Jesus as co-Creator

[Jordan]

(Morning_Joy;33064)
that sounds good to me brotherSo, is it like this...throughout the Bible, I noticed that God gave some people new names...like Jacob=Israel..because the new name means a new status in a relationship with God.But when Jacob wasn't really being "Israel", God would call him "Jacob". So, do you believe that God calls Himself Father, Son, and Holy Spirit depending on what He is doing in the Bible? What does each of these names mean (Father, Son, Holy Spirit)? For example, does God call Himself "Son", like in "Son of man", to show His humbleness on earth when he was Jesus?
Yes, God is the Son of man because He is a descendant of a special MAN that He created (Genesis 2:7) it after the earlier races He created (Genesis 1:26-28) His name was Adam. In short God being in the flesh (John 1:14) is the second Adam.(Morning_Joy;33066)
this just really confuses me

I feel like I'm on a confusing path right nowIs God our Father or is He a "brother", when Jesus said that anybody who loves Him is His brother/sister/mother?
God is our Father, enough said. When He said that ... "When Jesus said that anybody who loves Him is His brother/sister/mother?" He was flesh. Since He has 100% Faith in Himself, He can't follow sin, He can only follow Himself, which is pure, just, holy etc. So if people follow Him and take up their cross, they are His mother/brother/sister. He was using a flesh term. But God not as flesh, He has no mother/brother/sister, as He only had sons of God (no gender applied)"Whoever denieth Him (not following Him/denying Truth) is not His mother/brother/sister."JagLovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.

 

[Christina]

the trinity is a difficult subject for the human mind to make completey make sense of but there are a couple important things to remember even if you are still a little confusedOne there is only ONE GOD he is three in ONE imagine if you will that you could split yourself into three parts one part could stay home and be a son to your parents another part could go out with your friends and a third part could be at school but you knew what all three parts were doing at all times.This is sort of how God is even when he was here being Christ he was still in heaven and still in spirit. This is so far from what humans can do we have difficulty grasping it as reality but God is God And yes you are right God changes people names to signify different roles or to serve as symbols for example when he calls Satan a serpent he is showing us Satans characterthat is that Satan is sly,sneaking liar. We do the same today if we call someone a snake we do not mean he is a literal snake but that he is acting like one.

 

[Morning_Joy]

oh okayI think I do understand the trinity beliefit's just that I don't think I believe in a "co-Creator". I believe in only one Creator.

 

[EzrahEl21]

Yashu'a said my God My God why has thou forsaken me ( True ) ? If Yashu'a Was / Is God , Can someone tell me who was Yashu'a Praying too ? And if he was God why would he have a need to pray ?:study:

 

[forgivenWretch]

co-creator.....

 

[Morning_Joy]

I don't believe in a co-creator, nor a co-God, nor a co-Saviour.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

(EzrahEl21;35557)
Yashu'a said my God My God why has thou forsaken me ( True ) ? If Yashu'a Was / Is God , Can someone tell me who was Yashu'a Praying too ? And if he was God why would he have a need to pray ?:study:
And who is God talking to before the creation of Man. And who does John say was with God before there was anything?

 

[Jordan]

(EzrahEl21;35557)
Yashu'a said my God My God why has thou forsaken me ( True ) ? If Yashu'a Was / Is God , Can someone tell me who was Yashu'a Praying too ? And if he was God why would he have a need to pray ?:study:
He was teaching us even though he was taking a taste of the flesh death for all of mankind.If He was not God, why did He not correct the "Jews" saying "I am not God when the "Jews" cast a stone at Him.John 10:30 - I and my Father are one.John 10:31 - Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.John 10:32 - Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?John 10:33 - The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.John 10:34 - Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?John 10:35 - If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.JagLovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.

 

[EzrahEl21]

(DrBubbaLove;35661)
And who is God talking to before the creation of Man. And who does John say was with God before there was anything?
If Your Speaking Of John 1 ; 1 , Yes . You Can't Be With Someone And Be That Person . Check This Out Ok .There Is No Way To Have A Trinity Without First Separating Each Of The Three Things Indivdually To Declare Then A Trinity . By That I Mean , You Have To First Establish That There Is A Father One Thing And A Son Another Thing And A Holy Ghost The Thrid Thing , In order For These Things To Totally Mix And Become One Thing . They Would Have To Start Off Equal In Rank , Quantity . Space , Density , Authority , Or Existence . In Admitting That The Son Came From The Father , Time Make The Difference , The Father Would Have To Had Been First , Before The Son . This Would Make Them Unequal And Incapable Of Becoming A Balanced Triad . No It Did Not Mean That When It Said God The Father ,,, God The Son , And God The Holy Ghost = One God .. Because Three Cannot Go Into One .

 

[EzrahEl21]

(thesuperjag;35674)
He was teaching us even though he was taking a taste of the flesh death for all of mankind.If He was not God, why did He not correct the "Jews" saying "I am not God when the "Jews" cast a stone at Him.John 10:30 - I and my Father are one.John 10:31 - Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.John 10:32 - Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?John 10:33 - The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.John 10:34 - Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?John 10:35 - If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.JagLovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.
If Yashu'a Was God How Could He Forsaken Himself (Matthew 27 ; 46 ... Mark 15; 34 ) And If He Was God Who Was He Calling Out To Himself ? I Thought God So Loved The World , That He Sent His Son To Die For You .. If That's True As John 3; 16 Says , Then Jesus Had Nothing To Do With It It Was That Father That Sent Him . In Matthew 6 ; 9 As Jesus Say '' Our Father Who Art In Heaven '' Because Jesus Say In John 13 ; 16 '' I Am Not Greater Than He Who Sent Me '' And In John 5; 30 He Says Again That '' I On My Own Accord Can Do Nothing '' Call No Man Father , Because There Is One Father Who Art In Heaven And Jesus Says Clearly In Matthew 23; 9 '' And Call No Man Your Father Upon The Earth And If It Was About His Father's Will Then Why Did Jesus SAy In Matthew 26; 38 >> If Be Possible Let This Cup Pass By Me ; Nevertheless Not As I Will , But As Thou Wilt '' Let Me Point Out A Few Points From Your Bible Stating That Jesus Couldn't Possibly Be God .. Mark 15 ; 34 >> Jesus cried out with a loud voice My God , My God Why have thou Forsaken Me . Then was Jesus led up of the spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil > And What Could The Devil Possibly Offer The Creator Of Everything . Luke 14 ; 26 >> If anyman come to me , and hate not his Father And Mother And Wife And Chrildren And Brethren And Sister , Yea And His Own Life Also , He Cannot Be My Disciple . In My Father House Are Many Mansions .>>> Jesus Said In My Father's House , He [ Didsn't Say In My House ] Would It Have Made Sense To Say In My House [ If He Was God ? ] Luke 2; 49 >> That I Must Be About My Father's Business '>> If Jesus Was God Why Did He Say I Must Be Of My Fathers Business , He Indicated . [ The Distinction Between Him And His Father .

 

[Morning_Joy]

I will answer to "Who was God talking to before the creation of man?"I'm not going to lean on any side. I'm just expressing all views I know of. Some people believe God was talking to the other two persons of the trinity. Three people in one God.Some people believe God may have been talking with His court of angels. I learned more about this view on this site. And a new theory I learned is that some people believe God may have been taking counsel with Himself.

 

[EzrahEl21]

When Ever You See '' We '' Or '' Us '' In The Scripture It Is Actually Referring To God As '' Eloheem . '' Thus The '' God '' Of The Bible Is A Part Of A Group Of Gods . Genesis 1; 26 RighTranslation In Aramic ( Hebrew ) And The Eloheem / Anunnaqi Said Amongst Themselves '' Now Let's Breed By Cloning People , Lulu Amelu A Homo - Sapien Of This Planet Earth Adamites Looking Just Like Ourselves , Anunnaqi , And Acting Like Ourdelves And We Will Give The Rulership Over The Fish Of The Sea , And Birds Of The Skies , And Over All Of The Non Speaking Mammals , And All Of The Creeping Thing That Greep Upon The Planet Earth '' Genesis 1 ; 26 And God Said , Let Us Make Man In Our Image , After Our Likeness And Let Them Have Dominion Over The Fish Of The Sea And Over The Fowl Of The Air , And Over The Cattle . And Over All The Earth , And Over Every Creeping Thing That Creepeth Upon The Earth . Eloheem = Plural For God's Meaning More The One Gen 6 ; 2 ; 6; 4 ; Job 1 ; 6 ; 2 ; 1 ; Psalm 82 ; 1 ; 82 ; 6 ; John 10 ; 34 - 35 , Eloheem Are The Angels Of El Or Messengers Of El . They Are A Host Of Beings That Do The Work Of El . Eloheem Are Found In The Beginning Of The Torah Genesis Chapter 1 And The Word Is Mistranslated As GOD ( Genesis 1 ; 1 ) . When It Was Translated Into English To Give The Impression That Its A Single Form , When It Is Really Plural . It's Plural Because Of The Last Two Letters '' Im '' Or '' Yod Mem '' In Aramic ( Hebrew ) . When This Is Added To The End Of A Hebrew Word , It Denotes Plurality . The Greek Theh - Os , In The New Testament Is Equivalent To The Word Eloheem . The Name '' Eloheem '' Is Used For Both Agreeable And Disagreeable Beings . If You Write Down The Word '' Eloheem '' You Will Find This Word Is Grammatically The Plural Form Of A Noun . The Lettrs '' Yod Mem , In The Hebrew Language Are Found At The End Of Ancient Syretic Words Which Have Been Grafted Into The Arabic Language . Hebrew Plurals In The Masculine , End In '' Im '' Yod Mem '' . To Add A ' S '' To This When We Introduce Such Words Into English , Is Improper . Therefore , The Word Should Be Written '' Cherubim ''' Not '' Cherubims '' . This Is To Show You That If Eloheem Can Be Defined As A Plural ( Meaning Gods And Goddesses ) ; How Can This Be Referring To El Eloh ? Within The Word Eloheem Is The Plural '' Im '' Which Mean '' They '' These Beings '' . So The Make It Clear To Everyone That The Ancient Hebrew Word Eloheem With The Last Two Letters Added Becomes Merely A Derivative Of Eloh , Which Is A Derivative From El , And If It Is A Derivative , Meaning Derived From . It Means Taken From The Original , Not The Original . Then It Can't Be The One Deity (God ) Because The One Deity Has To Be The Root Of All The Derivative , Not A Part Of The Root . Now El Can Be Part Of The Eloheem Which Is The Plural Of El ( The AngelicBeings ) Because Some Of Him Is In The Angels . He Of Course Is A Part Of The Eloheem ; Which Means They Are Also Refered To As The '' We '' Or '' Us '' . Deuteronomy 5 ; 7 < Right Traslation In Aramic ( Hebrew ) You Are To Hold Loyalty To No Other Eloheem Deuteronomy 5 ; 7 < King Jame 1611 A.D. >:study:

 

[EzrahEl21]

Thou Shalt Have None Other Gods Before Me '' The Purpose Of Explanning This Word Is So That You Can Better OverStand That The Word '' Eloheem '' Could Not Be Referring To One Entity , As These Translators Believe That At Times El Eloh And His AngelicBeings Are Referred To In The The Scriptures , Ask Them To Explain Why It Is Found In The Torah ? Of Course They Can't , Because They Aren't Versed In The Original Aramic ( Hebrew ) Language , So I'll Explain To You Why . First Lets Take The Word Allahumma Koran 3 ; 26 < Arabic >Say ; '' O Allahumma ( The Eloheem / Anunnaqi ) . You Are The Maalik '' Ruler '' Of Al Mulki ' The Rulership ' You Give Al Mulks The Rulership To Whomere You Please , And You Remove Al Mulka The Rulership ' From Whomever You Please ; And You ( Forify ) Tu'izzu Make Mighty ' Who You Please , And You Tudhillu Humble '' Whomever You Please , By ( The Aid Of ) Yadika ' Your Hands , Al Khayr

 

[EzrahEl21]

Behold , God Is My Salvation ; I Will Trust , And Not Be Afraid ; For The Lord Jehovah Is My Strength And My Song ; He Also Is Become My Salvation . ''The Word El Or Al Is An Old Demonstrative Pronoun Slightly Pointing Out A Thing . The Following Definitions Have Been Taken From '' The Concise Staement Of The Principle Of Hebrew Grammar '' Published By Edward C . Mitchell . Hebrew ; El Arabic ; Al Used In The Sense Of The This Word Mean '' The '' It Is A Creator Being The Almighty Definite Article Pointing Out A Creator , It Literally Means Certain Thing , The Name Of Allah Strong , Power , Mighty One Is Made Up Of This Definite Article AL Or '' The '' And The Pronun Lahu Or '' For Him '' . Elowah ; Is Mentioned In Daniel 11 ; 38 , Daniel 11 ; 38 < Right Translation In Aramic ( Hebrew ) But In His Estate Will He Honour The Eloh Of Forces ; And A Eloh Whom His Father Knew Not Will He Honour With Gold , And Silver And With Precious Stones , And Pleasant Things . Daniel 11 ; 38 < King James 1611 A.D. > But In His Estate Shall He Honor The God Of Forces ; And A God Whom His Father Knew Not Shall He Honor With Gold And Silver , And With Precious Stones , And Pleasant Things . '' The Word Elowah Is Referring To Creator In The Preceding Quotes And Is Is Mistranslated As God , Elowah Is A Derivative Of The Word El . It Comes From The Ancient Form Of The Word Alahhu Or Elahh . Has Becaome Obsolete In The Hebrew Language , And It Corresponds With The Arabic Word Alaha or Ilaahi . Alahhu Or Elahh Alaha To Worship And To Adore To Worship , Swear , Adore ; From To Swear , From This Comes Thus You Get The Name Of The Eloah , Which Corresponds Creator Al Khaaliq . Of The Creator . Elahha Or Alahhu In Aramic For Alaha , Closely Resembles The Arabic Word Alaha . This Is Further Proof That Hebrew , Aramic And Arabic Are The Same Language . From The Ancient Chaldean Language , Both El . And Elowah Are In The Singular Tense . These Are The Same Words ! Just Look Close And You Will See They Are The Same . < Look At The Diagram Below > Aramic Arabic Eloahum ( Eloheem ) Allahumma Eloheem Is The Plural Of The Word Allahuma Is The Plural For The Alahhu , A Definition Given From Name Allah . The Plural A Hebrew Dictionary Entitled A Concise Hum Is A Representation Statement Of The Principle Of Hebrew Of The Creator And His Angelic Grammar '' By Edward G . Mitchell States Bening Also '' Allah And All His Eloahim Is A Plural Tense Of The Word Attributes '' The Attributes Called Goddesses . ( Psalms 71;17 ; 72 ; 1 ) The Koran 3 ;26 , 10 ; 10 , 39 , 46 What They Are Not Telling You Is That This Word Eloahim Is Not In Quraish Or Modern Arabic Terms Or Even In The Terms Of The Modern Classical Arabic Used In The Koran . But It Is Another One Of Those Word That Has Been Grafted From . The Hebrew Term Eloahim . Which Came From The Syretic Term Brought From The Phoenicians , And The Babylonians. Originally From Cuneiform . It Is A Fact That Allahumma ( Or Eloahim ) Is Grammatically A Plural Word . It Is Made From Two Words , Allah And Hum Which Is The Arabic Suffix For '' Them '' Just Like The Jews And The Muslims , Christian Etc , Find The Word '' We '' Used In The Scriptures ( The Torah And The Koran Etc . ) ( And Still Say It Is A Singular Word ) Now Ask Them How Can '' We '' Be < Singular > ? If God Would Have Wanted It To Be < Singular > He Would Have Said '' I ' :study:

 

[Christina]

(EzrahEl21;35557)
Yashu'a said my God My God why has thou forsaken me ( True ) ? If Yashu'a Was / Is God , Can someone tell me who was Yashu'a Praying too ? And if he was God why would he have a need to pray ?:study:
He wasnt as much praying as teaching he was directing you to Psalm 22 where his Crucifiction had been prophesized some 1000 years earlier to show he was the prophisized messiah of scripture this prophecy was detailed right down to the very close he was wearing

 

[Christina]

(EzrahEl21;35710)
If Your Speaking Of John 1 ; 1 , Yes . You Can't Be With Someone And Be That Person . Check This Out Ok .There Is No Way To Have A Trinity Without First Separating Each Of The Three Things Indivdually To Declare Then A Trinity . By That I Mean , You Have To First Establish That There Is A Father One Thing And A Son Another Thing And A Holy Ghost The Thrid Thing , In order For These Things To Totally Mix And Become One Thing . They Would Have To Start Off Equal In Rank , Quantity . Space , Density , Authority , Or Existence . In Admitting That The Son Came From The Father , Time Make The Difference , The Father Would Have To Had Been First , Before The Son . This Would Make Them Unequal And Incapable Of Becoming A Balanced Triad . No It Did Not Mean That When It Said God The Father ,,, God The Son , And God The Holy Ghost = One God .. Because Three Cannot Go Into One .
You are made in his image you are three in one you are body mind and soulyour flesh dies are you gone ?? No you have a soul with mind and heartthe fact that these three parts of God can work together or seperate each having full knowledge of God can not be put into words we could easily understand

 

[EzrahEl21]

(kriss;35745)
He wasnt as much praying as teaching he was directing you to Psalm 22 where his Crucifiction had been prophesized some 1000 years earlier to show he was the prophisized messiah of scripture this prophecy was detailed right down to the very close he was wearing
Who Is Yashu'a Talking Too In This Verse . Matthew 6 ; 9 And I Quote ; "This, then, is how you should pray: " 'Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, :study:

 

[DrBubbaLove]

(EzrahEl21;35710)
If Your Speaking Of John 1 ; 1 , Yes . You Can't Be With Someone And Be That Person . Check This Out Ok .There Is No Way To Have A Trinity Without First Separating Each Of The Three Things Indivdually To Declare Then A Trinity . By That I Mean , You Have To First Establish That There Is A Father One Thing And A Son Another Thing And A Holy Ghost The Thrid Thing , In order For These Things To Totally Mix And Become One Thing . They Would Have To Start Off Equal In Rank , Quantity . Space , Density , Authority , Or Existence . In Admitting That The Son Came From The Father , Time Make The Difference , The Father Would Have To Had Been First , Before The Son . This Would Make Them Unequal And Incapable Of Becoming A Balanced Triad . No It Did Not Mean That When It Said God The Father ,,, God The Son , And God The Holy Ghost = One God .. Because Three Cannot Go Into One .
Yes, we have to have Three Persons and One Nature in order to have a Trinity and One God. The question and understanding goes to what a nature and a person means.How it is possible or can we fully comprehend God in this life, we deny knowing. So no matter what one believes, in some sense God remains in many ways a mystery to us, something that we cannot "see" or "know" FULLY in this life.Having said that, there are things that He has revealed to us. Many Christians hold that the orthodox Trinity doctrine is one of these things. Now to your point about that doctrine.It is true the Father is both unbegotten and First. However, in what sense can we say He is "first" in time? The teaching is that Jesus is the Word of the Father. So is it possible to imagine the Father existing at any "time" without His Word? Is the Father speechless before begetting Jesus? Jesus is "Begotten not Made" means something. But what? Ok, Jesus is uncreated by the Father. So how did Jesus come to be? The tradition and orthodox answer is that both the Father and Jesus are and have always existed. You cannot have Father without His Word.Another way to look at it, is that we all have an idea in our minds of who we are. That idea may not agree with what others think of us and it may be an imperfect idea, but none the less, we have a picture in our mind of who we are. We can do that because we are rational beings, created that way. While science tells us we are not born with this image of ourselves, it is something that developes as we mature. And in the sense that we can picture it, the image of ourself is real, but of course we cannot touch it and it is not something that exists as it's own person. It is just my image of me. Like looking at myself in a mirror, it is my reflection, not another person.Now God the Father, Creator of All things is certainly a rational Being, no one would argue that. So like us, He too would have an Image of Himself that He could conceive, reflecting on Himself. But what kind of Image would that be? God the Father is Perfect in all ways. That is the meaning of fully Divine. So that Image would have to be Perfect, a Perfect Reflection of Himself. (God from God, True God from True God, Light from Light.) In fact a such Perfect and fully complete Image of God the Father, that Image would BE, would EXIST, which means that Reflection is a Person and is God. And as God the Father is never changing, is uncreated, has always "been"; the realization is then that such an Image of Himself must have also always never changed, is begotten from the Father's mind/Will and has always "been"/existed.So in this view of the Trinity, in saying that the Father is First, it is only True in the sense that in order for the Son to be, there has to be a Father. The Son "proceeds" from the Father. The Son is the Perfect EXPRESSION of the Mind of the Father, another way of saying His Word! It cannot really be said to be true in any sense we have of time. Just as we can say the Love of Father for His Image, Himself, His Son and the Son for His Father is so Real, we have the Holy Spirit; who is also never changing and always existing.

 

[Christina]

(EzrahEl21;35754)
Who Is Yashu'a Talking Too In This Verse . Matthew 6 ; 9 And I Quote ; "This, then, is how you should pray: " 'Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, :study:
He is teaching not speaking to any single individual he was teaching Same way I might say call me and ask for kriss does that mean Im not talking about myself??

 

[DrBubbaLove]

I mentioned needing a definition but forgot to add that a nature answers what something is, person answers who. In this case we must distinguish the two in order for Trinity doctrine to make any sense at all. We all have human natures. Each of us is a person, what kind of person? A human person. There can be many human persons. With God the Nature is Divine and as such there can be Only One. A Perfect Reflection of the Divine, must be.... well, Divine. Still there can be Only One and that comes from the definintion of what we mean in saying a Being is Divine. Person in the Trinity answers Who and as we attempted to explain in the post above the orthodox Trinity doctrine teaches that there are Three distinct Persons, with One Will because there is Only One Divine Nature, One God. Other than a poor attempt at explaining how it is that Three Persons exist with One Nature, One in Being, I do not think we can say much more than it is believed it is so.