Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated
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The language of: "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated" (Rom 9:13) is allegorical and spiritual. It's speaking of spirit (Jacob) vs. flesh (Esau). And it's allegory is true for all of us. The same can be said regarding Cain (flesh) vs. Abel (spirit), Ishmael (flesh) vs. Isaac (spirit), sheep vs. goat, wheat vs tares, etc. We all are both.
The comparison contrasts the two elements of the soul. Those two elements being flesh and spirit. The two elements of the soul are at constant enmity with each other, lusting against one another, causing us to be double minded (Gk:διψυχος, ie: two-souled) and unstable:
Gal 5:17 for the flesh doth desire contrary to the spirit, and the spirit contrary to the flesh, and these are opposed one to another, that the things that ye may will—these ye may not do;
Jas 1:8 a two-souled man is unstable in all his ways.
The two elements of the soul, flesh and spirit, are also represented allegorically in Christ's parables as nations (or kingdoms) of the soul (Mat. 25:32), to be separated as "sheep" vs "goats" in judgment and judged accordingly.
In Rom 9:13, the context of Jacob vs Esau is regarding our election in Christ. Our spirit is elect in Christ and our flesh is reprobate, rejected as such and crucified with Christ.
That is what Paul was speaking of, but doing so using spiritual language.
Yes it is extremely unfortunate that Calvin knew the truth but failed to believe it. Just compare some of his commentaries with his Institutes. But that will make no difference to you since you love Calvinistic nonsense instead of God's truth.
How many "Calvinists" well quote Calvin's own words, on John 3:16, for example?
“That whosoever believeth on him may not perish. It is a remarkable commendation of faith, that it frees us from everlasting destruction. For he intended expressly to state that, though we appear to have been born to death, undoubted deliverance is offered to us by the faith of Christ; and, therefore, that we ought not to fear death, which otherwise hangs over us. And he has employed the universal term whosoever, both to invite all indiscriminately to partake of life, and to cut off every excuse from unbelievers. Such is also the import of the term World, which he formerly used; for though nothing will be found in the world that is worthy of the favor of God, yet he shows himself to be reconciled to the whole world, when he invites all men without exception to the faith of Christ, which is nothing else than an entrance into life.”
Or, John 1:29?
“Who taketh away the sin of the world. He uses the word sin in the singular number, for any kind of iniquity; as if he had said, that every kind of unrighteousness which alienates men from God is taken away by Christ. And when he says, the sin Of The World, he extends this favor indiscriminately to the whole human race; that the Jews might not think that he had been sent to them alone. But hence we infer that the whole world is involved in the same condemnation; and that as all men without exception are guilty of unrighteousness before God, they need to be reconciled to him. John the Baptist, therefore, by speaking generally of the sin of the world, intended to impress upon us the conviction of our own misery, and to exhort us to seek the remedy. Now our duty is, to embrace the benefit which is offered to all, that each of us may be convinced that there is nothing to hinder him from obtaining reconciliation in Christ, provided that he comes to him by the guidance of faith.”
Or Romans 5:18?
“He makes this favor common to all, because it is propounded to all, and not because it is in reality extended to all; for though Christ suffered for the sins of the whole world, and is offered through God's benignity indiscriminately to all, yet all do not receive him”
Or Mark 14:24?
“Which is shed for many. By the word many he means not a part of the world only, but the whole human race”
They call themselves "Calvinists", and "Five Point Calvinists", which includes "Limited Atonement", and pretend that their hero, John Calvin actually believed in TULIP! Calvin's own words show them to be FALSE!
While Calvin's commentaries presented Bible truth, he turned 180 degrees in his Institutes and perverted the Gospel. So if ever there was a double-minded person, it was John Calvin. And what is in his Institutes takes precedence over his actual commentaries and Bible exposition. How does one explain this?
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
that the purpose of God . . .
This phrase above is key to our understanding Paul's point. The Lord told Rebekah that "the elder will serve the younger." How does the Lord know this? Does he depend on supernatural insight to see the future? Maybe. But not in this case. The Lord knows that the younger will serve the elder because he, himself will cause it to happen. If God doesn't cause it to happen, then how can it happen according to his purpose.
it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs . . .
Paul emphatically states that freedom of the will has NOTHING to do with election. God chose Jacob before he was born. God chose to bless Jacob before he did anything good or bad.
but of God who has mercy . . .
the logic of mercy is different than the logic of justice. Earlier in Romans, Paul strongly argues that the Lord will definitely administer deserved punishment. But here in this context, he also notes that God reserves the right to have mercy on whomever he wills. From Paul's standpoint, we all deserve punishment according to what we "will" and how we "run." But God's mercy is an entirely different thing altogether.
I will have mercy on whom I have mercy . . .
The Lord has the discretionary power and authority to pardon those whom he choses. His normal disposition is to be compassionate and forbearing. But, as Paul says, his choice of whom to pardon does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs. The Lord is using another criteria to decide whom to pardon. His decision is based on the reason for which a person exists. God dictates the course of a human life, which will achieve the intended goal he set for it.
That's his point. All human beings deserve wrath. But God sets a few individuals aside on whom to show mercy, so that they might serve his purpose.
I already responded and you couldnt understand, like I knew you wouldnt.
Like I said, many are being witnessed the truth of God and they flip it off as calvinism.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
This passage teaches that God loves the entire human race very much and desires the salvation of every single human being
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Is that what it means? Just a paragraph earlier Jesus says that one must be "born again" or "born from above." If God desired the salvation of every human being, then every human being would be saved. Right? Or do you think God is impotent?
Jim B
Well-Known Member
I think this is reading too much into the text. Jacob and Esau were real people. While they represent two different approaches to pleasing God that doesn't make them allegorical. The same applies to Cain and Abel, etc.
What do you mean by "spiritual language"?
That the OT language of the text is typological, having an allegorical interpretation (or understanding) in the NT.
You're perhaps thinking of the phrase "spiritual language" with reference to speaking in tongues. I wasn't using it in that sense.
Here is an example that Paul gives concerning the life of Abraham: "Abraham had two sons...". The language in the OT describes it's literal context, but it does so according to the flesh:
Gal 4:22 for it hath been written, that Abraham had two sons, one by the maid-servant, and one by the free-woman,
Then, Paul gives us it's deeper spiritual context, and what it means to us according to the spirit:
Gal 4:23 but he who is of the maid-servant, according to flesh hath been, and he who is of the free-woman, through the promise;
Gal 4:24 which things are allegorized, for these are the two covenants: one, indeed, from mount Sinai, to servitude bringing forth, which is Hagar;
Gal 4:25 for this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and doth correspond to the Jerusalem that now is , and is in servitude with her children,
Gal 4:26 and the Jerusalem above is the free-woman, which is mother of us all,
Paul gives additional examples of typology in Gal 4:27 ff, and Gal 4:30 ff.
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
There is a paradox between the sovereignty of God and Man's responsibility discussed in Rom. 9 & 10.
John MacArthur is an anomaly. He wants to be a Calvinist and a Dispensationalist at one and the same time. But you cannot be both.
"Pastor John MacArthur is a dangerous man, because he subtly has introduced many damnable heresies into the church—none more hideous than his denial of the redeeming power of the literal physical blood of Jesus Christ. MacArthur also teaches a form of works-based salvation. And to no surprise, as a Calvinist, MacArthur teaches that a lost sinner cannot be saved unless God first chooses him or her..."
The Bible tells us plainly that God will have ALL men to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. Which means that Five Point Calvinism is a lie of the devil. That may sound harsh but it is the truth.
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
I have learned much from John MacArthur, nothing of the mindset that you hold of him or the mysterious person's quote. I don't agree with everything John says, but most of what he teaches is sound. Never thought of him as legalistic or a Calvinist. He does gives perspective to this topic. I am neither a Calvinist nor an Armenian. God's sovereignty over His plan is true. Predestination is true and so is our responsibility and duty.
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
That certainly is part of predestination, which falls within His entire plan.
How could prophesied events take place with hair splitting accuracy hundreds and thousands of years after it was written unless His entire plan is predestined? The details are vast and events are contingent on eachother to take place in order. We cannot mess up God's plan. He factors in all our sins and blunders.
I submit that the significant things in life are predestined. Each of these events are connected and necessary for the next event to happen.
The Seals, Trumpets and Bowl events will happen exactly how He planned it. The Beast is here and on the move.
In history He chose all the leaders and those in authority for a purpose > Romans 13:1-2.
So it is not just our salvation. It took many events and people that came into our lives that led to that day, our divine appointment. He kept us alive as well so that we would make it. We were all written in the Book of Life before the foundatuon of the world.
Acts 4:28
to do whatever Your hand and purpose predestined to occur.
1 Corinthians 2:7
but we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory;
Romans 8:29
For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters;
Romans 8:30
and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
Ephesians 1:5
He predestined us to adoption as sons and daughters through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
Ephesians 1:11
In Him we also have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things in accordance with the plan of His will,
Romans 9:17
For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.””
He raised up Judas too and all of us who will perform some task within His perfect plan.
Now there are a zillion insignificant actions that do not interfere with His plan for His Elect and we have this freedom to make these choices good and bad. But don't think He wasn't involved in influencing major decisions in your life. I know, you think you made them all by yourself. Well, He lets us make blunders too, to teach us a lesson but He already had it planned. We did not catch Him off guard; as if He is up there shaking His head saying, "Oh my, look what you've done, now I'll have to scrap those plans a figure something else out"!
We can all look back at our lives and see His handiwork and be thankful, that He was always there for us. In a moment you could have gotten in a deadly accident - but you mysteriously averted the danger. That was God and His angels watching over you and using others even animals too - whatever it took for you to be delayed, to miss that moment. It could be a few second delay or a change of direction or you went back home because you forgot something and we have no idea that death was around the corner. We go through life _ many of us _ oblivious _ to what God is actually doing in our simple, apparently insignificant lives. And we don't realize the significant moments, how we assisted others, gave them exactly what they needed at the precise moment on their journeys.
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if sinners have their destiny already determined, as some argue, before the foundation of the world. They it is not being sincere, for the Lord to say that the Gospel of salvation, is indeed preached to the entire human race! It is not being truthful to tell the entire human race, that "Christ died for our sins according to the Scriprutes" (1 Cor. 15:3), which Pauls says, is the GOSPEL (verse 2), when in fact they cannot "repent and believe", as they are no ALL "predestined" by God to eternal life! John 3:16-18, is also FALSE!
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