JESUS AND THE TWELVE PREACHED A DIFFERENT GOSPEL ***

[Doug]

Right.
So it was revealed to both the apostles and to Paul.

So why are you pitting Paul against the apostles?

The apostles mentioned in Ephesians 3:5 are not the twelve apostles.
First of all the verse says "now" revealed and it was "not made known" to others.
There were apostles set in the church Ephesians 4:11 1 Corinthians 12:28

 

[Doug]

@Doug
What I seem to be getting from you is a lot of non-answers to my points.

I have done my best to answer you.
You have yet to answer what kingdom Jesus was preaching in Matthew 4:17 so I will be glad to.
He was preaching the Davidic kingdom promised the fathers throughout scripture such as in 1 Kings 9:5 and Paul says in Romans 15:8 was a minister of the circumcision to confirm the promises made unto the fathers.

 

[Mungo]

My response to what you posted below

"the mystery of the cross that would justify all freely"
Are you suggesting universalism?

I asked what relevance your comment had. not what was my post.

 

[Mungo]

I have done my best to answer you.
You have yet to answer what kingdom Jesus was preaching in Matthew 4:17 so I will be glad to.
He was preaching the Davidic kingdom promised the fathers throughout scripture such as in 1 Kings 9:5 and Paul says in Romans 15:8 was a minister of the circumcision to confirm the promises made unto the fathers.

Actually Davy has answered that in post #75 when he thoroughly demolished your claims.

 

[Mungo]

The apostles mentioned in Ephesians 3:5 are not the twelve apostles.
First of all the verse says "now" revealed and it was "not made known" to others.
There were apostles set in the church Ephesians 4:11 1 Corinthians 12:28

Now you being ridiculous.

 

[H. Richard]

hr, i love you man ok? Andimo no one here ever told you that "God demands good works," but rather all must come before the judgement seat of Christ to be judged for their works done while in the body, whether good or evil. No demands whatever, right?

So i hope you understand and maybe even might come to forgive me for my past replies to you ok, i have no doubt that your works are likely better than mine, as i have said.
However you will be judged for your works, and idc what your dad accused you of, ok, you are perfect just like you are, certainly. But see God is not our judge. You must reap what you sow.

Do you have any unconfessed sin, that someone might bring a complaint against you?
i srsly doubt it, as you do not strike me as that kind of guy.
But confession leads to salvation, yes?

imo you are not sinning hr, you are just being tortured
View attachment 7746

and imo go with mom ok, if that applies.
ok peace
Matthew 16:24 Lexicon: Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me.
you dont get to just pick your favorite vv, ok

Normally I do not reply to what you write. But here is your answer to my standing in fear of my Heavenly Fathers judgments.

Rom 4:13-15
13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14 For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect,
15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.
NKJV

Rom 8:15-17
15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out,"Abba, Father."
16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
17 and if children, then heirs — heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.
NKJV

Gal 3:26-29
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
NKJV

Gal 4:1-7
4 Now I say that the heir, as long as he is a child, does not differ at all from a slave, though he is master of all,
2 but is under guardians and stewards until the time appointed by the father.
3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world.
4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law,
5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, "Abba, Father!"
7 Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
NKJV

I am a child of God. Made one by the baptism of the Holy Spirit when I placed ALL my belief, faith, trust and confidence in what God (Jesus) did for me on the cross.

 

[Doug]

Your claim in the thread title is not a realistic claim. If you're not seeing what our Lord Jesus preached and what His Apostles preached as the same... Gospel, then it is because you are not understanding what all is contained in The Gospel of Jesus Christ, and/or instead have allowed men's leaven to creep in.

God's promise to David about one sitting on his throne unto all generations is a mystery. David's throne is still manifested here on earth today, but not in Jerusalem, and it is established in the Gospel of Jesus Christ, literally not just spiritually. If you're not aware of that it means you haven't yet understood about God's Birthright promises that began with Abraham, and continued to Ephraim and Manasseh, whom it still continues among today:

1 Chron 5:1-2
5:1 Now the sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel, (for he was the firstborn; but, forasmuch as he defiled his father's bed, his birthright was given unto the sons of Joseph the son of Israel: and the genealogy is not to be reckoned after the birthright.
2 For Judah prevailed above his brethren, and of him came the chief ruler; but the birthright was Joseph's:)
KJV

Genesis 49:10 is another Scripture proof that David's throne is still manifested here on earth with one of the house of David sitting upon it, which is to continue like that until Jesus returns (rendered as "Shiloh" there).

Our Lord Jesus in Matthew 21 revealed the kingdom would be taken from the unbelieving Jews in Jerusalem and instead given to a "nation" that would bring forth the fruits of the vineyard. Those fruits represent the spread of The Gospel and those who would believe, of both Israelite and Gentile, and they would become one body under Christ Jesus.



And that reign over nations has historically been true with what peoples after God ended David's throne in Jerusalem back in Jeremiah's day? With the western Christian nations under The Gospel. This has been true historically especially at the height of colonial rule by the western Christian nations. The Christian west are financially bailing out poorer nations still, lending them monies. Can't apply this to the Jews either, for the state of Israel in the middle east no longer existed when this happened since the Romans destroyed it in 70 A.D. The Christian nations were instrumental in helping the Jews to re-establish their nation state of Israel in the middle east in 1947.



Not just the believing remnant of Israel will possess the kingdom but also the believing Gentiles, together 'with' Israel. Christ's Church is made up of both, together, as one body. Both inherit together.
John Nelson Darby with his Dispensationalism was instrumental in hiding this, since he falsely taught that at Christ's return Israel is a separate restored kingdom on earth while Jesus and His Church reign from Heaven. Darby and et al, created that idea to help drum up support for the Pre-trib Rapture theory.



That is not the proper interpretation of what Jesus said. When He said He was not sent 'but' unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel, He was pointing to the ten scattered tribes of the "house of Israel" that were not... even present in the holy land at His 1st coming. Your interpretation doesn't even recognize the Bible history about God's split of the old kingdom of Israel after Solomon's days (see 1 Kings 11 thru 2 Kings 17). After that happened only the ten northern tribes of Israel were known as the "house of Israel". The southern kingdom of Judah was known as the "house of Judah" (Jews). Not long after that split, which was long before Jesus' 1st coming and Ministry on earth, the majority of the ten tribes were still scattered beyond Euphrates.

So what did our Lord Jesus really mean with that Matthew 15:24 prophecy? Easy. He, meaning The Gospel, was actually sent to the scattered ten lost tribes, i.e., the "house of Israel" that was scattered among the Gentiles, and they along with the Gentiles would believe. Did this literally happen after the majority of Jews in Judea rejected Jesus? You bet it did! The nations where Christ's disciples preached The Gospel after His death and resurrection began to put away their idols and became the Christian nations of history! And it was a miraculous transformation. So by the idea of His being 'sent', it pointed to the receiving of The Gospel. Since Apostle Paul in Romans 11 showed God had blinded the Jews in Jerusalem so The Gospel would go to the Gentiles, it is the same kind of idea. Thus The Gospel had to be preached first at Jerusalem, but God's Plan wasn't that they would be the main ones ordained to receive it.
Thus our Lord Jesus was actually confirming The Gospel going to the nations.



So didn't this happen when the lost sheep of the house of Israel received Christ Jesus along with Gentiles they were scattered among? Yes, it did. So to treat believing Israel as a separate body from Christ's Church is un-Biblical. Christ's future Kingdom on earth is about His Church. The deceived like Darby, Scofield, et al, on the Pre-trib Rapture are confused about this and teach against written Scripture.

(Cont.)

I did not say Jesus and the twelve preached a gospel different from each other, they all preached the gospel of the kingdom.....you misunderstood.

The promise to David that his throne would never lack one to sit on it was not mystery, but prophecy.

Matthew 21:43 is saying the kingdom would be taking from the nation Israel and given to a holy nation (Exodus 19:6) which is the Israel of God (Galatians 6:16), the believing remnant of Israel.

 

[amadeus]

As far as to whether we should be concerned as to dispensations or other gospels:

I think it would be fair to say past dispensations reveals the gospel of God, the progressive revelation of his purpose and plan for our redemption which was preached by Paul as well. God felt it was important to place it in scripture for our learning 2 Timothy 3:16. As to whether dispensations exist, they do if you think the KJV is the preserved word of God in which dispensation appears 4 times.

Does a dispensation reveal anything... or is it God that reveals what a person needs to know? Perhaps God will use such things to reveal things sometimes, but should we try to put Him into a dispensational bottle of any other bottle... simply because God perhaps showed you something good along that route?

You speak of the Bible [KJV or...?] as the preserved "word of God", but I look at it [the Bible] more as the dead but not yet resurrected Jesus. He went to the cross still alive, but then he died. That is what we hold in our hand, ink on paper, named scriptures, but dead. Then Jesus was resurrected... He came back to Life by the power of God. Similarly as we consume his dead flesh, [by reading or hearing the words of scripture] the unquenched Holy Spirit in us will bring that flesh to Life in us and then in the measure that is done we have a measure of the Word of God in us.

"[God] Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life." II Cor 3:6

If and when we have the Word [not dead words] in us, ultimately, how important can dispensations be?

We have been given the ministry of reconciliation which is only found as revealed to Paul, our ministry is not found elsewhere and can only be carried out by knowing where to find our gospel, what it is, and how it differs.

I can only guess as to exactly what you mean by this, "ministry of reconciliation". I suppose you mean God bringing us back to where Adam and Eve were before they partook of the forbidden fruit. Even though Paul was a chosen vessel of God, Paul, himself, and any dead words he wrote still cannot save a single person.

Does a person have to understand what the terms or words, "ministry of reconciliation" and "dispensation" and "gospel", mean in order to move closer to God? Very likely there are some people on planet Earth today who don't know the meaning of those terms who nevertheless are walking closer to God than you or me. Sometimes all of this theological knowledge actual stands a barrier between us and God. Don't you believe that? I know that I do.

As to a ministry, our ministry, what is that? What our ministry is: mine or yours of that of another can be found in ourselves by the Living Word of God in us if we have any measure of it. If we really do, then in what measure are we serving others... for is that not how a man ministers according the scriptures? What was it that Jesus said?

"Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.
If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet." John 13:13-14

Whose feet have we washed lately? Do we suppose that knowing the difference between a dispensation and a gospel will help a person humble himself as Jesus humbled himself? Jesus certainly had more knowledge than any of those around him, but was it that knowledge that led people, his enemies even, to say things such as "... Never man spake like this man." John 7:46 ?

What is a ministry anyway? What is our ministry? A ministry is NOT a study or a way of studying. It should be a way of serving others. Shouldn't it be the way we to wash someone else's feet?

God gave us Paul and Apollos and others to plant and weed and to water, but when it comes down to it... only God gives any real increase. Someone really on God's side all of the time will get to where God wants him to get without regard to which denomination he cleaves to or not; or to which dispensational group he belongs or not.

What did the woman who washed the feet of Jesus with her tears know about gospels or dispensations or denominations? Since she came to know Jesus, what did she need to know of those things?

 

[Davy]

As far as to whether we should be concerned as to dispensations or other gospels:

I think it would be fair to say past dispensations reveals the gospel of God, the progressive revelation of his purpose and plan for our redemption which was preached by Paul as well. God felt it was important to place it in scripture for our learning 2 Timothy 3:16. As to whether dispensations exist, they do if you think the KJV is the preserved word of God in which dispensation appears 4 times.

We have been given the ministry of reconciliation which is only found as revealed to Paul, our ministry is not found elsewhere and can only be carried out by knowing where to find our gospel, what it is, and how it differs.

One can argue dispensations of God's Plan of Salvation all they like, but adding dispensations by separating the one Gospel of Jesus Christ into two factions based on a couple of verses by Apostle Paul which are taken out of context is to violate the simplicity of God's written Word.

 

[Davy]

Paul calls it my gospel, according to the mystery, and revealed by Christ (Romans 16:25 Ephesians 3:2-7) which distinguishes it from the gospels preached by Jesus and the twelve.

Paul's gospel preached the cross, the death for our sins and resurrection for our justification ( 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 Romans 4:25). Jesus preached his death and resurrection as fulfilled prophecy (Matthew 26:54 John 19:28). Jesus preached his shed blood for the new testament for Israel only (Hebrews 9:15). Paul preached the blood for forgiveness of sin for all (Ephesians 1:7) and all are justified freely in Christ (Romans 3:24).

The gospels are not in conflict or contradictory. The gospel of the kingdom was for Israel to reconcile the earth and fulfill their promises. All who believed that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of God (John 3:16 John 20:31) were saved unto eternal life.

Apostle Paul was not creating another gospel when he said my gospel.

2 Tim 2:8
8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:
KJV

Wasn't Christ raised from the dead according to the Gospel the other Apostles preached? Yes, of course. So to pivot on Paul saying 'my' really shows men's leaven ignorance.

The only difference with Apostle Paul was that Christ appeared to him personally and revealed the Gospel to him, and then sent him to preach mainly to the Gentiles. But Paul preached the same Gospel to the Jews also.

In 1 Corinthians 9:17, the word "dispensation" Paul actually used is a Greek word in the manuscripts that means 'administration'. Paul was given an administration in the one Gospel, not another gospel. The men who preach two separate gospels do so in ignorance.

 

[Davy]

The apostles mentioned in Ephesians 3:5 are not the twelve apostles.
First of all the verse says "now" revealed and it was "not made known" to others.
There were apostles set in the church Ephesians 4:11 1 Corinthians 12:28

The apostles that Paul mentioned in Ephesians 3:5 definitely ARE... about Christ's twelve Apostles. The OT prophets are part of that foundation of Christ's Church also...

Eph 2:19-21
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone;

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
KJV

So the Eph.3:5 'prophets' may refer to NT prophets, but not necessarily to later apostles than the twelve, and they witnessed The Gospel of Jesus Christ whereas Paul didn't. Thus, can't use that Eph.3:5 verse to try and serve some different gospel idea.

 

[Davy]

I did not say Jesus and the twelve preached a gospel different from each other, they all preached the gospel of the kingdom.....you misunderstood.

I didn't misunderstand you. I well know what leaven you are pushing. It's a leaven doctrine of men that began with John Darby in 1830s Britain, his theory of Dispensationalism, and then E.W. Bullinger took the idea further with Hyper-Dispensationalism, which is what you are pushing here. It is the idea that there are two different gospels, one for Israel and another for Gentiles. That is not what God's Word teaches at all though. Those men who started that leaven try and take advantage of every simple word to use as a pivot to falsely point to their doctrine, like with the word 'my' with Paul saying 'my gospel' that I covered in a previous post here.

The promise to David that his throne would never lack one to sit on it was not mystery, but prophecy.

But it's definitely a mystery to you, because you haven't understood it, which I can tell by your writing that Christ is now sitting on that throne in heaven when He is not, not yet, because David's throne is an EARTHLY throne.

Matt 25:31-32
31 When the Son of man shall come in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
KJV

I can understand someone who doesn't speak English very well not understanding what that above verse says in red. But those raised speaking English have no excuse in not knowing it means at Christ's return is when He will sit upon that throne. That just happens to be the throne of David, on earth. That is the throne promised to Jesus.

Matthew 21:43 is saying the kingdom would be taking from the nation Israel and given to a holy nation (Exodus 19:6) which is the Israel of God (Galatians 6:16), the believing remnant of Israel.

Wrong again. You ADDED to Scripture, which is definitely not a light thing. It does not say it would be given to "a holy nation" referring to Exodus 19:6 unless you cite the Revelation 1:6 verse about Christ's Church as the kings and priests. And in that case it is definitely... about Christ's Church, and not just Israel only.

Here is what Jesus said...

Matt 21:43
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
KJV

Did you notice that qualifier of which nation, with "bringing forth the fruits thereof"? What kind of nation is it that is to bring forth fruits in The Gospel of Jesus Christ, whom Jesus has made kings and priests??? Answer: the Christian nations under Jesus Christ. It means Christ's Church under the New Covenant.

 

[Davy]

Normally I do not reply to what you write. But here is your answer to my standing in fear of my Heavenly Fathers judgments.

Rom 4:13-15
13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14 For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect,
15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.
NKJV

You cannot try to isolate those 3 verses from what Apostle Paul was teaching in Romans 4 about Abraham's faith. You left out the next 16th verse which is where Paul made his point...

Rom 4:13-18
13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations; according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
KJV

Paul was simply explained there that the Promise by Faith is what was first given to Abraham, and he believed God, and it was counted to Abraham as righteousness. And that was 430 years before... the law was given. So the law cannot annul the Promise, because that Promise is by Faith, and not by works of the law. Very... simple when you stick to what is actually written.

Gal 3:17-18
17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
KJV

That first part in red is about the Promise by Faith which God first gave Abraham, which had nothing to do with the law given later, even 430 years later. Verse 18 makes it even more plain. Abraham's inheritance is not by the law. It is by his Faith on God's Promise which was given first. And that is the same Promise we have believed through our Lord Jesus Christ. Thus as Paul says in that Galatians 3 chapter, those of Faith are the children of Abraham, and we inherit with faithful Abraham.

Rom 8:15-17
15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out,"Abba, Father."
16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
17 and if children, then heirs — heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.
NKJV

Joint heirs with Christ means joint heirs in His Kingdom. Per the end of Gal.3, Christ's Church inherits with Abraham.

Gal 3:26-29
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
NKJV

Verse 29 is simple that Christ's Church inherits with Abraham according to that Promise by Faith first given him.

Gal 4:1-7
4 Now I say that the heir, as long as he is a child, does not differ at all from a slave, though he is master of all,
2 but is under guardians and stewards until the time appointed by the father.
3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world.
4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law,
5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, "Abba, Father!"
7 Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
NKJV

I am a child of God. Made one by the baptism of the Holy Spirit when I placed ALL my belief, faith, trust and confidence in what God (Jesus) did for me on the cross.

All... those who believe on The Father through His Son Jesus Christ are children of God. And we inherit with Christ, and with Abraham what God promised him. There is no separation of the future restored kingdom of Israel on earth and Christ's Church. The Pre-trib Rapture theory is a lie from men's leaven and is not written in God's Word. Christ will gather His Church on the last day of this present world and take us to Jerusalem on earth to reign over all nations. That is where His throne will be established, on earth. And we will reign on the earth as written in Revelation 5:10.

 

[Doug]

I didn't misunderstand you. I well know what leaven you are pushing. It's a leaven doctrine of men that began with John Darby in 1830s Britain, his theory of Dispensationalism, and then E.W. Bullinger took the idea further with Hyper-Dispensationalism, which is what you are pushing here. It is the idea that there are two different gospels, one for Israel and another for Gentiles. That is not what God's Word teaches at all though. Those men who started that leaven try and take advantage of every simple word to use as a pivot to falsely point to their doctrine, like with the word 'my' with Paul saying 'my gospel' that I covered in a previous post here.



But it's definitely a mystery to you, because you haven't understood it, which I can tell by your writing that Christ is now sitting on that throne in heaven when He is not, not yet, because David's throne is an EARTHLY throne.

Matt 25:31-32
31 When the Son of man shall come in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
KJV

I can understand someone who doesn't speak English very well not understanding what that above verse says in red. But those raised speaking English have no excuse in not knowing it means at Christ's return is when He will sit upon that throne. That just happens to be the throne of David, on earth. That is the throne promised to Jesus.




Wrong again. You ADDED to Scripture, which is definitely not a light thing. It does not say it would be given to "a holy nation" referring to Exodus 19:6 unless you cite the Revelation 1:6 verse about Christ's Church as the kings and priests. And in that case it is definitely... about Christ's Church, and not just Israel only.

Here is what Jesus said...

Matt 21:43
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
KJV

Did you notice that qualifier of which nation, with "bringing forth the fruits thereof"? What kind of nation is it that is to bring forth fruits in The Gospel of Jesus Christ, whom Jesus has made kings and priests??? Answer: the Christian nations under Jesus Christ. It means Christ's Church under the New Covenant.

I never knowingly said Christ is sitting on David's throne now, that is yet future in the kingdom.

 

[Doug]

I didn't misunderstand you. I well know what leaven you are pushing. It's a leaven doctrine of men that began with John Darby in 1830s Britain, his theory of Dispensationalism, and then E.W. Bullinger took the idea further with Hyper-Dispensationalism, which is what you are pushing here. It is the idea that there are two different gospels, one for Israel and another for Gentiles. That is not what God's Word teaches at all though. Those men who started that leaven try and take advantage of every simple word to use as a pivot to falsely point to their doctrine, like with the word 'my' with Paul saying 'my gospel' that I covered in a previous post here.



But it's definitely a mystery to you, because you haven't understood it, which I can tell by your writing that Christ is now sitting on that throne in heaven when He is not, not yet, because David's throne is an EARTHLY throne.

Matt 25:31-32
31 When the Son of man shall come in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
KJV

I can understand someone who doesn't speak English very well not understanding what that above verse says in red. But those raised speaking English have no excuse in not knowing it means at Christ's return is when He will sit upon that throne. That just happens to be the throne of David, on earth. That is the throne promised to Jesus.




Wrong again. You ADDED to Scripture, which is definitely not a light thing. It does not say it would be given to "a holy nation" referring to Exodus 19:6 unless you cite the Revelation 1:6 verse about Christ's Church as the kings and priests. And in that case it is definitely... about Christ's Church, and not just Israel only.

Here is what Jesus said...

Matt 21:43
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
KJV

Did you notice that qualifier of which nation, with "bringing forth the fruits thereof"? What kind of nation is it that is to bring forth fruits in The Gospel of Jesus Christ, whom Jesus has made kings and priests??? Answer: the Christian nations under Jesus Christ. It means Christ's Church under the New Covenant.

I was not adding to scripture I was commenting on the verse and qualifying it by utilizing and providing other scripture.

Israel was to bring forth fruits Matthew 3:8

 

[H. Richard]

You cannot try to isolate those 3 verses from what Apostle Paul was teaching in Romans 4 about Abraham's faith. You left out the next 16th verse which is where Paul made his point...

Rom 4:13-18
13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations; according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
KJV

Paul was simply explained there that the Promise by Faith is what was first given to Abraham, and he believed God, and it was counted to Abraham as righteousness. And that was 430 years before... the law was given. So the law cannot annul the Promise, because that Promise is by Faith, and not by works of the law. Very... simple when you stick to what is actually written.

Gal 3:17-18
17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
KJV

That first part in red is about the Promise by Faith which God first gave Abraham, which had nothing to do with the law given later, even 430 years later. Verse 18 makes it even more plain. Abraham's inheritance is not by the law. It is by his Faith on God's Promise which was given first. And that is the same Promise we have believed through our Lord Jesus Christ. Thus as Paul says in that Galatians 3 chapter, those of Faith are the children of Abraham, and we inherit with faithful Abraham.



Joint heirs with Christ means joint heirs in His Kingdom. Per the end of Gal.3, Christ's Church inherits with Abraham.




Verse 29 is simple that Christ's Church inherits with Abraham according to that Promise by Faith first given him.



All... those who believe on The Father through His Son Jesus Christ are children of God. And we inherit with Christ, and with Abraham what God promised him. There is no separation of the future restored kingdom of Israel on earth and Christ's Church. The Pre-trib Rapture theory is a lie from men's leaven and is not written in God's Word. Christ will gather His Church on the last day of this present world and take us to Jerusalem on earth to reign over all nations. That is where His throne will be established, on earth. And we will reign on the earth as written in Revelation 5:10.

My reply was to bbyrd009. It was not intend to write a book.

 

[Doug]

Does a dispensation reveal anything... or is it God that reveals what a person needs to know? Perhaps God will use such things to reveal things sometimes, but should we try to put Him into a dispensational bottle of any other bottle... simply because God perhaps showed you something good along that route?

You speak of the Bible [KJV or...?] as the preserved "word of God", but I look at it [the Bible] more as the dead but not yet resurrected Jesus. He went to the cross still alive, but then he died. That is what we hold in our hand, ink on paper, named scriptures, but dead. Then Jesus was resurrected... He came back to Life by the power of God. Similarly as we consume his dead flesh, [by reading or hearing the words of scripture] the unquenched Holy Spirit in us will bring that flesh to Life in us and then in the measure that is done we have a measure of the Word of God in us.

"[God] Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life." II Cor 3:6

If and when we have the Word [not dead words] in us, ultimately, how important can dispensations be?


I can only guess as to exactly what you mean by this, "ministry of reconciliation". I suppose you mean God bringing us back to where Adam and Eve were before they partook of the forbidden fruit. Even though Paul was a chosen vessel of God, Paul, himself, and any dead words he wrote still cannot save a single person.

Does a person have to understand what the terms or words, "ministry of reconciliation" and "dispensation" and "gospel", mean in order to move closer to God? Very likely there are some people on planet Earth today who don't know the meaning of those terms who nevertheless are walking closer to God than you or me. Sometimes all of this theological knowledge actual stands a barrier between us and God. Don't you believe that? I know that I do.

As to a ministry, our ministry, what is that? What our ministry is: mine or yours of that of another can be found in ourselves by the Living Word of God in us if we have any measure of it. If we really do, then in what measure are we serving others... for is that not how a man ministers according the scriptures? What was it that Jesus said?

"Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.
If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet." John 13:13-14

Whose feet have we washed lately? Do we suppose that knowing the difference between a dispensation and a gospel will help a person humble himself as Jesus humbled himself? Jesus certainly had more knowledge than any of those around him, but was it that knowledge that led people, his enemies even, to say things such as "... Never man spake like this man." John 7:46 ?

What is a ministry anyway? What is our ministry? A ministry is NOT a study or a way of studying. It should be a way of serving others. Shouldn't it be the way we to wash someone else's feet?

God gave us Paul and Apollos and others to plant and weed and to water, but when it comes down to it... only God gives any real increase. Someone really on God's side all of the time will get to where God wants him to get without regard to which denomination he cleaves to or not; or to which dispensational group he belongs or not.

What did the woman who washed the feet of Jesus with her tears know about gospels or dispensations or denominations? Since she came to know Jesus, what did she need to know of those things?

You said .....I can only guess as to exactly what you mean by this, "ministry of reconciliation".

It is stated in 2 Corinthians 5:19-21

 

[amadeus]

You said .....I can only guess as to exactly what you mean by this, "ministry of reconciliation".

It is stated in 2 Corinthians 5:19-21

Well you certainly seemed to have missed my point...

 

[bbyrd009]

I am a child of God. Made one by the baptism of the Holy Spirit when I placed ALL my belief, faith, trust and confidence in what God (Jesus) did for me on the cross.

then bam do that hr, ok with me

 

[Doug]

Well you certainly seemed to have missed my point...

1 Timothy 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

The last thing I would say is doctrine is significant and a safeguard

Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;