches who are collectively "the harlot".

The wording of the prophecy regarding the judgment of Babylon the Great draws from the prophecies regarding the judgment of ancient Babylon, once again pointing to a multi-national or universal collective body of individual Christians seated on the seven-headed beast, who are or will be fornicating with the world, whose identity is a mystery to all except God, who alone knows the hearts of individuals:

Ancient Babylon: The type

Jeremiah 50:29
"Repay her according to her work; according to all that she has done, do to her.

Jeremiah 51:63-64
" And it shall be, when you have made an end of reading this book, you shall tie a stone to it and throw it into the middle of Euphrates. And you shall say, In this way shall Babylon sink, and shall not rise from the evil that I will bring on her."

COME OUT OF HER

Jeremiah 51:6-8 & 45
6 Flee out of Babylon

7 Babylon has been a golden cup in the LORD's hand, which made all the earth drunk.

8 Babylon is suddenly fallen and destroyed. Wail for her;.

Jesus revealed all this to us not so that we can identify another or identify others - but so that we can ensure that we ourselves will not be found naked in the day He comes as a thief. Our pointing a finger at someone else will have been a matter of judging our mother and our sisters if we ourselves are found naked in that day.​

 

[JohnDB]

Lol. You're the internet troll. You have trolled twice now.

I'm also not interested in hearing the views of someone who starts with trolling, doesn't read the post ("too much information"), is only interested in arguing, and then accuses me of trolling and not caring.

You have given me enough information about yourself in two posts for me to know how much you care about anything in the Bible by showing that you are only interested in trolling and arguing and then accusing the person you're talking to of trolling and "not caring".

What people actually say in a post betrays what they claim about themselves when they accuse others - as has been the case with your only posts in this thread.

I should have stopped at your first post telling me you stopped at "my" Galatians 4 symbolism, saying it's a little off to start a journey is a long way off at the end of the journey" without even bothering to give ANY opinion of what YOU THINK Galatians 4 means or what its symbolism means.

Goodbye.

And I mean goodbye.

Have fun with your holier than though claims about yourself while you go about trolling in these boards while you share you opinion of the symbolism of Galatians 4, which though you could have in your first post and your second post in this thread, you still have not done

(you found it more important to troll and argue and then accuse the one you trolled of trolling and arguing and not caring etc).

So now I'm no longer interested in what you have to say. Others may be, so go troll another thread or other posts in other threads in order to establish your imagined moral and intellectual superiority before you even say anything about the actual subject.

PS I'm a person standing in front of you and telling you what I think of your trolling.

Well,
I'm trying to have a discussion about Galatians 4...which is what you started with.
I was asking for the logic behind why you believe what you believe. Because to me it's very close to perfect but off just a tad. And when using one scripture as a springboard for a theology gluing the others onto....
I want the assurance of the springboard.

 

[Zao is life]

Well,
I'm trying to have a discussion about Galatians 4...which is what you started with.
I was asking for the logic behind why you believe what you believe. Because to me it's very close to perfect but off just a tad. And when using one scripture as a springboard for a theology gluing the others onto....
I want the assurance of the springboard.

You made that abundantly clear in your first post:

I stopped at your Galatians 4 symbolism.

A little off to start a journey is a long way off at the end of the journey.

Galatians 4 is not the springboard. The origin of the imagery of a harlot and her mother (the mother of harlots) is the springboard.

Paul uses the imagery of a mother when he says in Galatians 4 that heavenly Zion is our mother.
The Revelation uses the imagery of a mother when it calls Babylon the Great the mother of harlots.

There are those who read the post who would understand that the references are leading to the origin of the imagery of a harlot and the mother of harlots in the scriptures

- and my OP post is not in any way emphasizing the identity of who is being called a harlot and who is being called the mother of harlots

- either in the Old Testament or in the Revelation - but on why there are some who are being indicted by God of being the sisters of the harlots and the daughters of the mother harlot (the imagery being used).

You indicated twice that the post contained too much info and what you said implied that you never read it all, so it's no wonder you have jumped to wrong conclusions about what the discussion is not about.

Which left me with the impression that maybe you simply do not want to understand the OP or stick to the actual subject of the OP, but instead changed the subject to what Paul is talking about in Galatians 4 when he uses the imagery of a mother when he says that Zion from above is our mother - the mother of those who believe and are saved.

I was only mentioning the fact that Paul used the imagery of a mother in Galatians 4. Your own subject has already gone off topic.

Please stay on topic. Criticizing while ignoring the topic and going off topic is trolling.

 

[JohnDB]

You made that abundantly clear in your first post:

Galatians 4 is not the springboard. The origin of the imagery of a harlot and her mother (the mother of harlots) is the springboard.

Paul uses the imagery of a mother when he says in Galatians 4 that heavenly Zion is our mother.
The Revelation uses the imagery of a mother when it calls Babylon the Great the mother of harlots.

There are those who read the post who would understand that the references are leading to the origin of the imagery of a harlot and the mother of harlots in the scriptures

- and my OP post is not in any way emphasizing the identity of who is being called a harlot and who is being called the mother of harlots

- either in the Old Testament or in the Revelation - but on why there are some who are being indicted by God of being the sisters of the harlots and the daughters of the mother harlot (the imagery being used).

You indicated twice that the post contained too much info and what you said implied that you never read it all, so it's no wonder you have jumped to wrong conclusions about what the discussion is not about.

Which left me with the impression that maybe you simply do not want to understand the OP or stick to the actual subject of the OP, but instead changed the subject to what Paul is talking about in Galatians 4 when he uses the imagery of a mother when he says that Zion from above is our mother - the mother of those who believe and are saved.

I was only mentioning the fact that Paul used the imagery of a mother in Galatians 4. Your own subject has already gone off topic.

Please stay on topic. Criticizing while ignoring the topic and going off topic is trolling.

Stop with the baseless accusations.

Let's continue on with the Galatians 4:26....
Now to isolate what Paul is saying to one verse is a mistake of understanding what he says.
Now the preceeding verses discuss the differences between Hagar, the slave woman, and Sarah who was the wife and free.
The verse in question relates Sarah to the free woman AND then in verse 27 Paul makes a quote from Isaiah 54:1 that again compares a divorced woman with many children to the woman with a husband but no children.

There is no reference to a harlot or prostitute in these verses that I'm aware of.

That's what I'm having an issue with here.

Because if this hermeneutic is off....how am I to trust the rest of what you say?

And this is the discussion.
I'm not trying to sideline your discussion just clarify what you are saying. You have made some sort of intuitive leap and everyone is just left guessing about what you intend.

We'll leave out Revelations for the moment because it's a book of a culmination of typeology .

We need to go through the exacting steps to arrive at conclusions here.

 

[Zao is life]

Stop with the baseless accusations.

Let's continue on with the Galatians 4:26....
Now to isolate what Paul is saying to one verse is a mistake of understanding what he says.
Now the preceeding verses discuss the differences between Hagar, the slave woman, and Sarah who was the wife and free.
The verse in question relates Sarah to the free woman AND then in verse 27 Paul makes a quote from Isaiah 54:1 that again compares a divorced woman with many children to the woman with a husband but no children.

There is no reference to a harlot or prostitute in these verses that I'm aware of.

That's what I'm having an issue with here.

Because if this hermeneutic is off....how am I to trust the rest of what you say?

And this is the discussion.
I'm not trying to sideline your discussion just clarify what you are saying. You have made some sort of intuitive leap and everyone is just left guessing about what you intend.

We'll leave out Revelations for the moment because it's a book of a culmination of typeology .

We need to go through the exacting steps to arrive at conclusions here.

You are not only sidelining the discussion. You're changing the subject.

This thread's OP is about the book of Revelation and the identities Christians give as to who Jesus is talking about when He mentions the mother of harlots.

So since you are not prepared from the beginning of your posts to stick to the topic or even properly read the OP, you can go discuss your own topic in your own thread or with someone else who wants to discuss it with you in this thread.

I'm not answering you again because I view you as doing nothing more or less than just trolling.

Mentioning the fact that Paul used the metaphor of a mother when talking about heavenly Zion is not opening a theological discussion about Galatians 4.

You seem determined to keep bumping the thread back up to the top of the first page of the board with your posts about your own subject (whatever that is) just so that you can troll. Very mature

 

[JohnDB]

You are not only sidelining the discussion. You're changing the subject.

This thread's OP is about the book of Revelation and the identities Christians give as to who Jesus is talking about when He mentions the mother of harlots.

So since you are not prepared from the beginning of your posts to stick to the topic, you can go discuss your own topic in your own thread or with someone else who wants to discuss it with you in this thread.

I'm not answering you again because it indeed appears to me that you are just trolling and it indeed does appear that you are deliberately just derailing the topic - because my OP does not contrast what Paul says in Galatians with what Revelation says about the mother of harlots. It goes no further than to mention the fact that Paul also used the metaphor of a mother when he spoke about the heavenly Zion.

It's a waste of my time reading what you say when you refuse to stay on topic and instead discuss your own topic that I said nothing about.

Well....
The whole thing started with Galatians 4:26 and after trying to understand this correctly you are having a meltdown.

If you wanted to discuss Revelations start with a quote from there. I just took the first point and examined it and where it appears to be referring to harlots it actually is talking about a divorced woman or widowed woman. That's as close as it comes.

Which is why I stopped reading the rest. It's a thing....when you read errors in little things how can major conclusions be correct? And it jumps out and consumes your thinking.

Why argue about a conclusion built upon 80+ errors?

Where the Whore of Babylon figures prominently in Revelations the case for who and what she is (without naming names) is deeply flawed in this discussion starting with the Galatians/Isaiah reference.

Now if you had perhaps started with a different Isaiah reference to begin with to build a case for identifying the Whore of Babylon....maybe Jeremiah or Zechariah or even Habakkuk....

Just saying....

 

[Zao is life]

Well....
The whole thing started with Galatians 4:26 and after trying to understand this correctly you are having a meltdown.

If you wanted to discuss Revelations start with a quote from there. I just took the first point and examined it and where it appears to be referring to harlots it actually is talking about a divorced woman or widowed woman. That's as close as it comes.

Which is why I stopped reading the rest. It's a thing....when you read errors in little things how can major conclusions be correct? And it jumps out and consumes your thinking.

Why argue about a conclusion built upon 80+ errors?

Where the Whore of Babylon figures prominently in Revelations the case for who and what she is (without naming names) is deeply flawed in this discussion starting with the Galatians/Isaiah reference.

Now if you had perhaps started with a different Isaiah reference to begin with to build a case for identifying the Whore of Babylon....maybe Jeremiah or Zechariah or even Habakkuk....

Just saying....

LOL. I'm perfectly calm You are the one having a meltdown. It's been hours since I posted and you came back so quickly you made it obvious how you've been eagerly sitting around waiting for me to post so you can continue trolling. And you still have not commented on the OP or what it's actually talking about, which many there are who would and who do understand. Not able to first help you to understand, since you seem to lack reading comprehension. I don't have the time, I'm sorry.

 

[JohnDB]

LOL. I'm perfectly calm You are the one having a meltdown. It's been hours since I posted and you came back so quickly you made it obvious how you've been eagerly sitting around waiting for me to post so you can continue trolling. And you still have not commented on the OP or what it's actually talking about, which many there are who would and who do understand. Not able to first help you to understand, since you seem to lack reading comprehension. I don't have the time, I'm sorry.

Do you know the story of Jeroboam son of Nebat?

It's a frightening tale of how God never forgave him for teaching error. Sure, he taught acts of piety and holy lifestyles....but the error was still unforgivable.

Just something to think about.

 

[Zao is life]

Do you know the story of Jeroboam son of Nebat?

It's a frightening tale of how God never forgave him for teaching error. Sure, he taught acts of piety and holy lifestyles....but the error was still unforgivable.

Just something to think about.

Well it's a good thing for you then that you're thinking about it.

 

[Zao is life]

The trolls have no limits, evidently.

Back to topic

IMO Jesus revealed all this to us about Babylon the Great in the Revelation not so that we can identify another or identify others - but so that we can ensure that we ourselves will not be found naked in the day He comes as a thief. Our pointing a finger at someone else will have been a matter of judging our mother and our sisters if we ourselves are found naked in that day.
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The relationship of a mother to her daughters is used metaphorically in scripture, for example, Paul taught us that New Jerusalem is OUR MOTHER (Galatians 4:26).

The Revelation tells us about a "city" which has sovereignty over the kings of the earth which is located on many waters which represent peoples, nations, tribes and tongues, who is THE MOTHER of harlots.

In the book of Revelation, only:-

(1) Jezebel of the church at Thyatira & her followers; as well as
(2) the kings of the earth; and
(3) the harlot

are said to commit fornication.

New Jerusalem

And one of the seven angels who had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, Come here, I will show you the bride, the Lamb's wife. (Revelation 21:9)

Babylon the Great

And one of the seven angels who had the seven vials came and talked with me, saying to me, Come here, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot sitting on many waters. (Revelation 17:1).

New Jerusalem is a city of gold, precious stones and pearls (Revelation 21:10-11 & 18-21).

The harlot is "..gilded with gold, precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her FORNICATION" (Revelation 17:4).

"Jesus Christ (is) the faithful Witness, the First-born from the dead and the Ruler of the kings of the earth." -- Revelation 1:5

"And the woman (harlot) which you saw is that great city, which reigns over the kings of the earth." -- Revelation 17:18

In the day that she is destroyed by the ten kings who will "hate her, make her desolate and naked, eat her flesh and burn her with fire." (Revelation 17:16), the kings of the earth who committed fornication with Babylon the Great will weep and wail over her demise (Revelation 18:9).

The biblical metaphor of a harlot

"'Observe - everyone who quotes proverbs will quote this proverb about you: "Like mother, like daughter."

You are the daughter of your mother, who detested her husband and her sons, and you are the sister of your sisters who detested their husbands and their sons.

Your older sister was Samaria, who lived north of you with her daughters, and your younger sister, who lived south of you, was Sodom with her daughters.

Observe - this was the iniquity of your sister Sodom; pride." -- Ezekiel 16:44-49.

"And I will judge you, as women that violate marriage bond and shed blood are judged;

they shall strip you also of your clothes, and shall take your fair jewels, and leave you naked and bare." -- Ezekiel 16:38-39

Compare the above with:

"And the ten horns which you saw upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire." -- Revelation 17:16.

If THE MOTHER of harlots is the first of God's elect to be called a harlot, then all Christians who commit spiritual fornication are her daughters and her sisters, according to Ezekiel 16:

Ezekiel 16:52
"You also, which have judged your sisters, bear your own shame for your sins that you have committed more abominable than they: they are more righteous than you: yea, be you confounded also, and bear your shame, in that you have justified your sisters."

In Matthew 23:29-38 Jesus is castigating the scribes and Pharisees for the belief that they held in themselves, which belief had them telling themselves,

"If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets."

Therefore knowing that the ten kings of the Revelation will hate the harlot and cause her to become "desolate and naked", Jesus says to each one of us,

"I counsel you to buy from Me gold tried in the fire, so that you may be rich; and white clothing, so that you may be clothed, and so that the shame of your nakedness does not appear. And anoint your eyes with eye salve, so that you may see";

and

"Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is the one who watches and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame." -- Revelation 3:18 & 16:15.

Matthew 23:29-38 shows us that God holds those who are supposed to be His elect equally responsible for the blood of all prophets and saints when they shed the blood of the innocent among His elect.

Revelation 17:6 ("Babylon the Great"):
"And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her, I marveled with a great marveling."

Pointing fingers at others, many Christians (rather conveniently) have made the assumption that because Jesus was speaking to the Jewish leaders in Matthew 23:29-38, "Babylon the Great" is therefore referring only to Jews.

Others point to the Roman Catholic Church.

But only God knows the heart, and spiritual adultery takes on many forms in which individuals worship God + other things, therefore the identity of Babylon the Great is a mystery to all except God.

All who point fingers at "someone else" in order to identify Babylon the Great forget the warning of Paul in Romans 11:21-22; the exhortation of Jesus to all Christians in Revelation 3:18; and the warning in Revelation 2:21-22 to Jezebel of the church at Thyatira, and those who commit (spiritual) fornication with her.

Ancient Babylon
“O you who live on many waters," -- Jeremiah 51:13.

Babylon the Great/ the harlot

“And he says to me,

The waters which you saw, where the harlot sits are peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues.” -- Revelation 17:15.

Babylon the Great is a universal body ("peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues"), symbolized by many waters. Another word for universal is catholic (which is why the Roman Catholic Church goes by that name) - but that does not mean scripture is identifying her as "the harlot". Only God, who alone knows the heart, knows who the harlot is - and there may be many individuals from many churches who are collectively "the harlot".

The wording of the prophecy regarding the judgment of Babylon the Great draws from the prophecies regarding the judgment of ancient Babylon, once again pointing to a multi-national or universal collective body of individual Christians seated on the seven-headed beast, who are or will be fornicating with the world, whose identity is a mystery to all except God, who alone knows the hearts of individuals:

Ancient Babylon: The type

Jeremiah 50:29
"Repay her according to her work; according to all that she has done, do to her.

Jeremiah 51:63-64
" And it shall be, when you have made an end of reading this book, you shall tie a stone to it and throw it into the middle of Euphrates. And you shall say, In this way shall Babylon sink, and shall not rise from the evil that I will bring on her."

COME OUT OF HER

Jeremiah 51:6-8 & 45
6 Flee out of Babylon

7 Babylon has been a golden cup in the LORD's hand, which made all the earth drunk.

8 Babylon is suddenly fallen and destroyed. Wail for her;.

Jesus revealed all this to us not so that we can identify another or identify others - but so that we can ensure that we ourselves will not be found naked in the day He comes as a thief. Our pointing a finger at someone else will have been a matter of judging our mother and our sisters if we ourselves are found naked in that day.​