James Was Not Talking about Faith in Jesus Christ for Salvation

[marks]

Jesus wasn't shamed, whipped, crucified, mocked and separated from the Father, just so God could nicely ask ungodly sinners to come out and play Christian.

This is true . . . Jesus died to give us new life.

OSAS is truly playtime Christianity for uncleansed sinners, that think their dirty diapers don't stink as much as 'unbelieving' sinners.

.

Much love!

 

[robert derrick]

Yes !

One may think that it's by their faith that they are saved ? but it's actually not ones own faith ? That Saves, it's the Grace of God that comes to you. I never bought such ? I was given and respond to such, for I know what it is. it's not of me ?

As to the old story of once Saved always Saved. well I hear such tossed around out of control, so that it becomes a joke but I do believe that once one is Truly born again such is Saved, so once Saved one is always Saved is true ! The parable of the Sower comes to mind ? such is a fact ! Faith Grows ! but it has to mature to fend off the weeds that grow to try and strangle your faith.
So why do so many who as the Parable of the sower shows fail, now looking back in the 70's at my Bible study days, I seen such take sprout ! but how many of them now that I know fell along the wayside ? I am not happy about such at all ! And they say to me, you still don't believe all that BS do you ! and I say a Thousand fold, absolutely ! I have 100% faith in Christ Jesus. not a shadow of doubt at all what so ever, come hell or high water. it's because I know him ?
I remember when I had only faith ? because of others had faith, they gave me strength ? but I did not know our Lord and Saviour personally ?
I knew off him before hand, but I had strong faith willing to die for him, but I had some small shadows of doubt ? and it's such as that small shadows that could take hold of one and bring in the rot = a cancer ! and such a one is only a religious ? I have come out from them ? I do not need that ? for I have Christ Jesus ! and he has me, There is nothing more. one can not go back like a dog to it's own vomit. because you know it's a Vomit and one is not a dog.

One who is not of God is a Vomit ? Sick ! remember God Vomited them out of the Land ? because they were not worthy of Him.

One may think that it's by their faith that they are saved ? but it's actually not ones own faith ?

Perfect. That truly is the great error of OSAS: they believe it, and so it must be so, and no Scripture can get in the way of it, without be twisted or rejected altogether.

Because they believe they are saved, so they must be saved.

Hearing sinners are people who think they are saved by their own faith, which more often than not is according to their own vain imagination and wresting of Scripture more to their liking.

The faith we are saved by is not our own faith, but the faith of Jesus, which is the gift given to them that receive His word into the heart to obey Him in all things:

Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Salvation is not the gift. It is not 'gifted', which is Christian baby-talk for unjustified sinners. Salvation is obtained in the end, and is only for them that are obeying Him in all things unto the end.

Them keeping all the commandments of God by the faith of Jesus, beginning with the first great one with all the heart, are being saved and justified with God in this life, and them that continue to maintain doing so and endure to keep the faith of Jesus unto the end shall, obtain eternal salvation and the crown of righteousness.

Blessed are they that keep judgment, and he that doeth righteousness at all times.

Hearers only agree with the word of God, and have only a partial obedience to it.

Doers of the word are only them that do all the word as written, and not only that portion which they like and is convenient to do.

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

No man is justified by doing things according to his own faith, whether good deeds or works of the law. But only them that do the law as written by the whole faith of Jesus are justified with God.

For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Them doing some works of the law are not doers of the law, neither are them doing some of the word, and not obeying all Scripture as written.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

How were you initially saved?

All who are being saved, are being saved the same way: by believing and obeying Jesus first within the heart, that we may be obeying Him with the body.

There is no 'initial' to salvation. The only initial is before salvation, which is to initially hear and agree with the gospel.

Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

The only 'first' to salvation is with cleansing the inside of the heart along with the outside body.

Until faith is recieved to obey God within the heart, the faith remains dead as a hearer that only agrees, but does not obey.

Law Alone Salvationism (Which is what you believe).

Let's back up and find out exactly what each other believes, before declaring what the other believes.

Question:

Do you agree with this: we are initially saved by faith only in the heart, before and apart from being justified by works of the body?

That is what I think you are saying. If not, you can clarify and say it more perfectly.

So far as law-alone stuff, I know I have never wrote that in any way. So if you want me to clarify something I've written, I'd be glad to. Or perhaps you can just ask me.

How do you define the gospel?
Does this gospel include water baptism?
If there is no initial salvation, how does one first get saved? Do you believe you have salvation? If so, what did you do to merit that?

 

[robert derrick]

How do you define the gospel?
Does this gospel include water baptism?
If there is no initial salvation, how does one first get saved? Do you believe you have salvation? If so, what did you do to merit that?

I'll try one last time for a response to my ongoing point: Do we obey the faith of God in our hearts, or only with the body?

For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds; Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

Is this Scripture speaking of obedience to God in our heart?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I'll try one last time for a response to my ongoing point: Do we obey the faith of God in our hearts, or only with the body?

For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds; Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

Is this Scripture speaking of obedience to God in our heart?

It’s always a good practice to read the chapter a little before you quote a verse to get a feel for what a verse is saying. 2 Corinthians 10:4 is in reference to our Sanctification Process and not how we are Initially Saved.

Also, again… obedience can be in reference to either our choice to:

#1. Being Initially Saved by God’s grace by faith (without works), and or:
#2. Following the next step in the Sanctification Process (Which is putting away sin, doing good works, keeping oneself pure from the things of this world, etcetera).​

The same is true with God’s commands. There are Grace Commands, and there are Sanctification Commands.

The issue is how does God define grace (or a belief), vs. works in the Bible.
Again, if you were to carefully re-read Romans 4:3, and Romans 4:9-12 makes it clear that there is a clear difference between…

#1. Belief.
#2. Works (Circumcision).

Abraham was said to have righteousness accounted to him when he was not yet circumcised (Works) and Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him as righteousness (without works). That’s the whole point of that chapter (That you cannot in good conscience believe).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

@robert derrick

You also did not answer my questions.

How do you define the gospel?
Does this gospel include water baptism?
If there is no initial salvation, how does one first get saved? Do you believe you have salvation? If so, what did you do to merit that?

 

[robert derrick]

@robert derrick

You also did not answer my questions.

How do you define the gospel?
Does this gospel include water baptism?
If there is no initial salvation, how does one first get saved? Do you believe you have salvation? If so, what did you do to merit that?

I did answer you on water baptism. I will be glad to do so again; however, I am still waiting for an answer of the main point I made with you in the beginning.

Do we obey God in the heart or not? Do we obey Him by bringing all our thoughts into obedience to Him?

If you can't answer yes or no, then explain why. I say it is an obvious yes.

If I missed your answer, then I apologize, so would you do so again.

I will be more than glad to answer all your questions, as well as respond to all your points.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I did answer you on water baptism. I will be glad to do so again; however, there comes a point where I no longer answer the questions of others, until they do so of mine. I'm not a sounding board only. I believe in fair exchange.

I made one main point from my first post with you, which you apparently don't want to answer.

Do we obey God in the heart or not? Do we obey Him by bringing all our thoughts into obedience to Him?

I am not sure the point in answering your questions has to do with the framework of your point you are trying to make. “Yes,” the Bible teaches that we can obey from the heart and “Yes,” the Bible does teach in the Sanctification Process that we can bring our thoughts in obedience to Him.

This does not in any way prove that there is no Initial Salvation or there is no being saved by God’s grace through faith without works (Initially).
The Bible still teaches that in Romans 4:3, and Romans 4:9-12 (Which you don’t seem to understand or accept).

You are confused in regards to time of the process of salvation. There are two aspects of salvation clearly taught in Scripture. If this was not the case, then Paul and James would be teaching two different doctrines on salvation that would be contrary to each other. But the issue of course is… time. Paul is referring to Initial and Foundational Salvation (in being saved by God’s grace without works), and James is referring to the Next Step in our Salvation with the Sanctification Process (Which does include works, holy living etcetera).

 

[robert derrick]

I am not sure the point in answering your questions has to do with the framework of your point you are trying to make. “Yes,” the Bible teaches that we can obey from the heart and “Yes,” the Bible does teach in the Sanctification Process that we can bring our thoughts in obedience to Him.

This does not in any way prove that there is no Initial Salvation or there is no being saved by God’s grace through faith without works (Initially).
The Bible still teaches that in Romans 4:3, and Romans 4:9-12 (Which you don’t seem to understand or accept).

You are confused in regards to time of the process of salvation. There are two aspects of salvation clearly taught in Scripture. If this was not the case, then Paul and James would be teaching two different doctrines on salvation that would be contrary to each other. But the issue of course is… time. Paul is referring to Initial and Foundational Salvation (in being saved by God’s grace without works), and James is referring to the Next Step in our Salvation with the Sanctification Process (Which does include works, holy living etcetera).

“Yes,” the Bible does teach in the Sanctification Process that we can bring our thoughts in obedience to Him.

Thank you. We agree that obedience to God does not begin with the body, but with the heart and in the mind, to purify and keep our souls clean from the lust of the world.

But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

'Initial obedience' is important to your teaching of 'initial' salvation, especially with a temporal time difference between the two.

This does not in any way prove that there is no Initial Salvation or there is no being saved by God’s grace through faith without works (Initially). The Bible still teaches that in Romans 4:3, and Romans 4:9-12 (Which you don’t seem to understand or accept).

Actually, I did suggest earlier in a post there could be an agreement between us.

However, I do reject your effort to separate obedience from works. That to me is semantic, not real. Natural sense is that obeying is doing, which is a deed and a work done.

And especially with God, since all good works we do that are justified with Him, are by obedience to Him, beginning with the first great commandment to love Him with all the heart, which is obeyed by purifying the heart of lust.

I say these are the first works of our first love that Jesus speaks of in Rev 2:4-5.

There is no difference between obeying and doing good for His name's sake.

All obedience to the faith of God are works of His righteousness we do with a pure heart: these are the works we are justified by beginning within the heart:

But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

 

[robert derrick]

I am not sure the point in answering your questions has to do with the framework of your point you are trying to make. “Yes,” the Bible teaches that we can obey from the heart and “Yes,” the Bible does teach in the Sanctification Process that we can bring our thoughts in obedience to Him.

This does not in any way prove that there is no Initial Salvation or there is no being saved by God’s grace through faith without works (Initially).
The Bible still teaches that in Romans 4:3, and Romans 4:9-12 (Which you don’t seem to understand or accept).

You are confused in regards to time of the process of salvation. There are two aspects of salvation clearly taught in Scripture. If this was not the case, then Paul and James would be teaching two different doctrines on salvation that would be contrary to each other. But the issue of course is… time. Paul is referring to Initial and Foundational Salvation (in being saved by God’s grace without works), and James is referring to the Next Step in our Salvation with the Sanctification Process (Which does include works, holy living etcetera).

I am not sure the point in answering your questions has to do with the framework of your point you are trying to make.

It is important to your teaching in two ways: 'Initial' salvation, which I prefer calling First being saved, and a temporal 'timeline' between first being saved by faith and first being justified by works.

1. The 'timeline' is now between believing and obeying within the heart, not between believing within the heart and obeying with the body.

2. Also, there is a problem to me with separating being first saved by faith and being first justified by works, which now is within the heart.

Such a 'timeline' separation says to me, that one can be saved by God apart from being justified with God: We are first saved by faith without being justified by works.

Your teaching, therefore, says we can be saved without being justified.

If that is true, then salvation by God stands alone, at least in the beginning, and needs no justification with God.

OSAS teaches both salvation and justification are the same, and neither are by works at all, so that they stand alone and always independent of the heart and life in this world.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

“Yes,” the Bible does teach in the Sanctification Process that we can bring our thoughts in obedience to Him.

Thank you. We agree that obedience to God does not begin with the body, but with the heart and in the mind, to purify and keep our souls clean from the lust of the world.

But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

'Initial obedience' is important to your teaching of 'initial' salvation, especially with a temporal time difference between the two.

This does not in any way prove that there is no Initial Salvation or there is no being saved by God’s grace through faith without works (Initially). The Bible still teaches that in Romans 4:3, and Romans 4:9-12 (Which you don’t seem to understand or accept).

Actually, I did suggest earlier in a post there could be an agreement between us.

However, I do reject your effort to separate obedience from works. That to me is semantic, not real. Natural sense is that obeying is doing, which is a deed and a work done.

And especially with God, since all good works we do that are justified with Him, are by obedience to Him, beginning with the first great commandment to love Him with all the heart, which is obeyed by purifying the heart of lust.

I say these are the first works of our first love that Jesus speaks of in Rev 2:4-5.

There is no difference between obeying and doing good for His name's sake.

All obedience to the faith of God are works of His righteousness we do with a pure heart: these are the works we are justified by beginning within the heart:

But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

But Romans 10:16 makes it clear that obeying can be in reference to believing.

“But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?” (Romans 10:16).

The context:

“How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed?” (Romans 10:14).

Again, belief is not works because we read clearly in Romans 4 the distinction between the two.
It also says that there is a belief without works that can account to us for righteousness.

Romans 4:1-6
“What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,”

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I am not sure the point in answering your questions has to do with the framework of your point you are trying to make.

It is important to your teaching in two ways: 'Initial' salvation, which I prefer calling First being saved, and a temporal 'timeline' between first being saved by faith and first being justified by works.

1. The 'timeline' is now between believing and obeying within the heart, not between believing within the heart and obeying with the body.

2. Also, there is a problem to me with separating being first saved by faith and being first justified by works, which now is within the heart.

Such a 'timeline' separation says to me, that one can be saved by God apart from being justified with God: We are first saved by faith without being justified by works.

Your teaching, therefore, says we can be saved without being justified.

Romans 3:28 says,
“Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.”

Context mentions works in this.

“Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.” (Romans 3:27).

It says we are justified by faith (belief) in Romans 3:28, and not by works because verse 27 (Romans 3:27) makes it clear that works is not included in the law of faith (belief).

OSAS teaches both salvation and justification are the same, and neither are by works at all, so that they stand alone and always independent of the heart and life in this world.

But I don’t believe in OSAS and neither do I believe in the OSAS view of justification (Whereby it’s only a Perpetual belief alone that saves). One is justified by faith (without works) according to Romans 3:28 when they first come to God, and one is later justified by works of faith (i.e. Later after they are saved by God’s grace whereby it would not remain as being faith alone) (See: James 2:24).

 

[robert derrick]

But Romans 10:16 makes it clear that obeying can be in reference to believing.

“But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?” (Romans 10:16).

The context:

“How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed?” (Romans 10:14).

Again, belief is not works because we read clearly in Romans 4 the distinction between the two.
It also says that there is a belief without works that can account to us for righteousness.

Romans 4:1-6
“What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,”

But Romans 10:16 makes it clear that obeying can be in reference to believing.

True, and so even as faith without works is dead, being alone, so is believing without obeying.

Faith and believing are the same, even as works and obeying. There is no distinction between obeying the faith and doing works of faith, other than semantics necessary to teach a personal doctrine.

 

[robert derrick]

Romans 3:28 says,
“Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.”

Context mentions works in this.

“Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.” (Romans 3:27).

It says we are justified by faith (belief) in Romans 3:28, and not by works because verse 27 (Romans 3:27) makes it clear that works is not included in the law of faith (belief).



But I don’t believe in OSAS and neither do I believe in the OSAS view of justification (Whereby it’s only a Perpetual belief alone that saves). One is justified by faith (without works) according to Romans 3:28 when they first come to God, and one is later justified by works of faith (i.e. Later on in their life after they are saved by God’s grace whereby it would not remain as being faith alone) (See: James 2:24).

One is justified by faith (without works) according to Romans 3:28 when they first come to God, and one is later justified by works of faith. And one is later justified by works of faith.

We agree. Works of our own righteousness have nothing to do with us being saved nor justified with God.

And works of faith is by obedience to the faith. Obedience and works are the same in definition.We cannot obey without doing works, and we cannot do works without obeying.

Works of man's own doing is excluded, and obeying God's commandment begins in the heart with the work of purifying our hearts, in order to love Him with a whole heart.

i.e. Later on in their life after they are saved by God’s grace whereby it would not remain as being faith alone

This is where we disagree. How much 'later on in life' while being saved, does it take to be justified with God?

As I have shown, the 'temporal' time difference is purely carnal, and not Scriptural. Any time difference between believing and obeying is within the heart, not between faith shown with the body.

Unless you are willing to say that we can be saved at any point, for any amount of time, without also being justified of God, then your 2 aspects theory doesn't hold.

And the problem with the first aspect is that is exactly what OSAS teaches, in order to have salvation by faith alone before and permanently apart from works that justify us.

Are you saying we can be saved by God, while not being justified with Him, until later on in life?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

But Romans 10:16 makes it clear that obeying can be in reference to believing.

True, and so even as faith without works is dead, being alone, so is believing without obeying.

Again, you are confused on what James 2:24 says. James is not talking about Initial Salvation but he is referring to believers who are living out their faith. James is saying that if your faith progresses in living it out here on this planet (Unlike the thief on the cross), then you will have works of faith and obedience in the Sanctification Process. One can obey in believing as I already demonstrated according to Romans 10:14, and Romans 10:16 (When read together).

Faith and believing are the same, even as works and obeying.

Faith has two sides to it. Faith starts off as a belief alone but it does not remain that way. Faith manifests itself with works of faith (Although James and others do sometimes distinguish between faith vs. works). But obeying can be a belief alone. John 1:12-13 says that to believe in the name of Jesus equates with being given power to become sons of God and born again.

There is no distinction between obeying the faith and doing works of faith, other than semantics necessary to teach a personal doctrine.

There are two different ways you can obey the faith. We can obey the faith in our Initial Salvation in being saved by God’s grace without works by seeking forgiveness with the Lord Jesus Christ and in believing the gospel message in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, and we can obey the faith afterwards by loving God and others by our actions as shown in the New Testament. So no. What you say is not true.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

One is justified by faith (without works) according to Romans 3:28 when they first come to God, and one is later justified by works of faith. And one is later justified by works of faith.

We agree. Works of our own righteousness have nothing to do with us being saved nor justified with God.

And works of faith is by obedience to the faith. Obedience and works are the same in definition.We cannot obey without doing works, and we cannot do works without obeying.

Works of man's own doing is excluded, and obeying God's commandment begins in the heart with the work of purifying our hearts, in order to love Him with a whole heart.

You appear to be just repeating yourself without offering any substantial Scripture to back up your claims. You also did not explain verses like Romans 4:3, and Romans 4:9-12.

i.e. Later on in their life after they are saved by God’s grace whereby it would not remain as being faith alone

This is where we disagree. How much 'later on in life' while being saved, does it take to be justified with God?

My apologies. I worded that poorly. My words were not conveying what I actually believe. So I re-edited that statement. I meant to say that soon after they are saved by God’s grace, they will then at some point enter the Sanctification Process whereby they must live holy by putting away sin, doing good works, etcetera. When do they enter? Well, a believer cannot justify sin and God will guide the believer to live a holy life. A believer cannot justify sin and still be saved.

As I have shown, the 'temporal' time difference is purely carnal, and not Scriptural. Any time difference between believing and obeying is within the heart, not between faith shown with the body.

Unless you are willing to say that we can be saved at any point, for any amount of time, without also being justified of God, then your 2 aspects theory doesn't hold.

And the problem with the first aspect is that is exactly what OSAS teaches, in order to have salvation by faith alone before and permanently apart from works that justify us.

Are you saying we can be saved by God, while not being justified with Him, until later on in life?

The proof is that you did not know all of God’s commands in the New Testament overnight. There are approximately 400 some commands in the New Testament. I know. I have carefully went through the New Testament to find them all (listing them in a Google Document). Granted, this list (based on the KJB) is ever evolving to make sure it is accurate. So if this is the case, and you are not perfectly obeying all of these 400 some commands in the New Testament, then you are doomed if there is no grace for you to learn them so as to obey them and or be given strength by God to do all of them.

2 Timothy 2:15 says for you to study to show yourself approved unto God. So it takes time to know all about God’s commands and it takes time to apply them to our lives. Most believers do not go from zero to hero overnight.

 

[robert derrick]

You appear to be just repeating yourself without offering any substantial Scripture to back up your claims. You also did not explain verses like Romans 4:3, and Romans 4:9-12.



My apologies. I worded that poorly. My words were not conveying what I actually believe. So I re-edited that statement. I meant to say that soon after they are saved by God’s grace, they will then at some point enter the Sanctification Process whereby they must live holy by putting away sin, doing good works, etcetera. When do they enter? Well, a believer cannot justify sin and God will guide the believer to live a holy life. A believer cannot justify sin and still be saved.



The proof is that you did not know all of God’s commands in the New Testament overnight. There are approximately 400 some commands in the New Testament. I know. I have carefully went through the New Testament to find them all (listing them in a Google Document). Granted, this list (based on the KJB) is ever evolving to make sure it is accurate. So if this is the case, and you are not perfectly obeying all of these 400 some commands in the New Testament, then you are doomed if there is no grace for you to learn them so as to obey them and or be given strength by God to do all of them.

2 Timothy 2:15 says for you to study to show yourself approved unto God. So it takes time to know all about God’s commands and it takes time to apply them to our lives. Most believers do not go from zero to hero overnight.

I meant to say that soon after they are saved by God’s grace, they will then at some point enter the Sanctification Process whereby they must live holy by putting away sin, doing good works, etcetera.

You are bypassing obedience within the heart first, before obedience with the body.

You appear to be just repeating yourself without offering any substantial Scripture to back up your claims.

Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Sanctification begins within the heart.

If we seek to be sanctified outwardly, without first being sanctified within, then we are become as the Pharisees that Paul was rebuking for works of their own righteousness.

My claim is that no man can do the righteousness of God outwardly, and be justified of God, without first doing His righteousness inwardly, which is where we are first justified with God:

Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

Good works being with the good work of purifying the heart.

And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.

We maintain good works by maintaining a pure heart.

 

[robert derrick]

You appear to be just repeating yourself without offering any substantial Scripture to back up your claims. You also did not explain verses like Romans 4:3, and Romans 4:9-12.



My apologies. I worded that poorly. My words were not conveying what I actually believe. So I re-edited that statement. I meant to say that soon after they are saved by God’s grace, they will then at some point enter the Sanctification Process whereby they must live holy by putting away sin, doing good works, etcetera. When do they enter? Well, a believer cannot justify sin and God will guide the believer to live a holy life. A believer cannot justify sin and still be saved.



The proof is that you did not know all of God’s commands in the New Testament overnight. There are approximately 400 some commands in the New Testament. I know. I have carefully went through the New Testament to find them all (listing them in a Google Document). Granted, this list (based on the KJB) is ever evolving to make sure it is accurate. So if this is the case, and you are not perfectly obeying all of these 400 some commands in the New Testament, then you are doomed if there is no grace for you to learn them so as to obey them and or be given strength by God to do all of them.

2 Timothy 2:15 says for you to study to show yourself approved unto God. So it takes time to know all about God’s commands and it takes time to apply them to our lives. Most believers do not go from zero to hero overnight.

You also did not explain verses like Romans 4:3, and Romans 4:9-12.

I was waiting for you to respond to my point about inward obedience within the heart being necessary before outward obedience with the body.

You sort of did, so I will be glad to show you how believing and obeying in the heart are always together in the Scriptures you speak of: wherever we read of God acknowledging faith and righteousness, it is by obeying the faith within the heart first.

For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

What God calls believing is two things: it is within the heart, and it is accompanied with fighting against unbelieving thoughts from the devil within the heart.

Obedience to the faith within the heart is rejecting any and all thoughts of unbelief and disobedience sent from the devil.

Before Abraham chased away the fowls of the air from his sacrifice on the ground, he did so within the heart first, which is what God saw within His heart, and so He counted it as righteousness to Abraham.

There is no righteousness in believing only, which is agreeing only. Just believing God is right is nothing to God, but only obeying to do right in His name is justified with God, and that obedience begins with maintaining right thoughts while rejecting all others.

Works of faith begin by obeying the faith within the heart, that we may also obey the faith bodily in deed and in truth with a pure heart.

Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised:

And that circumcision was commanded to be of the heart in Scripture, to obey God within the heart to be purified of lust of the world, and so circumcising the foreskin of the heart.

Abraham was circumcising his heart from unbelief and thoughts of disobedience, before being circumcised outwardly, which was only a seal and sign of that circumcision of his heart.

So it is today for all his children who likewise circumcise our hearts as he, which is the circumcision of Christ we do by His Spirit, which is called being sealed by the Spirit.

Paul is showing in Scripture how faith and circumcision are to be spiritual in the heart first, which is obeying God to purify our hearts of lust of the world.

That he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

When we believe and obey within the heart as Abraham did, then we also receive the righteousness of God within the heart as He did.

And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

Abraham walked in the steps of faith, which was obedience to the faith, because he first obeyed the faith within his heart to cast down every vain imagination, and bring all his thoughts unto the obedience of Christ who appeared unto him.

First we circumcise our hearts by cutting off all lust for sin of the devil, and then we circumcise our lives outwardly with a pure heart of circumcision.

Sanctification of the Spirit is circumcision of the heart first, followed by sanctifying circumcision of the life.

Cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Seeking to sanctify outwardly, before sanctifying inwardly is filthy rags to God, even as seeking to obey the second great commandment without first obeying the first great commandment.

For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

It is through the Spirit by the power of God to becomes sons of God: to become the righteousness of God by faith within the heart first, that we may be so outwardly as well.

The righteousness of faith is first making and keeping a pure heart of faith, being made free from the spirit of sin and death, by the Spirit of life, that we may also walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh.

We walk with Christ first in the heart by obeying Him to purify the heart by the righteousness of faith in Him.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You also did not explain verses like Romans 4:3, and Romans 4:9-12.

I was waiting for you to respond to my point about inward obedience within the heart being necessary before outward obedience with the body.

You sort of did, so I will be glad to show you how believing and obeying in the heart are always together in the Scriptures you speak of: wherever we read of God acknowledging faith and righteousness, it is by obeying the faith within the heart first.

For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

What God calls believing is two things: it is within the heart, and it is accompanied with fighting against unbelieving thoughts from the devil within the heart.

Obedience to the faith within the heart is rejecting any and all thoughts of unbelief and disobedience sent from the devil.

Before Abraham chased away the fowls of the air from his sacrifice on the ground, he did so within the heart first, which is what God saw within His heart, and so He counted it as righteousness to Abraham.

There is no righteousness in believing only, which is agreeing only. Just believing God is right is nothing to God, but only obeying to do right in His name is justified with God, and that obedience begins with maintaining right thoughts while rejecting all others.

Works of faith begin by obeying the faith within the heart, that we may also obey the faith bodily in deed and in truth with a pure heart.

Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised:

And that circumcision was commanded to be of the heart in Scripture, to obey God within the heart to be purified of lust of the world, and so circumcising the foreskin of the heart.

Abraham was circumcising his heart from unbelief and thoughts of disobedience, before being circumcised outwardly, which was only a seal and sign of that circumcision of his heart.

So it is today for all his children who likewise circumcise our hearts as he, which is the circumcision of Christ we do by His Spirit, which is called being sealed by the Spirit.

Paul is showing in Scripture how faith and circumcision are to be spiritual in the heart first, which is obeying God to purify our hearts of lust of the world.

That he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

When we believe and obey within the heart as Abraham did, then we also receive the righteousness of God within the heart as He did.

And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

Abraham walked in the steps of faith, which was obedience to the faith, because he first obeyed the faith within his heart to cast down every vain imagination, and bring all his thoughts unto the obedience of Christ who appeared unto him.

First we circumcise our hearts by cutting off all lust for sin of the devil, and then we circumcise our lives outwardly with a pure heart of circumcision.

Sanctification of the Spirit is circumcision of the heart first, followed by sanctifying circumcision of the life.

Cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Seeking to sanctify outwardly, before sanctifying inwardly is filthy rags to God, even as seeking to obey the second great commandment without first obeying the first great commandment.

For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

It is through the Spirit by the power of God to becomes sons of God: to become the righteousness of God by faith within the heart first, that we may be so outwardly as well.

The righteousness of faith is first making and keeping a pure heart of faith, being made free from the spirit of sin and death, by the Spirit of life, that we may also walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh.

We walk with Christ first in the heart by obeying Him to purify the heart by the righteousness of faith in Him.

I already explained to you that one type of obedience is believing according to Romans 10:14, and Romans 10:16.

Also, if you are not going to explain Romans 4:3, and Romans 4:9-12, we are done with this discussion, my friend. There needs to be moment where there needs to be a give and take between a conversation and it all seems one sided at this point.

I would like for you to give a word for word commentary on Romans 4:1-12 when you have the time. Do it a few verses at a time. There is no time restraints here. So take as long as you need whether it be a couple of hours, days, or weeks. Just provide a commentary in your own words on what Romans 4:1-12 says. If you are not interested in doing that, I think it is best we agree to disagree and move on because it seems like we are simply going in circles here.

If you could also give a commentary on Ephesians 2:8-9, and Romans 11:6, that would be great, too.

 

[robert derrick]

I already explained to you that one type of obedience is believing according to Romans 10:14, and Romans 10:16.

Also, if you are not going to explain Romans 4:3, and Romans 4:9-12, we are done with this discussion, my friend. There needs to be moment where there needs to be a give and take between a conversation and it all seems one sided at this point.

I would like for you to give a word for word commentary on Romans 4:1-12 when you have the time. Do it a few verses at a time. There is no time restraints here. So take as long as you need whether it be a couple of hours, days, or weeks. Just provide a commentary in your own words on what Romans 4:1-12 says. If you are not interested in doing that, I think it is best we agree to disagree and move on because it seems like we are simply going in circles here.

If you could also give a commentary on Ephesians 2:8-9, and Romans 11:6, that would be great, too.

Also, if you are not going to explain Romans 4:3, and Romans 4:9-12, we are done with this discussion, my friend.

You just replied to the thread where I did. ??

In any case, I will be glad to do as you ask with other Scriptures, as well as other points you have made. Vers by verse and point by point.

Your unwillingness to acknowledge the first works of obedience, that begin with purifying the heart, is baffling.

Are you seeking to do the righteousness of God outwardly, without first doing so within the heart?

Is your heart still not pure from lust of the world and flesh? Are you seeking to love God with a whole unclean heart?