Jesus came to seek and to save THAT which was lost. - What was it that was lost?

[St. SteVen]

This is what happens to me when I listen to a sermon. I texted my wife. It says THAT instead of WHO. ???

Jesus came to seek and save that (THAT) which was lost. What was the THAT that he came to seek and to save?

The traditional translations use THAT. The modern translations use "the lost". BIG difference. !!! ???
Did the traditional translations get it right? If so, what was the THAT that was lost?

Luke 19:10 KJV
For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

--- COMPARE ---

Luke 19:10 NIV
For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”

]

 

[Lambano]

This is what happens to me when I listen to a sermon. I texted my wife. It says THAT instead of WHO. ???

Jesus came to seek and save that (THAT) which was lost. What was the THAT that he came to seek and to save?

The traditional translations use THAT. The modern translations use "the lost". BIG difference. !!! ???
Did the traditional translations get it right? If so, what was the THAT that was lost?

Luke 19:10 KJV
For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

--- COMPARE ---

Luke 19:10 NIV
For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”

]

There's a subtlety of Greek grammar going on here. The key words are

τὸ ("to"; article; accusative singular neuter) ἀπολωλός ("apololos"; verb; second perfect active participle). What I find interesting is the verb "apollumi", which is the word translated "perish" in John 3:16. "To destroy" or "to be destroyed" is another meaning.

"The" or "that"? If the article is followed by a noun, you translate it with the English direct article, which is a fancy way to say "the". When followed by an adjective or a verb, I mentally translate it as "the one", or "the thing", or as KJV did, "that", depending on context.

"Seeking" implies something was lost. "Saving" implies what was lost is a someone. With this shade of meaning in mind (and the verb perfect participle form, which takes a "was" and "-ing" in English), I could translate it as, "For the Son of Man came to seek and rescue the one who was perishing".

 

[St. SteVen]

Great reply, thanks.

"The" or "that"? If the article is followed by a noun, you translate it with the English direct article, which is a fancy way to say "the". When followed by an adjective or a verb, I mentally translate it as "the one", or "the thing", or as KJV did, "that", depending on context.

Yes. I am intrigued by the KJV translation as "that". Every once in a while the KJV nails it for me.

"Seeking" implies something was lost. "Saving" implies what was lost is a someone.

This is were you lose me. Something lost can be a thing, not necessarily a person. Wishful thinking on my part, I suppose. I want to know what this thing is that was lost, that Jesus sought to save. There may be nothing there, or it could be very significant. Hard to say.

I should read the context. (duh)

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[St. SteVen]

I should read the context. (duh)

Interesting... this is the story of Jesus meeting Zacchaeus. (was a wee little man... )

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[Lambano]

This is were you lose me. Something lost can be a thing, not necessarily a person. Wishful thinking on my part, I suppose. I want to know what this thing is that was lost, that Jesus sought to save....I should read the context. (duh)

The immediate context is in the preceding verse, verse 9.

7 And when they saw it, they all murmured, saying, That he was gone to be guest with a man that is a sinner....9 And Jesus said unto him, "This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham".

(As you can see, my KJV is the red-letter version.)

What was lost? What got saved?

The key word is "save". You wouldn't characterize finding lost inanimate objects like a coin (echo of Luke 15:8-10 intentional) as "rescuing" it. You rescue lost people.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

This is were you lose me. Something lost can be a thing, not necessarily a person. Wishful thinking on my part, I suppose. I want to know what this thing is that was lost, that Jesus sought to save. There may be nothing there, or it could be very significant. Hard to say.

I should read the context. (duh)

Jesus come to seek “that” which was lost …reconciliation? Relationship? Then the question might be why did Jesus come to seek “that” when He was in communication with the Father: only doing what He sees the Father doing, and only saying what He only hears the Father saying. But He “restored” others unto relationship with the Father, reconciling others to the Father.

Maybe the reason other versions refer to a person is because of other text that says: He came to seek the lost sheep of the house of Israel

 

[PGS11]

The bible is pretty clear what was lost - humanity in the fall which is why Jesus came. Forget the semantics get to the truth.

 

[St. SteVen]

The immediate context is in the preceding verse, verse 9.

7 And when they saw it, they all murmured, saying, That he was gone to be guest with a man that is a sinner....9 And Jesus said unto him, "This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham".

I find this statement be Jesus to be curious as well.
- Salvation had come to that house.
- Zacchaeus was declared a son of Abraham.

Was it a whole house (family) that was lost? Or a loss of Jewishness? Had Zacchaeus and family been put out of the synagogue? The crowd was calling Zacchaeus a sinner.

What was lost? What got saved?

Zacchaeus confession vows were curious. Vows of financial restoration and benevolence.

Luke 19:8-9 KJV
And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord:
Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor;
and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation,
I restore him fourfold.
9 And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house,
forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.

]

 

[St. SteVen]

Maybe the reason other versions refer to a person is because of other text that says: He came to seek the lost sheep of the house of Israel

Good post, thanks.
It seems that the modern English translators could only see this as the salvation of humankind. An evangelical bias. ???

Makes you wonder what was driving the traditional English translation? (i.e. the KJV)

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[Hepzibah]

Paradise is what was lost.

 

[Lambano]

Was it a whole house (family) that was lost? Or a loss of Jewishness? Had Zacchaeus and family been put out of the synagogue? The crowd was calling Zacchaeus a sinner.

Good point. Tax collectors were considered to be collaborators with the Roman enemy, as well as crooks. How important is the sense of community, both then and to us now?

Zacchaeus confession vows were curious. Vows of financial restoration and benevolence.

Not confession. Repentance. The dreaded R-word.

 

[St. SteVen]

Paradise is what was lost.

Interesting response. Thanks.

Did Jesus find Paradise and save it?

]

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
Zacchaeus confession vows were curious. Vows of financial restoration and benevolence.

Not confession. Repentance. The dreaded R-word.

Good point. It was repentance. But he did make a public confession of it.
An interesting response to Jesus informing him that they were headed to his house to stay. (abide) ???

Luke 19:5 KJV
And when Jesus came to the place, he looked up, and saw him,
and said unto him, Zacchaeus, make haste, and come down;
for to day I must abide at thy house.

]

 

[Hepzibah]

Interesting response. Thanks.

Did Jesus find Paradise and save it?

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His death opened the entrance into paradise again for man to eat of the tree of life there again.

 

[Lambano]

An interesting response to Jesus informing him that they were headed to his house to stay

The Rabbi is coming over. Gotta get everything cleaned up. Especially me.

 

[Lambano]

Was it a whole house (family) that was lost? Or a loss of Jewishness? Had Zacchaeus and family been put out of the synagogue? The crowd was calling Zacchaeus a sinner.

Or are you saying that community and identity with God's people is a lost thing that Jesus came seek and to restore? Or, "save"?

 

[PGS11]

Why did Jesus come - because all of humanity was condemned universally in the fall to hell for any sin by Satan himself.Jesus came to raise humanity up from the fall and death to new life.If the fall did not happen Jesus would not have had to come to save humanity.Its all right there in Genesis its not that hard to understand accepting it is a different matter.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
Was it a whole house (family) that was lost? Or a loss of Jewishness? Had Zacchaeus and family been put out of the synagogue? The crowd was calling Zacchaeus a sinner.

Or are you saying that community and identity with God's people is a lost thing that Jesus came seek and to restore? Or, "save"?

I think it is something bigger than that, Jesus is known for dropping zinger comments into the discussion that goes over everyone's head. This may be one of those times.

What was lost in the current religious system in Israel that Jesus would seek and save?

It seems they had sold themselves to legalism rather than to righteousness. Rescuing an animal that had fallen in a pit on the Sabbath was a big deal. (hush, hush) Jesus called them out on that.

Matthew 12:9-12 NIV
Going on from that place, he went into their synagogue,
10 and a man with a shriveled hand was there.
Looking for a reason to bring charges against Jesus,
they asked him, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?”
11 He said to them,
“If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath,
will you not take hold of it and lift it out?
12 How much more valuable is a person than a sheep!
Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.”

]

 

[St. SteVen]

Why did Jesus come - because all of humanity was condemned universally in the fall to hell for any sin by Satan himself.Jesus came to raise humanity up from the fall and death to new life.If the fall did not happen Jesus would not have had to come to save humanity.Its all right there in Genesis its not that hard to understand accepting it is a different matter.

Did he in fact seek and save that which was lost?

]

 

[St. SteVen]

What was lost in the current religious system in Israel that Jesus would seek and save?

It seems they had sold themselves to legalism rather than to righteousness.

Does this work as a possible answer to the topic title question?

Was righteousness the thing that Jesus came to seek and to save?

Matthew 3:15
Jesus replied, “Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness.” Then John consented.

Matthew 5:6
Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled.

Matthew 5:10
Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 5:20
For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 6:1
“Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.

Matthew 6:33
But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.

Matthew 21:32
For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him.

Luke 1:75
in holiness and righteousness before him all our days.

Luke 18:9
To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable:

John 16:8
When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment:

John 16:10
about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer;

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