Jesus never said he was God Almighty

[bbyrd009]

"I am doing God's will"

:)

 

[epostle]

MARIAN DEVOTION (not available on line)

The rationale for devotion to Mary, and devotion means honoring her and seeking her intercession, is simple and forceful. Mary's primary role in the divine scheme of salvation revealed in Scripture is to lead all her children to her Son.

The Genesis 3:15 prophecy of the Woman and her seed in battle with the Devil reaches its climax in Revelation 12 where the Woman's seed now includes not just the Son but also all His followers.

The author of Revelation had already laid the groundwork for this startling image with John 19 in which the "beloved disciple" (symbolizing all believers) is given the Woman as his Mother by her Son. In Marian devotion and in Marian appearances throughout history and throughout the world we see this Scriptural portrait come to life with the Mother of all believers leading them to salvation in her Son.

She is not the Savior and she is not the source of salvation but she leads us to the Savior and to salvation. This is the mission assigned to her by God that we see in Scripture. The fundamental theme of Marian devotion is of going "to Jesus through Mary".

The choice we face is not: "Do I surrender to God directly or do I go through Mary to God?" Rather, the choice we face is this: "Do I surrender to God through the instrumentality He has set up, i.e., through Mary, or do I surrender to God through the instrumentality I set up, i.e., without going through Mary?

The choice is: "Do I go to God on His terms or on mine?" The choice is not: "Do I want to follow Jesus or Mary?" but "Do I want to follow Jesus (by going to Him through Mary)?"

It is a hard fact of history that devotion to Mary has been a fundamental part of the historic Faith for 20 centuries. The Sub Tuum prayer dating back to the 2nd and 3rd centuries establishes this to be the case along with numerous other pieces of evidence.

Any criticism of Marian devotion must overcome this "hard fact". Also Marian devotion has always been directly related to the centrality of Christ and has been the surest protector of sound Christology.

Marian devotion stems from the surest sources: the witness of Scripture; the inerrant interpretation of Scripture handed down by Councils, Creeds and the Fathers; the universal and ancient practice among Christians of venerating Mary and seeking her intercession in line with scriptural teaching; the Marian experience of the faithful; and the appearances of Mary throughout history in the most diverse cultures that have resulted in mass conversions and the renewal of Christian life.

It may be argued that Christians were in error on this matter from the beginning but in response we will have to ask who has the authority or competence to make such an arbitrary interpretation.

Should we trust the interpretations of Augustine or Jimmy Swaggart, the teachings of the Council of Ephesus or the pronouncements of Dave Hunt? Should we be guided by the prayer and worship practices of Christians in the first three centuries who were the closest to the New Testament Church or the prayer-and-worship routines of 25,000+ denominations?

The "world" of Marian devotion is one which has been familiar to almost all Christians, including the holiest and the wisest, for the last 20 centuries. The Fundamentalists and Evangelicals have not entered this world. Neither have Mormons or Buddhists.

Before they criticize or reject a part of Christian experience that has been accepted as basic and normal by most Christians, 20th century Christians should consider understanding or even better entering it.

Three aspects of Marian devotion are vital here.

(i) The basic objective of Marian devotion is growth in sanctification on our path to salvation. From Mary came Jesus Who brought salvation to the world. Through Mary came the first of Jesus' miracles wrought at her request and bringing faith to the disciples.

Now Mary comes to us from Jesus Who gives her to us as our Mother. Her children, we are told by Scripture, are those who "keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." Her God-given mission is to help us in keeping the "commandments", in battling the world, the flesh and the devil.

Those who believe, like Luther, that the Christian can "be a sinner, and sin boldly" and "even commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day" may decide that we do not need assistance in resisting the world, the flesh and the Devil since our salvation is "assured" regardless of our future choices and actions.

But this is a perilous decision. It ignores the dire warnings of Paul and James and Our Lord's own admonition: "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." (Matthew 7:21).

We have seen that Hebrews 10:26 warns us, "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation which shall devour the adversaries."

If we take these warnings seriously we will gladly accept the assistance of the maternal love that has been experienced by millions of Christians.

(ii) Secondly, Marian devotion can only be comprehended in relation to the Christian belief in the "communion of saints", an article of faith preserved even in the Apostles' Creed.

According to the Evangelical Dictionary of Theology, "For many centuries believers have affirmed in the Apostles' Creed their faith in ‘the communion of saints.’ ... This affirmation of belief has been interpreted in various ways.

The traditional, and probably the best interpretation refers the phrase to the union of all believers, living or dead, in Christ, stressing their common life in Christ and their sharing of all the blessings of God."1

The communion of saints is clearly a scriptural teaching that is emphasized in the New Testament references to the cloud of unseen witnesses and the mystical Body of Christ ("Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?"). Among Protestants, Methodists have shown a lively awareness of the close relation between the communion of saints and a scriptural faith.

According to John De Satge: "The solidarity of which Christians find themselves members is therefore one into whose ongoing life they are caught up so as to be penetrated by it, and ultimately transformed. It is a solidarity which stretches back at least as far as the call of Abraham. ... It is a solidarity ... which implies resurrection of its members, to whom death has become incidental to their ultimate destiny."2

Once we have understood the historic affirmation of the communion of saints, an affirmation that has dropped out of the Fundamentalist and Evangelical theological systems, we are in a better position to understand the role of Mary.

(iii) Finally we must ask ourselves how we would respond if we were given the opportunity to spend a day with Mary. Would we ask her questions about Jesus and the Holy Spirit? Would we ask her how we can grow closer to God and learn to obey Him better?

Would we seek her guidance in fighting the Dragon? Even suspicious Fundamentalists would find it hard not to ask these questions to the Mother of their Savior - the one so favored by God the Father as the Angel Gabriel tells us - if given the opportunity.

Marian devotion springs from the realization through Scripture and universal experience that the Mother of Jesus will be with us every day of our lives guiding us to her Son and away from her adversary. Her Son has given her to us as our Mother (John 19, Revelation 12). Dare we refuse His gift?

She is the mother God has given us. If we say we do not need a mother, then we are presuming to question the wisdom of God's provision for our needs.

 

[bbyrd009]

Personally, I think because they burnt incense to it, actually worshiping brass and wood, that made it idolatrous because it lost its true meaning.

its true meaning being what, do you think?

 

[epostle]

The awareness of Mary's intercessory and maternal presence was a secure part of Christian experience from the beginning. Several exegetes have been quoted on this (McHugh, Breck, Miguens).

The clearest line of separation between Fundamentalism and historic Christianity, when it comes to devotion to Mary, is the differing perspectives on the dictum "to Jesus through Mary."

Historic Christianity has never seen Mary in isolation from Jesus and has viewed Marian doctrine and devotion as the safest, surest and swiftest path to a true and lasting commitment to Christ. Fundamentalists claim that they "do not need Mary" to go to Jesus and that they prefer to go directly to Jesus.

This response is a misunderstanding of the traditional teaching. All Christians can and should pray directly to Jesus. But no one actually "goes" to Jesus "alone". We all carry with us some mediating group or individual when we go to Jesus.

Fundamentalists approach him with a Calvinist picture of a god who has predestined the majority of mankind to damnation or with a Dispensationalist picture of a god who operates through various covenants and dispensations established with Israel and the church.

Faith movement Charismatics have their own health-and-wealth conception of god. Nobody goes to Jesus "alone". We go with various pictures of God and salvation. If we go to Jesus through Mary we go with the right picture, the historic picture, the God-given picture.

When we talk about going "to Jesus through Mary" we are not suggesting that Mary's function is to "introduce" us to Jesus. We are talking about growing deeper in our life in Jesus with and through Mary's assistance.

With Mary as our model, teacher and guide we become the kind of Christian God wants us to be. With and through Mary we become more and more like Jesus. Thus "through Mary" does not mean that she functions as a door-opening "go-between".

In actuality, it means that she is acting as our Mother trying to make us more like her divine Son. We are simply doing what Jesus commanded in John 19 and what the book of Revelation teaches when it says that those who "keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ" are "her seed." (Revelation 12:17).

To go to Jesus through Mary is to have a maternal companion at your side given to you by Jesus to help you follow His commandments and stay faithful to Him. We may ask why we need this companion when Jesus can do this for us just as well. This is like asking why God has given us guardian angels when we could go directly to God for all our needs.

The question is: how does God want things to work? Does He want us to work with our guardian angels, does He want our angels to protect us? If the answer is yes, as Scripture tells us, our conceptions of what is or is not "appropriate" are irrelevant. Similarly if God ordains Mary to be our Mother and guide - as Scripture and the historic Faith affirm - then that is what is best for us.

In practice the Fundamentalist does not go to Jesus "alone". He is nurtured by his minister, his Bible teacher, his church and other such "support groups" in forming his understanding of Jesus and then "goes" to Jesus on the basis of the training and guidance he gets from these groups, often with the groups or individuals actually praying with him and guiding him.

To go to Jesus through Mary is simply to embrace another "support" or "fellowship" group in our journey - one whose role in this regard has been biblically mandated. True, we cannot see Mary. But we cannot see our guardian angels either - and we are perfectly justified in seeking their help.

To put it another way, a father who helps his son learn to pray, corrects his misconceptions about God, teaches him the Bible, and directs him in leading a Christian life is not "supplanting" Jesus or acting as an obstacle between his son and Jesus. He is helping his son establish a full and lasting commitment to his Savior.

Of course the son could try to "go" to Jesus alone - but how much easier and how much safer it is to have the guidance of someone who is an experienced Christian and who loves him with a father's tenderness. This is all that is involved in going to Jesus through Mary. "Do whatever he tells you" is her constant encouragement.

"To Jesus through Mary": according to the historic Faith this is the path to salvation ordained by the Trinity. "To Jesus through Calvinism, Dispensationalism, the Faith Movement, etc.": this is the path to salvation taught by Fundamentalism.

The historic Faith is authoritative simply because it originates from the apostolic community. It is also more true to our experience. No one came to Jesus alone.

Apostles, missionaries, preachers, theologians, writers, parents, and the Church brought us to Jesus. God could have chosen to act directly but he did not. He chose to act through human beings. These human beings were pathways to Him not obstacles. So it is with Mary.

Now it may be said that Mary is just another human being and so it would be wrong to put our trust in her or to rely on her to come to Jesus. Here we must not forget that all the individuals and institutions that brought us and bring us to Jesus are human as well.

Both the Israelites and the early Christians honored the "holy ones" of their time and tried to be guided by them. When you became a follower of a "holy one" like an Old Testament Prophet or John the Baptist you focus not on him but on Whom they point to: GOD.

The "holy one" protects and guides his followers in their spiritual journey and provides them companionship sharing the benefits of his greater experience. We are fellow creatures on the same journey to God. Some of our fellows are more advanced than others and we may need their help in overcoming the hurdles we face in our spiritual life.

This is a simple fact of human experience, one which has been experienced also by Christians at all times.

When we take Mary for our companion and guide we are choosing a fellow creature but one who is the Mother of God, untainted by Original Sin, the Woman clothed with the Heavenly Sun, the Spouse of the Spirit through whom we receive the grace won by her Son.

She is a fitting leader of humanity because she is the only human person who did not give in to the greatest Adversary of God ("our tainted race's solitary boast" said the poet William Wordsworth). She is the Mother of Jesus and the one who has been instituted as our Mother by her Creator.

Devotion to Mary is almost instinctive for a Christian. The first generation of believers who reflected on the Christian revelation inevitably saw the link between Mother and Son, the New Eve and the New Adam. This is the origin of the "To Jesus through Mary" path.

To reject this great scriptural insight is really a kind of regress, a fall from grace.

The main obstacle to Marian devotion for some Fundamentalists is the fear that somehow their conscious prayer life will be "cluttered up" or confused. How can we integrate devotion to Mary with prayers to Jesus or to the Holy Spirit?

This apparent difficulty was not a problem to the greatest pray-ers of Christendom. For the great "prayer warriors" we call the saints, Marian devotion was a pathway to a rich and robust prayer life in which God was all-encompassing.

In praying to Mary we must come back again to the point that there is no "competition" between devotion to Jesus and to Mary. Once we realize that she is our Mother, a Mother who leads us to God, to the Holy Trinity, we realize that devotion is a matter of understanding relationships.

When we realize that God is infinite love, we see this love expressed as a human Mother in Mary. All human beings long for the love of a mother and God Who has implanted this yearning in us gives us a Mother in Mary.

We have a relationship with her on one level as mother and on another level we have a relationship with the Trinity, with God. She is the Mother who draws us closer to the God to Whom she is so intimately united.

Does a focus on Mary and the saints take us away from attention to God? The answer to this question is a question: Does attention to our closest friends and family in this world take us away from God?

In both instances we see the love of God expressed through these other human persons. They enable us to appreciate His glory in newer and fuller ways. At the same time we should and can pray to Him without restraint.

If there is any confusion in prayer life and devotion we find it with the Fundamentalists. In real life they find it hard to focus on more than One of the Three Persons of the Trinity.

That is why some focus on the Father, others on the Son and a third group just on the Spirit. Marian devotion, on the other hand, will clarify the distinctions within the Trinity while leading us to a real relationship with each of the Three Persons.

The infinite love of God is central to our Christian experience. In embracing Mary as Mother we enter more fully into this great Love. She loves us like she loves Jesus and we should love her like Jesus loves her.

All that we have said here helps us know about Mary. But knowing about Mary is simply a stepping-stone to knowing Mary. And knowing Mary is immeasurably more important than knowing about Mary since she takes us right to Jesus.

Our fellow pilgrims can help us in knowing about Mary. But only we can know Mary. So it is time to take the plunge. The Consecration to Jesus Through Mary is the gateway to a personal relationship with Mary that deepens and consolidates our relationship with Jesus.

 

[bbyrd009]

I challenge you to find a single official Catholic document in a 2000 year period that instructs Catholics to worship Mary.

hardly the standard by which ppl come to worship, i guess.
Put enough statues in venerable places and ppl will natch do the rest imo.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

This sounds like the heresy that the gift of tongues referred to in this verse is of the devil, because if it was God, He would already know all mysteries. Are you quoting JM or MU?

Isaiah 8:19 of the O.T. is a verse before Pentecost of the N.T. and you can find that kind of supernatural tongue in the world of the occult as vain babbling gibberish nonsense.

Even secular history records how some Romans worship the goddess Diana by the way their priests would pray in tongues as babbling nonsense and then one interprets it to the idol worshiper after the idol worshiper gives an acceptable donation for this service to "Diana". This was going on before Pentecost.

So how can God call sinners away from that supernatural tongue and those familiar spirits that bring it? By the calling of the gospel. How can God and believers know that they have repented? By knowing that God's gift of tongues are to profit the body withal for why His gift of tongues are of other men's lips to speak unto the people a Paul gave the bottom line about what His gift of tongues were for. 1 Corinthians 14:20-22

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 22 Abstain from all appearance of evil. 23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

Otherwise, you would have God copycatting Satan's supernatural tongue, and sinners that converted and yet speak the way the world speaks ( 1 John 4:1 & 1 John 4:5-6 ) no one cannot tell if it is God's gift of tongues or not if you say it also can come with no interpretation to be used privately. There is no way to prove it if you do not abstain from that appearance of evil when it should be obvious that God's gift of tongues is of other men's lips to speak unto the people. It would be confusing if the Holy Spirit can actually change the mode for what God's gift of tongues are for to use it without interpretation and so it is not the Holy Spirit doing that for why we are to test the spirits in making that discernment with Jesus Christ's help.

Here you show you are unaware there are TWO manifestations of speaking in tongues. The first is given to all who believe, and allows us to pray supernatural prayer and praise as on the Day of Pentecost. This you can do alone without requiring interpretation. However, the gifts of the Spirit were given to the same group in an additional filling in Acts 4. Here are the gifts of the Spirit being given to the Church for boldness in ministry with signs and wonders, which would include prophecy, but also diverse kinds of tongues and interpretation of tongues. Of course, Paul wants us to grow into interpretation, that is always required for the gift of diverse kinds of tongues, but can be operated to understand our prayer language; it just isn't a rule. Sometimes the mysteries being spoken by the Spirit are none of our business, especially when praying for someone else in intercession.

The Holy Spirit cannot turn the purpose for what God's gift of tongues are for by turning it around for His own use in uttering His own intercessions. That would be confusion and not just going against His words in how the Holy Spirit will speak and not speak in John 16:13.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Since scripture cannot go against scripture, I point to the KJV in having the right translation & interpretation of Romans 8:26-27 in keeping in align with this truth in John 16:13 as found in all BIBLES.

Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. KJV

Even the KJV has kept the true message from John 16:13 by testifying that the Holy Spirit cannot even utter His groanings; hence no sound at all. So how can His intercessions be given to God? By having Another know the mind of the Spirit to give it for Him.

27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Hebrews 4:12-16 confirms that this is Jesus Christ as He is the One that searches our hearts as He is the One that knows the mind of the Spirit as it is in according to the will of God that there is only One Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus ( 1 Timothy 2:5 ).

Why is this so? Because Jesus is the One that has to give our spoken and/or unspoken intercessions, the Spirit's unspoken intercessions, and His own intercessions to the Father so that when the Father says "Yes" to any intercessions, ONLY the Son answers the prayer so that the Father may be glorified in the Son for answers to prayer ( John 14:13-14 ) That is why we are NOT to pray TO the Holy Spirit nor pray TO Mary because any answers from "them" is not from Jesus Christ, and it is not really "them" that is responding, but the spirits of the antichrists. That is why all those that profess Him by doing casting out devils, prophesying, and doing wonderful works in His name are workers of iniquity ( Matthew 7:21-23 ) as they do in these proclaimed movements of the "Holy Spirit".

So your misapplication of scripture is evident when you are overlooking what the manifestations of the Spirit are for and that is to profit the body withal and not individually as if the Holy Spirit would bother to manifest for a believer to have a worship service all by himself or herself by all those self proclaims benefits for using tongues privately. The irony is that even for private use, there are 3 modes where it is for the believer's self edification, or for the believer's means to worship, or for the Holy Spirit to make intercessions for him or for her and yet tongue speakers cannot know what mode is being done without interpretation. ... and they fail to see how that is confusion they are in and testifying of.

Besides comparing our prayer language to prophecy. Paul is also comparing our prayer language to the gifts of diverse kinds of tongues and interpretation, which combined IS equal to prophecy. The message is FROM God TO man, not the other way around with our prayer and praise language we speak TO God.

Most of the time we are by ourselves. Our prayer language can edify ourselves. But in a congregational setting, the gift of diverse kinds of tongues with interpretation is allowed, but only 2-3, and only when the person with the gift of interpreter is present. Except when all may praise God together in perfect praise by the Spirit, as a choir. But only if all present are informed and practicing. Otherwise, it could cause others to stumble and speak against this peculiar manifestation of the Spirit, bringing judgment upon themselves.

Given the 3 kinds of modes or benefits that you would claim for private use, it is still confusion because you cannot know which benefit that tongue is supposedly giving which is why the real God's gift of tongues is not a stand alone gift as He will have it followed by interpretation from another.

I agree regarding the gift of diverse kinds of tongues. It is a rule that the interpreter must be present with the supernatural gift of interpretation. Otherwise, the one receiving a message in tongues, just speak to himself and God. However, seeing as on the Day of Pentecost 120 followers of Jesus were ALL PRAISING IN TONGUES TOGETHER, Paul is not referring to the rule of 2-3 only. But God, on the Day of Pentecost allowed His people, the devout Jews, to interpret the tongues, each hearing all of them speaking His own language.

Even Paul says he cannot know what is being said unless interpreted. When he speaks in tongues, Paul prays that another will interpret because he would understand the tongue for that tongue to be fruitful to himself whereby true edification occurs.

 

[epostle]

Fundamentalists approach him with a Calvinist picture of a god who has predestined the majority of mankind to damnation or with a Dispensationalist picture of a god who operates through various covenants and dispensations established with Israel and the church.

Faith movement Charismatics have their own health-and-wealth conception of god. Nobody goes to Jesus "alone". We go with various pictures of God and salvation. If we go to Jesus through Mary we go with the right picture, the historic picture, the God-given picture.

When we talk about going "to Jesus through Mary" we are not suggesting that Mary's function is to "introduce" us to Jesus. We are talking about growing deeper in our life in Jesus with and through Mary's assistance.

With Mary as our model, teacher and guide we become the kind of Christian God wants us to be. With and through Mary we become more and more like Jesus. Thus "through Mary" does not mean that she functions as a door-opening "go-between".

In actuality, it means that she is acting as our Mother trying to make us more like her divine Son. We are simply doing what Jesus commanded in John 19 and what the book of Revelation teaches when it says that those who "keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ" are "her seed." (Revelation 12:17).

To go to Jesus through Mary is to have a maternal companion at your side given to you by Jesus to help you follow His commandments and stay faithful to Him. We may ask why we need this companion when Jesus can do this for us just as well. This is like asking why God has given us guardian angels when we could go directly to God for all our needs.

The question is: how does God want things to work? Does He want us to work with our guardian angels, does He want our angels to protect us? If the answer is yes, as Scripture tells us, our conceptions of what is or is not "appropriate" are irrelevant. Similarly if God ordains Mary to be our Mother and guide - as Scripture and the historic Faith affirm - then that is what is best for us.

In practice the Fundamentalist does not go to Jesus "alone". He is nurtured by his minister, his Bible teacher, his church and other such "support groups" in forming his understanding of Jesus and then "goes" to Jesus on the basis of the training and guidance he gets from these groups, often with the groups or individuals actually praying with him and guiding him.

To go to Jesus through Mary is simply to embrace another "support" or "fellowship" group in our journey - one whose role in this regard has been biblically mandated. True, we cannot see Mary. But we cannot see our guardian angels either - and we are perfectly justified in seeking their help.

To put it another way, a father who helps his son learn to pray, corrects his misconceptions about God, teaches him the Bible, and directs him in leading a Christian life is not "supplanting" Jesus or acting as an obstacle between his son and Jesus. He is helping his son establish a full and lasting commitment to his Savior.

Of course the son could try to "go" to Jesus alone - but how much easier and how much safer it is to have the guidance of someone who is an experienced Christian and who loves him with a father's tenderness. This is all that is involved in going to Jesus through Mary. "Do whatever he tells you" is her constant encouragement.

"To Jesus through Mary": according to the historic Faith this is the path to salvation ordained by the Trinity. "To Jesus through Calvinism, Dispensationalism, the Faith Movement, etc.": this is the path to salvation taught by Fundamentalism.

The historic Faith is authoritative simply because it originates from the apostolic community. It is also more true to our experience. No one came to Jesus alone.

Apostles, missionaries, preachers, theologians, writers, parents, and the Church brought us to Jesus. God could have chosen to act directly but he did not. He chose to act through human beings. These human beings were pathways to Him not obstacles. So it is with Mary.

Now it may be said that Mary is just another human being and so it would be wrong to put our trust in her or to rely on her to come to Jesus. Here we must not forget that all the individuals and institutions that brought us and bring us to Jesus are human as well.

Both the Israelites and the early Christians honored the "holy ones" of their time and tried to be guided by them. When you became a follower of a "holy one" like an Old Testament Prophet or John the Baptist you focus not on him but on Whom they point to: GOD.

The "holy one" protects and guides his followers in their spiritual journey and provides them companionship sharing the benefits of his greater experience. We are fellow creatures on the same journey to God. Some of our fellows are more advanced than others and we may need their help in overcoming the hurdles we face in our spiritual life.

This is a simple fact of human experience, one which has been experienced also by Christians at all times.

When we take Mary for our companion and guide we are choosing a fellow creature but one who is the Mother of God, untainted by Original Sin, the Woman clothed with the Heavenly Sun, the Spouse of the Spirit through whom we receive the grace won by her Son.

She is a fitting leader of humanity because she is the only human person who did not give in to the greatest Adversary of God ("our tainted race's solitary boast" said the poet William Wordsworth). She is the Mother of Jesus and the one who has been instituted as our Mother by her Creator.

Devotion to Mary is almost instinctive for a Christian. The first generation of believers who reflected on the Christian revelation inevitably saw the link between Mother and Son, the New Eve and the New Adam. This is the origin of the "To Jesus through Mary" path.

To reject this great scriptural insight is really a kind of regress, a fall from grace.

The main obstacle to Marian devotion for some Fundamentalists is the fear that somehow their conscious prayer life will be "cluttered up" or confused. How can we integrate devotion to Mary with prayers to Jesus or to the Holy Spirit?

This apparent difficulty was not a problem to the greatest pray-ers of Christendom. For the great "prayer warriors" we call the saints, Marian devotion was a pathway to a rich and robust prayer life in which God was all-encompassing.

In praying to Mary we must come back again to the point that there is no "competition" between devotion to Jesus and to Mary. Once we realize that she is our Mother, a Mother who leads us to God, to the Holy Trinity, we realize that devotion is a matter of understanding relationships.

When we realize that God is infinite love, we see this love expressed as a human Mother in Mary. All human beings long for the love of a mother and God Who has implanted this yearning in us gives us a Mother in Mary.

We have a relationship with her on one level as mother and on another level we have a relationship with the Trinity, with God. She is the Mother who draws us closer to the God to Whom she is so intimately united.

Does a focus on Mary and the saints take us away from attention to God? The answer to this question is a question: Does attention to our closest friends and family in this world take us away from God?

In both instances we see the love of God expressed through these other human persons. They enable us to appreciate His glory in newer and fuller ways. At the same time we should and can pray to Him without restraint.

If there is any confusion in prayer life and devotion we find it with the Fundamentalists. In real life they find it hard to focus on more than One of the Three Persons of the Trinity.

That is why some focus on the Father, others on the Son and a third group just on the Spirit. Marian devotion, on the other hand, will clarify the distinctions within the Trinity while leading us to a real relationship with each of the Three Persons.

The infinite love of God is central to our Christian experience. In embracing Mary as Mother we enter more fully into this great Love. She loves us like she loves Jesus and we should love her like Jesus loves her.

All that we have said here helps us know about Mary. But knowing about Mary is simply a stepping-stone to knowing Mary. And knowing Mary is immeasurably more important than knowing about Mary since she takes us right to Jesus.

Our fellow pilgrims can help us in knowing about Mary. But only we can know Mary. So it is time to take the plunge. The Consecration to Jesus Through Mary is the gateway to a personal relationship with Mary that deepens and consolidates our relationship with Jesus.

 

[epostle]

Isaiah 8:19 of the O.T. is a verse before Pentecost of the N.T. and you can find that kind of supernatural tongue in the world of the occult as vain babbling gibberish nonsense.

Even secular history records how some Romans worship the goddess Diana by the way their priests would pray in tongues as babbling nonsense and then one interprets it to the idol worshiper after the idol worshiper gives an acceptable donation for this service to "Diana". This was going on before Pentecost.

So how can God call sinners away from that supernatural tongue and those familiar spirits that bring it? By the calling of the gospel. How can God and believers know that they have repented? By knowing that God's gift of tongues are to profit the body withal for why His gift of tongues are of other men's lips to speak unto the people a Paul gave the bottom line about what His gift of tongues were for. 1 Corinthians 14:20-22

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 22 Abstain from all appearance of evil. 23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

Otherwise, you would have God copycatting Satan's supernatural tongue, and sinners that converted and yet speak the way the world speaks ( 1 John 4:1 & 1 John 4:5-6 ) no one cannot tell if it is God's gift of tongues or not if you say it also can come with no interpretation to be used privately. There is no way to prove it if you do not abstain from that appearance of evil when it should be obvious that God's gift of tongues is of other men's lips to speak unto the people. It would be confusing if the Holy Spirit can actually change the mode for what God's gift of tongues are for to use it without interpretation and so it is not the Holy Spirit doing that for why we are to test the spirits in making that discernment with Jesus Christ's help.

The Holy Spirit cannot turn the purpose for what God's gift of tongues are for by turning it around for His own use in uttering His own intercessions. That would be confusion and not just going against His words in how the Holy Spirit will speak and not speak in John 16:13.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Since scripture cannot go against scripture, I point to the KJV in having the right translation & interpretation of Romans 8:26-27 in keeping in align with this truth in John 16:13 as found in all BIBLES.

Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. KJV

Even the KJV has kept the true message from John 16:13 by testifying that the Holy Spirit cannot even utter His groanings; hence no sound at all. So how can His intercessions be given to God? By having Another know the mind of the Spirit to give it for Him.

27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Hebrews 4:12-16 confirms that this is Jesus Christ as He is the One that searches our hearts as He is the One that knows the mind of the Spirit as it is in according to the will of God that there is only One Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus ( 1 Timothy 2:5 ).

Why is this so? Because Jesus is the One that has to give our spoken and/or unspoken intercessions, the Spirit's unspoken intercessions, and His own intercessions to the Father so that when the Father says "Yes" to any intercessions, ONLY the Son answers the prayer so that the Father may be glorified in the Son for answers to prayer ( John 14:13-14 ) That is why we are NOT to pray TO the Holy Spirit nor pray TO Mary because any answers from "them" is not from Jesus Christ, and it is not really "them" that is responding, but the spirits of the antichrists. That is why all those that profess Him by doing casting out devils, prophesying, and doing wonderful works in His name are workers of iniquity ( Matthew 7:21-23 ) as they do in these proclaimed movements of the "Holy Spirit".

So your misapplication of scripture is evident when you are overlooking what the manifestations of the Spirit are for and that is to profit the body withal and not individually as if the Holy Spirit would bother to manifest for a believer to have a worship service all by himself or herself by all those self proclaims benefits for using tongues privately. The irony is that even for private use, there are 3 modes where it is for the believer's self edification, or for the believer's means to worship, or for the Holy Spirit to make intercessions for him or for her and yet tongue speakers cannot know what mode is being done without interpretation. ... and they fail to see how that is confusion they are in and testifying of

Given the 3 kinds of modes or benefits that you would claim for private use, it is still confusion because you cannot know which benefit that tongue is supposedly giving which is why the real God's gift of tongues is not a stand alone gift as He will have it followed by interpretation from another.

Even Paul says he cannot know what is being said unless interpreted. When he speaks in tongues, Paul prays that another will interpret because he would understand the tongue for that tongue to be fruitful to himself whereby true edification occurs.

Your knowledge of Roman mythology is pathetic, you are highly critical about the gift of tongues, make up fair tales about it's history nature and purpose all because you don't don't have it and are jealous. Chill out, man! Its not meant for everybody. I can pray in tongues but that doesn't make me any holier than anybody else.

Speaking in tongues: genuine charism or silly gibberish?

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

All that we have said here helps us know about Mary. But knowing about Mary is simply a stepping-stone to knowing Mary. And knowing Mary is immeasurably more important than knowing about Mary since she takes us right to Jesus.

Our fellow pilgrims can help us in knowing about Mary. But only we can know Mary. So it is time to take the plunge. The Consecration to Jesus Through Mary is the gateway to a personal relationship with Mary that deepens and consolidates our relationship with Jesus.

No. God the Father provided only one way to come to Him and that is through His Son in getting to know God personally. If you know the Son, that is how you know the Father. That is why all invitations points to the son and none to Mary.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

To know Jesus is to know God.

Jesus has deferred worship from Mary.

Luke 11:27 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. 28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

Jesus said this to keep believers from exalting Mary in being His mother.

Matthew 12:46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. 47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. 48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? 49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! 50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

So focusing on Mary is not a way to learn about Jesus. Reading the scripture is.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

When you find that you cannot find your rest in Jesus Christ because of catholicism, then learn of Him in the scripture of the King James Bible.

Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

This is standard anti-Catholic ignorance. I challenge you to find a single official Catholic document in a 2000 year period that instructs Catholics to worship Mary. What you are doing, and you do it automatically, is persecuting a bother in the name of Jesus. Blind prejudice is not a gift of the Holy Spirit.

Read what I said. I'm not ignorant of RCC official doctrines. I'm saying THE PEOPLE do it anyway.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

so you say, but i would suggest a diff perspective fwiw

So I have to ask what your perspective is?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Third party evidence is hearsay, it's not evidence. Confirmation from a dentist in writing is evidence.

So even though I know these people and bear witness, you need a dentist before you believe. Sounds like something Thomas would say.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I think you miss the point. Any and all Marian devotion that fails to lead to Jesus is a false, counterfeit devotion. Just as the whole purpose of her being is to bring Christ to the world, her desire is to bring the wold to Christ.

Now you have dead woman assuming the role of the Holy Spirit. Why are all these fairytales, becoming canonized?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

In the beginning was the Bible, and the Bible was with God, and the Bible was God

You are limiting the person of the Word, into a box called the Bible. The Bible holds only partial knowledge, not ALL.

could you rephrase this? Or are you commending yourself on purpose here? I just don't want to misunderstand your intent here, ty

When the Bible says something to be true, and your experience lines up with that truth, you are a witness. Do I need to explain it again?

 

[bbyrd009]

So I have to ask what your perspective is?

well i'm not sure mine is complete there either ok, but it would run along the lines of understanding Nehushtan present tense, with yourself as the Priest. Plus i got the feeling that the Snake on a Pole was kind of an...um, not sure what term to even use here....idolatrous kind of setup anyway. Or maybe 'self-inflicted' is a better term, i dunno.

A good way to put it might be that the Wanderers got the Snake bc they would not follow Christ,
which i put that way to you bc you get "preincarnate Christ" i bet, although you might feel better with "God" there.

 

[bbyrd009]

You are limiting the person of the Word, into a box called the Bible. The Bible holds only partial knowledge, not ALL.



When the Bible says something to be true, and your experience lines up with that truth, you are a witness. Do I need to explain it again?

is the Bible Word in your opinion or not? These two...lectures? unfortunately do not make it any clearer wadr

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Isaiah 8:19 of the O.T. is a verse before Pentecost of the N.T. and you can find that kind of supernatural tongue in the world of the occult as vain babbling gibberish nonsense.

Even secular history records how some Romans worship the goddess Diana by the way their priests would pray in tongues as babbling nonsense and then one interprets it to the idol worshiper after the idol worshiper gives an acceptable donation for this service to "Diana". This was going on before Pentecost.

Therefore, if Satan counterfeits a gift of God, we must throw out the gift of God? You honestly can't discern the difference? So if someone counterfeits a dollar bill, you must throw away your money?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

well i'm not sure mine is complete there either ok, but it would run along the lines of understanding Nehushtan present tense, with yourself as the Priest. Plus i got the feeling that the Snake on a Pole was kind of an...um, not sure what term to even use here....idolatrous kind of setup anyway. Or maybe 'self-inflicted' is a better term, i dunno.

A good way to put it might be that the Wanderers got the Snake bc they would not follow Christ,
which i put that way to you bc you get "preincarnate Christ" i bet, although you might feel better with "God" there.

Maybe because you are using the term, nehushtan, which is a derogatory term for the snake of the pole - something that was good - is why I'm not getting your point.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

Your knowledge of Roman mythology is pathetic, you are highly critical about the gift of tongues, make up fair tales about it's history nature and purpose all because you don't don't have it and are jealous.

Biblical reference to the goddess Diana in Acts 19:35-41

Secular evidence that ecstatic tongues as found in heathen religions.

Speaking In Tongues Not Necessarily Christian: Widespread In Heathen Religions

Secular history about tongues that are gibberish in how it is used in service to idols ....

Pagan Practices | History of Tongues | Ecstatic Language

I cannot find the site again that did refer to the goddess Diana as one of the examples of ecstatic tongues used for that service, but you can draw the connection there from the Biblical reference to several secular references as proof that there is a site connecting that kind of tongue to paganism.

Chill out, man! Its not meant for everybody. I can pray in tongues but that doesn't make me any holier than anybody else.

Speaking in tongues: genuine charism or silly gibberish?

But you guys as tongue speakers do comes across as holier than thou when you separate from the testimony that all believers are to share in by having that one drink of the One Spirit at our salvation just by you claiming another drink of the One Spirit in receiving Him separate from salvation by how you got that tongue without interpretation and not God's gift of tongues of other men's lips to speak unto the people.

After citing that the manifestations of the Spirit was to profit the body withal in 1 Corinthians 12:7 ( not individually ) and listing those manifestations from verse 8-11, Paul goes on to explain how the Spirit will manifest the gifts dividing severally as He wills among the assembly and more importantly, citing that one drink of the One Spirit as refuting any other drink of that One Spirit to get a spiritual gift in that way, meaning, one does not expect to get a gift of the Spirit at the time they are receiving the promise of the Spirit by faith and not by sight in Jesus Christ at their salvation.

1 Corinthians 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

So by the grace of God and His help, He is giving you a heads up to wake up and discern the tongue you are allowing to manifest as coming without interpretation because it is not of Him. To prove all things and abstain from all appearances of evil, God will not copycat Satan's kind of tongue.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

Your knowledge of Roman mythology is pathetic, you are highly critical about the gift of tongues, make up fair tales about it's history nature and purpose all because you don't don't have it and are jealous. Chill out, man! Its not meant for everybody. I can pray in tongues but that doesn't make me any holier than anybody else.

Speaking in tongues: genuine charism or silly gibberish?

How do you not know that you got that tongue by your devotions to Mary in the same way as idol worshipers do?