Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated

[TahitiRun]

When it says that every knee shall bow and tongue confess it is understood that this applies to everyone that exists at the time. Those who are thrown into the lake of fire will do neither.

The "lake of fire" is really an allegory having reference to our flesh (the carnal/natural/old man), which is the carnal/fleshly nature of the body. Our body (together with it's fleshly nature) is sown in corruption, dishonor and weakness. This "natural body" of ours at death, returns to the earth as dust (Ecc 12:7).

Ecc 12:7 And the dust returneth to the earth as it was, And the spirit returneth to God who gave it.

1Co 15:42 So also is the rising again of the dead: it is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption;
1Co 15:43 it is sown in dishonour, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
1Co 15:44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body; there is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body;

It's the "body of this death" that Paul references in Rom 7:24. It's that "death" that the soul (body + spirit) will have been delivered and purged from through the righteous fires of judgment and mercy. We need to remember that God is a consuming fire for all, not just unbelievers. For judgment begins at the household of God.

The "furnace of fire" that Jesus speaks of in His parables is where Christ Himself is the refiner of the soul, consuming and purging us of any remaining carnality (dross) so that our heavenly body to be will be raised in in-corruption, with glory and power as a spiritual body. We all were created in and for Christ (Col 1:16). And this includes all souls, not just believers or those of the household of faith.

Concerning the "lake of fire": It's not an "eternal" state of being for the soul, but rather a final state of the "flesh". The flesh that works iniquity and unrighteousness, the "body of this death" that Paul spoke of. It's an unchanging or perpetual "age" and state (without respect to time, longevity, or other means of human measurement), where victory over death (the flesh) is achieved. It's an age that brings with it the final end to death (1Co 15:26), and Christ does this for all souls, believers and unbelievers alike, so that God will be the all in all (1Co 15:28).

1Co 15:26 the last enemy is done away—death;
1Co 15:27 for all things He did put under his feet, and, when one may say that all things have been subjected, it is evident that He is excepted who did subject the all things to him,
1Co 15:28 and when the all things may be subjected to him, then the Son also himself shall be subject to Him, who did subject to him the all things, that God may be the all in all.

And when He does so, all will bend the knee and confess that Christ is Lord to the glory of God.

 

[brightfame52]

this is wrong

Rom 9 - 11 is about Isreal. Did God make a mistake in chosing the nation who rejected and crucified him

Its still about salvation. Paul was answering the seemingly idea that God has been unfaithful in saving Israel. Then He explains thats not it at all, for all are not Israel that are of Israel Rom 9:6

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

So the whole context is about salvation in Christ.

Why you think Paul wrote in the same context Rom 10:8-10

8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

And its speaking of individual Salvation and not national salvation.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Its still about salvation. Paul was answering the seemingly idea that God has been unfaithful in saving Israel. Then He explains thats not it at all, for all are not Israel that are of Israel Rom 9:6

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

So the whole context is about salvation in Christ.

Why you think Paul wrote in the same context Rom 10:8-10

8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

And its speaking of individual Salvation and not national salvation.

No it is not about salvation.

It is about Gods choosing of Israel. The whole concept is that.

Romans 9: 6 is just one argument to support that truth.

 

[CadyandZoe]

The "lake of fire" is an allegory with reference to our flesh (the carnal/natural/old man), the carnal nature of the body. Our body that is sown in corruption, dishonor and weakness, called the natural body at death, returns to the earth, as dust (Ecc 12:7).

I don't agree. Not everyone is put into the lake of Fire.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Even the father of Calvinism John Calvin says on John 3.16

EVERYONE WITHOUT EXCEPTION

Now deal with this

Why should I car what John Calvin said? He is wrong.

 

[CadyandZoe]

No it is not about salvation.

It is about Gods choosing of Israel. The whole concept is that.

Romans 9: 6 is just one argument to support that truth.

I disagree. Paul says that the "adoption as sons" (salvation) belongs to his kinsmen. Paul explains why God's promise to give eternal life to Jacob doesn't necessarily include all of Jacob's children. Romans 9-11 is definitely a salvation issue.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Why should I car what John Calvin said? He is wrong.

yeah, and you are right?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I disagree. Paul says that the "adoption as sons" (salvation) belongs to his kinsmen. Paul explains why God's promise to give eternal life to Jacob doesn't necessarily include all of Jacob's children. Romans 9-11 is definitely a salvation issue.

But that is not what romans 9-11 is about.

He uses salvation as context in a few verses (actually he uses part of the abrahamic covenant in which there is no jew or gentile) but that is not context of the whole passage,.

When you make it that way, you take romans 9 out of context and misinterpret the main passage and make paul say things he never said,

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

But that is not what romans 9-11 is about.

He uses salvation as context in a few verses (actually he uses part of the abrahamic covenant in which there is no jew or gentile) but that is not context of the whole passage,.

When you make it that way, you take romans 9 out of context and misinterpret the main passage and make paul say things he never said,

typical Calvinists TWISTING of the Bible for their NONSENSE!

 

[brightfame52]

No it is not about salvation.

It is about Gods choosing of Israel. The whole concept is that.

Romans 9: 6 is just one argument to support that truth.

Yes it is about salvation.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Yes it is about salvation.

 

[CadyandZoe]

yeah, and you are right?

Yes, I am right. And I told you why. That's all I can do.

 

[CadyandZoe]

But that is not what romans 9-11 is about.

He uses salvation as context in a few verses (actually he uses part of the abrahamic covenant in which there is no jew or gentile) but that is not context of the whole passage,.

When you make it that way, you take romans 9 out of context and misinterpret the main passage and make paul say things he never said,

Show me how. I already explained my view earlier in this tread, giving a complete explanation.

 

[CadyandZoe]

typical Calvinists TWISTING of the Bible for their NONSENSE!

Show me why you think my interpretation of Romans 9 isn't what Paul meant to say. Try this. Try following his argument from step one and see where he ends up.

I'll help you.

Romans 9:3-5
3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises, 5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

to whom belongs the adoption as sons . .
Paul has employed the Roman custom of Adoption as an illustration of our salvation. In Ephesians, for example, he argues that the elect of God inherit eternal life, referring to that inheritance as "the adoption as sons", which refers to the Roman practice of "adoption" whereby a man might bequeath his belongings to a young man, not his natural born son, in order to support and sponsor the young man. In like manner, God has bequeathed eternal life to the elect, giving them the Holy Spirit as a down payment.

He says something similar in Romans chapter 8.

Romans 8:14-17
14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

The children of God are being led by the Spirit of God. They all have received a spirit of "adoption as sons", heirs of God and fellow heirs with Jesus Christ. In chapter 9, he posits that this very same adoption belongs to his kinsmen of the flesh. Let that sink in a minute. It BELONGS to them by birthright. Yes, he is willing to grant the reader that receiving the spirit belongs to his kinsmen. It pertains to THEM; it was promised to THEM.

So then, did the promise of God fail or not? That's the question.

Do you follow?

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Show me why you think my interpretation of Romans 9 isn't what Paul meant to say. Try this. Try following his argument from step one and see where he ends up.

I'll help you.

Romans 9:3-5
3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises, 5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

to whom belongs the adoption as sons . .
Paul has employed the Roman custom of Adoption as an illustration of our salvation. In Ephesians, for example, he argues that the elect of God inherit eternal life, referring to that inheritance as "the adoption as sons", which refers to the Roman practice of "adoption" whereby a man might bequeath his belongings to a young man, not his natural born son, in order to support and sponsor the young man. In like manner, God has bequeathed eternal life to the elect, giving them the Holy Spirit as a down payment.

He says something similar in Romans chapter 8.

Romans 8:14-17
14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

The children of God are being led by the Spirit of God. They all have received a spirit of "adoption as sons", heirs of God and fellow heirs with Jesus Christ. In chapter 9, he posits that this very same adoption belongs to his kinsmen of the flesh. Let that sink in a minute. It BELONGS to them by birthright. Yes, he is willing to grant the reader that receiving the spirit belongs to his kinsmen. It pertains to THEM; it was promised to THEM.

So then, did the promise of God fail or not? That's the question.

Do you follow?

As I have said many times, John 3:16-18 shows beyond any doubt that election to salvation cannot be Biblical

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Yes it is about salvation.

Not all of chapter 9 - 11 is my friend.

If you take it as that is context. You will never understand why Paul took a time out in his letter to address a major issue which was occuring in rome at the time.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Show me how. I already explained my view earlier in this tread, giving a complete explanation.

Romans 9 - 11 is paul answering. Question he posed in vs 6. Did God make a mistake. A mistake at what?

Chosing Israel.

He systematically answers every argument in refusal to what the jews were saying about themselves. And about what the OT stated would happen.

He spoke of how Israel would sin,

He spoke of how the gentiles would be given the word also

He spoke of how even the gentiles would boast of how great they were. And how he wanted them to be careful. That in the end. All the promises God made to israel will be fulfilled. Because his gifts are irrevocable

 

[Eternally Grateful]

As I have said many times, John 3:16-18 shows beyond any doubt that election to salvation cannot be Biblical

It is biblical

Just not in the way fatalism says it happens.

 

[Nancy]

the OP is very clear, that God LOVES the entire human race of sinners. The passage in Romans 9 that the Calvinists try to force to show that God hates the non-elect, is complete rubbish, and against what the Bible says

Amen, God did not "hate" Esau. He is LOVE! He only "preferred Jacob" over Esau. He hated "Edom" the "Nation". That came from Esau's descendant's.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

It is biblical

Just not in the way fatalism says it happens.

Show from the passage in John that election to salvation is Biblical