Israeli attack on civilians should be condemned by all believers
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The world knows the horrors inflicted upon the people of Gaza. Their sin is open for viewing by all now.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Are you serious? Are we still in the OT, old covenant era? God has not sanctioned a war as long as Christianity has existed. When Christ walked the earth, Israel had no military, no land that was theirs, and no rights under Roman law…..
To equate old covenant behavior with new covenant teachings is absurd.
Paul gave us the Christian response to any kind of worldly conflict….
Rom 12:14-21….
”Keep on blessing those who persecute; bless and do not curse. 15 Rejoice with those who rejoice; weep with those who weep. 16 Have the same attitude toward others as toward yourselves; do not set your mind on lofty things, but be led along with the lowly things. Do not become wise in your own eyes.
17 Return evil for evil to no one. Take into consideration what is fine from the viewpoint of all men. 18 If possible, as far as it depends on you, be peaceable with all men. 19 Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but yield place to the wrath; for it is written: “‘Vengeance is mine; I will repay,’ says Jehovah.” 20 But “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by doing this you will heap fiery coals on his head.” 21 Do not let yourself be conquered by the evil, but keep conquering the evil with the good.”
This is in keeping with Christ’s admonition in Matt 5: 43-44….
”You heard that it was said: ‘You must love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 However, I say to you: Continue to love your enemies and to pray for those who persecute you,”
What is the attitude of the majority here…? Shame on you!
Being “no part of the world” as Jesus was, apparently means nothing to you. (John 17:16)
NOTHING to do with nations of the world (like unbelieving Israel) today. ZERO.
Carl Emerson
Well-Known Member
Jesus saw no conflict between faith and being a soldier.
Luke 7:7-9
7 Wherefore neither thought I myself worthy to come unto thee: but say in a word, and my servant shall be healed.
8 For I also am a man set under authority, having under me soldiers, and I say unto one, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.
9 When Jesus heard these things, he marvelled at him, and turned him about, and said unto the people that followed him, I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
Likewise in Acts 10:2 a soldier is considered devout.
In Romans 13:4 Soldiers are armed to keep civil order and are described as agents of God.
4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
These references would not seem to align with your position.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Some sources say otherwise….
Early Christians refused to serve in the Roman army, both in the legions and auxilia, considering such service as wholly incompatible with the teachings of Christianity.
Justin Martyr (110-l65 C.E.) in his “Dialogue with Trypho” wrote…. “We who were filled with war, and mutual slaughter, and every wickedness, have each through the whole earth changed our warlike weapons,—our swords into ploughshares, and our spears into implements of tillage.”
“A careful review of all the information available goes to show that, until the time of Marcus Aurelius [121-180] no Christian became a soldier; and no soldier, after becoming a Christian, remained in military service.” (The Rise of Christianity, 1947, E. W. Barnes, p. 333)
Does it say that this man continued in his military service? He was a Roman Army officer, so any Jew found joining the Roman army was looked on as a traitor, hated in much the same way Jewish tax collectors working for the Roman government…..Matthew was one of those despised men.
Another translation words it a bit differently….in modern English…
Rom 13:1-4….
“Let every person be in subjection to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except by God; the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God. 2 Therefore, whoever opposes the authority has taken a stand against the arrangement of God; those who have taken a stand against it will bring judgment against themselves. 3 For those rulers are an object of fear, not to the good deed, but to the bad. Do you want to be free of fear of the authority? Keep doing good, and you will have praise from it; 4 for it is God’s minister to you for your good. But if you are doing what is bad, be in fear, for it is not without purpose that it bears the sword. It is God’s minister, an avenger to express wrath against the one practicing what is bad.”
What this scripture says to me is that governments are placed in this world by God for the benefit of his own people, otherwise anarchy would be a global menace. Keeping law and order benefits everyone, and the law will come down on those doing bad. Corruption however, is in all worldly governments for the simple reason that “power corrupts humans”….every time. They serve a purpose, albeit imperfectly.
However, Jesus taught us to be “no part of the world” (John 17:16) and that includes it’s divisive governments….is that a contradiction? No!
The world can do whatever it likes, because Satan is the unseen “god of this world”. (2 Cor 4:3-4; 1 John 5:19)…therefore, we don’t have to be a part of it. We won’t vote them into office, nor will we shed blood in their name. “We will obey God as ruler rather than men”, as the apostles said.
Jesus never interfered with the workings of the Roman government even though they oppressed his people and possessed their land. He remained completely neutral, so must we.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Its called war.
Look in the OT. Wars happened all the time..God even instituted some himself. And he will institute a few more before it’s all over.
Carl Emerson
Well-Known Member
So you believe that Governments keeping civil rule by armed police is OK, but having soldiers to defend borders is not ?
Just politely confirming your position.
You quote John 17:16 but the message of John 17 seems to be that we are to be in the world but not of it.
Having no part of the world would seem to refer to the spirit of the world - It doesn't seem to advocate a pietistic withdrawal from it.
So you advocate neutrality in response to what the world is doing - how does this relate to having concern for the poor? Should we not care about the struggling ?
Just trying to get a clear understanding of your position.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
My position is the same as the early Christians.…we live in the world because we have no choice, but Jesus told us to be no part of it. To me that means whatever the world does has nothing to do with me. I will not join the military or shed blood for any government because Jesus told us to love our enemies….
The police and the soldiers are not much different from my perspective, both play a role that God has put in place, as I said, they serve a purpose, albeit imperfectly. Corruption is rife in both.
I would never carry a weapon or use one on another human being for purely political reasons.
In my view, a Christian will “take” a bullet for his fellow man but he will never “fire” one.
It means a separation from all that this world promotes….. it’s political squabbles that may lead to war…it’s immoral lifestyle…it’s foul language…..it’s greedy commercial system….or it’s false worship….we are not to participate in any of it.
At no time are we to give the devil an opportunity to divide us over such things as who the next President should be….if we vote them into office, then we must accept responsibility for what they do once in power…..who has ever not been disappointed in a political leader? They promise the world and deliver very little…such is any human system of government….they fail time and again because of who is supporting and influencing them. (1 John 5:19)
As Jesus said… “you will always have the poor with you“, so how we treat our fellow man must reflect how Jesus treated others too. He was kind and compassionate on a personal level, but he did not instigate charities, but concentrated on people’s spiritual needs rather than just their physical needs. So our focus is on the spiritual needs first, and if there are physical needs we render these on a personal basis….like the Good Samaritan.
Neutrality means not taking sides, like we see in political campaigns…..Christians can get pretty hot under the collar over political differences….but true Christians are no part of that kind of divisiveness. Their neutrality protects them from seeing their brothers and sisters in a negative way just because they support the “other” party. The devil then has a wedge. We don’t need to give him more…he has enough already.
Our position is being in the world but not being part of its goals or politics or conflicts.
Just imitate Christ…that’s it.
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
You would cast out your child who is lost knowing that with your help, love and assistance, they would be saved in three years or 50 years? You don't understand that God works in the lives of unbelievers long before they are saved, drawing them, leading them to that point in time when He removes their blindness. You would rather reject, hate and discard future brothers because you think you chose God all by yourself and you judge others who don't. You boast in that and condemn those who don't, thinking you have some keener spiritual sense ... you think you are better than them.
We were all blind and none of us were capable of seeking God without His assistance. Jesus said, no one can come to the Father unless He draws them.
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. Eph. 2:8-9
I would advise you to not curse them for your own sake. If you curse them, you will be cursed.
What do you think God is going to do to those nations who attack Jerusalem? His plan existed long ago, long before they even heard about Christ and rejected Him.
He has and know who His sheep are and when the time comes, will call them. You don't know, so better not mess with His plan, nor march and rally for the wrong side.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
News Flash!!! Dateline March 16, 2024!!! Jerusaleum!
The people in Israel are Jewish and are obliged to follow the Mosaic Law.
Yahweh’s rules of war…However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Deuteronomy 20:16
The funny thing about the Mosaic Law is that they function as directives not choices. If someone breaks the Law and it says the punishment is death….it is as great a sin to not kill them as it was to break the Law to begin with.
The reason for the kill all that breathes Law, is so that they do not have to fight the same people over and over again. Ergo what is going on now….
Now although this is not the Christian way I will always back Israel regardless and have stood between Israel and her enemies before and would be proud to do so now.
In the war of Armageddon what side of the line are you people going to line up with….Israel’s enemies? God bless Israel.
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Earburner
Well-Known Member
The real problem is, most professing Christians are not aware of how vast "the synagogue of Satan" is!
Therefore, they are also not aware of how to apply the simple statement of truth about "that spirit of antichrist", which infects many.
KJV 1John.2
[22] Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1John.4
[3] And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2John.1
[7] For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
Not at all. I used to have some regard for Trump largely because of his somewhat pro life views.. However, he fails on the vaccine and supporting the genocide in the middle east issues. Your attempt to associate defenders of the innocents with 'haters' is exposed here.
The Prodigal son was not cast off. He did have to go through tough times though to learn lessons and bring him to repentance. Whom God loves He chastens.
Yes I do. That does not mean He chooses for you though. Like leading a horse to water. You can't make them drink. He gives all the opportunity to accept and believe in Him. He knows the heart of man, even before we do. Even before we are born!
You made that up entirely. Why would I hate people who will later choose Jesus??
You made that up too.
That does not mean His hand and help is not extended to all. It just means that all will not accept it. If any of the wocked did accept it, then they could say the same thing, that He had helped them through life as well.
Right that applies to all! But not all accept. He died to draw us to Him.
Show a quote where I cursed someone?
That depends! If you mean today, He might help them! (because of their great sin of killing and starving the innocents) If you mean in the end when they get saved, then He will destroy all their enemies.
Yes and that plan was to let Israel go through the wrath of God so that they would one day finally say uncle. The plan was never to aid and bless extreme evil and sin and rebellion!
The right side is His side and He is on the side of the innocents and widows and children and poor etc. He is with those that choose to accept Jesus.
No way! He disgusts me deeply. (as does Canada and etc who push for mass murder of the little ones)
That is true. So in applying that to Israel, we see that antichrists are attacking and starving and killing tens of thousands of women and children. Preachers defend that (as do some here) and suggest that we pray for their success in this! No. I would pray for their salvation and repentance. Not until they do accept and believe God will He restore and bless them.
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