Is There Different Beliefs Among Catholics? Chrislam Movement?

[BreadOfLife]

Rom 3:10
[10] As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

As usual: You reveal, you can read Scripture, but do not understand it.

I have told you before...
Use what you should have learned in First grade regarding any subject.
Who, What, When, Why, Where, How.

Paul is speaking TO people IN Rome.
Nothing says Paul is exclusively speaking TO Romans or Jews or any other Gentiles.
Paul is speaking TO...any person Who Is Converted...and Speaking ABOUT them AND people WHO ARE NOT converted...and Paul references what WAS written About People NOT converted IN Christ...that "THEY" are Not Righteous!

Did you GO READ what "was Written"?
Did you Learn WHO it was Written About?
Did you Learn WHY none were Righteous?

It's not rocket science.
Righteousness of God is What a person "IN Christ" IS gifted By the Lord God.
And "None" (without Christ IN them) is righteous!

A person IN Christ should know they have been Given the Righteousness of God.

A person NOT IN Christ should be Taught, they have Not the Righteousness of God!
NONE of them, not ONE person, without Christ IN them, has the righteousness of God IN them.

Hello...Christ IS the Righteousness of God!
If Christ IS Not IN a person, that person has Not the Righteousness of God!

Yipes!
It is True, None, not one person has the Righteousness of God IN Them, If they do Not have Christ IN them!
It is True, Every person WHO has Christ IN THEM has the Righteousness of God IN them!l

Luke 1:
[28] And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

The angel came TO: Mary V.erse27.
The angel spoke TO Mary.
The angel greeted her with a word, meant to get her attention...Hail
The angel gave Mary a message (handy, since angel's of God are Messengers of God)
The angel told Mary she was highly favored (wow, what an awesome message to receive from the Lord. Sounds like the angel is about to notify Mary of a great task the Lord has chosen her to do, don't ya think?)
The angel tells Mary the Lord is WITH her.
(That is good to know, since historically it is written the Lord was WITH others He chose to do particular tasks!)
The angel tells Mary she is Blessed among women.
(Humm Blessed among SPECIFICALLY WOMEN...NOT men? Appears her task will have something to do with her being a woman and Virgin ...Verse 27.)
And what about Luke 1:28?

To me it is quite straight forward...
Mary WAS chosen for a particular task
...and so were Others.
The Lord was WITH her
...and so the Lord was with Others.
She was highly favored
...and Others were favored.
She was Blessed
...and others were Blessed.
Her task was exclusive
...and so was Others.

So what is your point?
The scripture you mention say nothing about:
Mary being herself naturally born SINLESS.
Mary becoming SINLESS.
Mary being Righteous.
Mary having Christ IN her heart.
Mary being saved.
Mary being born again.
Mary being given another name.
Mary being a saint.
Mary being Blessed among men.

Why is it Catholic men WHO for centuries have supposedly been celibate preach this seeming odd love affair with Mary? and make up a whole doctrine about her that scripture does not teach?

Nonsense.

YOU have trotted out Rom. 3:10 aas a “proof text” against Mary’s sinlessness. If Rom. 3:10 isn’t talking about Mary – then this verse cannot be used against her – so make up your mind.

As for Luke 1:20, your ignorance is showing again. Actually – you’re NOT ignorant of the word “Kecharitomene” because I have explained this to you ad nauseam in other threads. You’re simply dishonest. Once again, the Angel didn’t call Mary “Mary”. He called her “Kecharitomene”, which is a perfect passive participle and is defined as “completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace, indicating a completed action with a PERMANENT result.”

When you are able to intelligently address this, then we can have a conversation.
Until then, however, your psychotic rants expose your ignorance.

 

[Triumph1300]

im sorry to say that praying to Jesus is hardly any better wadr, that does not rep the relationship of Priest to High Priest imo

I don't have a clue about what you are posting.
Sorry BBYRD009.

 

[bbyrd009]

I don't have a clue about what you are posting.
Sorry BBYRD009.

no prob bro, not a big deal i guess.
Jesus is our High Priest, and we are supposed to be Priests right

 

[Triumph1300]

Hebrews (7:13-17)

 

[bbyrd009]

Hebrews (7:13-17)

you think this denies Jesus as our High Priest?

 

[Taken]

YOU have trotted out Rom. 3:10 aas a “proof text” against Mary’s sinlessness. If Rom. 3:10 isn’t talking about Mary – then this verse cannot be used against her – so make up your mind.

Rom 3:10
[10] As it is written...

Of course Roman 3:10 applied to Every Jew!

As for Luke 1:20, your ignorance is showing again. Actually – you’re NOT ignorant of the word “Kecharitomene” because I have explained this to you ad nauseam in other threads. You’re simply dishonest. Once again, the Angel didn’t call Mary “Mary”. He called her “Kecharitomene”, which is a perfect passive participle and is defined as “completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace, indicating a completed action with a PERMANENT result.”

Oops.. Luke 1:20... no

Catholic prayer...

Hail Kecharitomeme...blah, blah, blah...No!

Catholic prayer...

Hail Mary... Yes!

Aside from your gobblygook convoluted Catholic doctrine...when are you going to show one Scripture that ever claimed Mary was ever Sinless?

No one is holding their breath that you can show IN Scripture what does not exist!

Once again your namecalling does Not overshadow your silly claims.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Rom 3:10
[10] As it is written...

Of course Roman 3:10 applied to Every Jew!

Oops.. Luke 1:20... no

Catholic prayer...

Hail Kecharitomeme...blah, blah, blah...No!

Catholic prayer...

Hail Mary... Yes!

Aside from your gobblygook convoluted Catholic doctrine...when are you going to show one Scripture that ever claimed Mary was ever Sinless?

No one is holding their breath that you can show IN Scripture what does not exist!

Once again your namecalling does Not overshadow your silly claims.

I’ve already shown you proof that Kecharitomene means “sinless” –and it applies before, during and after the Angel’s visit. Just because you reject this evidence doesn’t make it “null and void”. It simply means that YOU reject the Word of God.

ONE more time . . .
In Luke 1:28, the Angel used the term, “Kecharitomene” to describe Mary. Kecharitomene is the perfect passive participle, indicates a completed action with permanent result. So it translates, “COMPLETELY, PERFECTLY, ENDURINGLY endowed with grace.”
Kecharitomene is not a mere description here. It is used as a TITLE – a name.
The Angel didn’t say, “Hail Mary, full of grace.” He said, “Hail, Kecharitomene . . .”

As for Rom. 3:10 – it DIDN’T apply to “every” Jew. YOURS is an ignorant understanding.
This verse is a reference to Psalm 14, where it says:

Psalm 14:1-3
The FOOL says in his heart,
“There is no God.”
They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good.
The Lord looks down from heaven on all mankind
to see if there are any who understand,
any who seek God.
All have turned away, all have become corrupt;
there is no one who does good, not even one.

In verse 5 of this Psalm, God is in the company of the “RIGHTEOUS”.
Gee - and I thought there was “NONE” righteous??

Do your homework . . .

 

[Taken]

I’ve already shown you proof that Kecharitomene means “sinless” –and it applies before, during and after the Angel’s visit. Just because you reject this evidence doesn’t make it “null and void”. It simply means that YOU reject the Word of God.

ONE more time . . .
In Luke 1:28, the Angel used the term, “Kecharitomene” to describe Mary. Kecharitomene is the perfect passive participle, indicates a completed action with permanent result. So it translates, “COMPLETELY, PERFECTLY, ENDURINGLY endowed with grace.”
Kecharitomene is not a mere description here. It is used as a TITLE – a name.
The Angel didn’t say, “Hail Mary, full of grace.” He said, “Hail, Kecharitomene . . .”

As for Rom. 3:10 – it DIDN’T apply to “every” Jew. YOURS is an ignorant understanding.
This verse is a reference to Psalm 14, where it says:

Psalm 14:1-3
The FOOL says in his heart,
“There is no God.”
They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good.
The Lord looks down from heaven on all mankind
to see if there are any who understand,
any who seek God.
All have turned away, all have become corrupt;
there is no one who does good, not even one.

In verse 5 of this Psalm, God is in the company of the “RIGHTEOUS”.
Gee - and I thought there was “NONE” righteous??

Do your homework . . .

You can repeat your same old verbiage over and over ... "this means this, therefore this means this, therefore this means this, therefore this means this, so there ya go ... this therefore means, Mary was always SINLESS"... yipes!

Nothing in Scripture proclaims ANY natural born person IS naturally born SINLESS...

All Life, Forgiveness, Favoritism, Grace, Righteousness, Goodness, Kindness, Truth, Power,
Salvation, Quickening, Reconciliation, Glory, etc.
Comes From God "Through" Christ!

A person being Blessed with Gods favortism, Gods Grace, Gods Love, Gods Righteousness, Gods Truth , Gods Goodness, Gods Kindness, Gods Salvation, Gods Quickening, Gods Reconciliation, Gods Specific Appointed Task....
Does not THEREFORE mean the person "IS" SINLESS!

A SINLESS person is one who has Put on incorruption.
They are Forgiven, Soul saved, Spirit Quickened... And BODY Glorified.

Scripture expressly teaches Mary's Spirit was Quickened..."After" (Jesus died, revived and ascending Back UP to Heaven.)

Scripture and Order and a tad of common sense reveals what you preach IS False.

Not one TRUTH in Scripture even hints that Mary was "Excluded" from having a need for Salvation, from having a need for her spirit to be Quickened or that her body was Not corrupt.

You have been repeatedly been taught and assured by Catholic men...lies about Mary....
For how many years? 30, 40, 50, 60 years?

The fact is brainwashing is a very effective tool Against the TRUTH,

and BY your own admission, You have made yourself Subject to the Teachings of the Catholic Church, And its Clerics; To Believe what they Teach, whether or not it is expressly taught in Scripture. If they CAN give you a circle jerk of twisting the Truth to Appear plausible, you're on board!

Nothing whatsoever Scripturally Was Taught by Jesus or His Chosen Jewish Disciples...that Any naturally born earthly human was naturally born Uncorrupted.

You have merely claimed what you believe, and verified your claims with Catholic doctrine.

Scripture teaches:

[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Where does Scripture teach Mary was ever SINLESS?

 

[BreadOfLife]

You can repeat your same old verbiage over and over ... "this means this, therefore this means this, therefore this means this, therefore this means this, so there ya go ... this therefore means, Mary was always SINLESS"... yipes!

Nothing in Scripture proclaims ANY natural born person IS naturally born SINLESS...

All Life, Forgiveness, Favoritism, Grace, Righteousness, Goodness, Kindness, Truth, Power,
Salvation, Quickening, Reconciliation, Glory, etc.
Comes From God "Through" Christ!

A person being Blessed with Gods favortism, Gods Grace, Gods Love, Gods Righteousness, Gods Truth , Gods Goodness, Gods Kindness, Gods Salvation, Gods Quickening, Gods Reconciliation, Gods Specific Appointed Task....
Does not THEREFORE mean the person "IS" SINLESS!

A SINLESS person is one who has Put on incorruption.
They are Forgiven, Soul saved, Spirit Quickened... And BODY Glorified.

Scripture expressly teaches Mary's Spirit was Quickened..."After" (Jesus died, revived and ascending Back UP to Heaven.)

Scripture and Order and a tad of common sense reveals what you preach IS False.

Not one TRUTH in Scripture even hints that Mary was "Excluded" from having a need for Salvation, from having a need for her spirit to be Quickened or that her body was Not corrupt.

You have been repeatedly been taught and assured by Catholic men...lies about Mary....
For how many years? 30, 40, 50, 60 years?

The fact is brainwashing is a very effective tool Against the TRUTH,

and BY your own admission, You have made yourself Subject to the Teachings of the Catholic Church, And its Clerics; To Believe what they Teach, whether or not it is expressly taught in Scripture. If they CAN give you a circle jerk of twisting the Truth to Appear plausible, you're on board!

Nothing whatsoever Scripturally Was Taught by Jesus or His Chosen Jewish Disciples...that Any naturally born earthly human was naturally born Uncorrupted.

You have merely claimed what you believe, and verified your claims with Catholic doctrine.

Scripture teaches:

[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Where does Scripture teach Mary was ever SINLESS?

WRONG.
“Sinless” doesn’t mean you have a glorified body. Where do you get this ignorant nonsense??
Even Jesus didn’t have a glorified Body until AFTER the Resurrection.

You have rejected Mary’s title of “Kecharitomene” with every fiber of your being – but have presented ZERO evidence to refute it. Why don’t you at least TRY??

TRY to show how being “completely, perfect and enduringly” endowed with grace – a PAST event and a PERMANENT condition is not sinless.
That means she was complete fill up with grace from BEFORE the angel’s greeting – and for good.

Our hope as Christians is to BECOME “completely, perfectly and enduringly” filled with grace forever.
Mary was already there before Luke 1:28 . . .

 

[aspen]

No one is saying Mary didn’t need a savior - she was under the curse of original sin like the rest of us. However, she was free of personal sin.

 

[Taken]

WRONG.
“Sinless” doesn’t mean you have a glorified body. Where do you get this ignorant nonsense??

1 Cor 15
[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Even Jesus didn’t have a glorified Body until AFTER the Resurrection.

John 17
[5] And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which "I had with thee before the world was."

You have rejected Mary’s title of “Kecharitomene”

So? LOL

It is Catholic men who declared Mary's...
NAME and TITLE..."is full of Grace".

So what?

I am not subject to Teachings of Catholic men. That's your gig, not mine!

So by the same token When you are called IGNORANT...we should presume THAT is your NAME and TITLE? LOL.

but have presented ZERO evidence to refute it. Why don’t you at least TRY??

I disagree with your Opinion.

You have provided No Evidence of
Jesus or Any Human speaking TO or ABOUT Mary, saying her Name or Title is "Full of Grace".

TRY to show how being “completely, perfect and enduringly” endowed with grace – a PAST event and a PERMANENT condition is not sinless.

It's your claim, you provide the Evidence being fully endowed with Gods Grace means SINLESS.

Our hope as Christians is to BECOME “completely, perfectly and enduringly” filled with grace forever.

So, as a Catholic man, your hope is to become like Mary?

 

[BreadOfLife]

1 Cor 15
[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

And there you go perverting the Word of God again to fit your bizarre views.

1 Cor. 15:53 is about the RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD when the Lord returns.
It’s NOT some random verse about how sinless people receive glorified bodies – but how the DEAD in Christ receive their glorified bodies.

Do your HOMEWORK and stop abusing the Word of God . . .

John 17
[5] And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which "I had with thee before the world was."

Your Scriptural perversions are pathetic.

In John 17:5 – Jesus is praying to the Father TO BE glorified - as He was before he came down to become human like us. This verse says nothing about Him having a glorified Body.

If he HAD a glorified body before the Crucifixion – the whips and nails and spears would have had NO EFFECT on Him. As it turns out – they KILLED Him.

So? LOL

It is Catholic men who declared Mary's...
NAME and TITLE..."is full of Grace".

So what?

I am not subject to Teachings of Catholic men. That's your gig, not mine!

So by the same token When you are called IGNORANT...we should presume THAT is your NAME and TITLE? LOL.
I disagree with your Opinion.

You have provided No Evidence of
Jesus or Any Human speaking TO or ABOUT Mary, saying her Name or Title is "Full of Grace".
It's your claim, you provide the Evidence being fully endowed with Gods Grace means SINLESS.
So, as a Catholic man, your hope is to become like Mary?

And a thousand denials doesn’t equal ONE valid argument.
You have failed here because you don’t have an answer . . .

I absolutely want to be completely, perfectly and enduringly endowed with grace.
If that’s not YOUR goal – then what IS??

 

[Taken]

No one is saying Mary didn’t need a savior -

Ok thank you.

she was under the curse of original sin like the rest of us. However, she was free of personal sin.

You mean, she was born in sin?...

And from her natural birth she Never committed sin?


Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

[QUOTE="BreadOfLife, post: 682050, member: 7345
1 Cor. 15:53 is about the RESURRECTION OF "THE DEAD" when the Lord returns.

It’s NOT some random verse about how sinless people receive glorified bodies –

LOL...uh that is your quote, not mine!
And BYW...ridiculous!

Do your HOMEWORK and stop abusing the Word of God . . .

Your Scriptural perversions are pathetic.

Your blasting what you said! LOL!

You fail in Spiritual Understanding!

The Lord does NOT resurrect "The SINLESS" LOL...

The Lord Resurrects CORRUPT "BODIES" In GLORY... OF SAVED SOULS and QUICKENED SPIRITS...

FYI...you should learn WHY you FAIL in Spiritual Understanding...
(As you teach stupid things that Any human is SINLESS )
Hint hint...Reprobate MIND/ Hardened Heart!

 

[BreadOfLife]

[QUOTE="BreadOfLife, post: 682050, member: 7345
1 Cor. 15:53 is about the RESURRECTION OF "THE DEAD" when the Lord returns.



LOL...uh that is your quote, not mine!
And BYW...ridiculous!



Your blasting what you said! LOL!

You fail in Spiritual Understanding!

The Lord does NOT resurrect "The SINLESS" LOL...

The Lord Resurrects CORRUPT "BODIES" In GLORY... OF SAVED SOULS and QUICKENED SPIRITS...

FYI...you should learn WHY you FAIL in Spiritual Understanding...
(As you teach stupid things that Any human is SINLESS )
Hint hint...Reprobate MIND/ Hardened Heart!

Ummmmmm, I’m not the one foolishly who used 1 Cor. 15:53 in a desperate attempt to show that Mary couldn't have been sinless because she didn’t have a glorified body. That was YOUR blunder . . .

PS – you can’t address her sinlessness until you address “Kecharitomene” (Luke 1:28) – which, so far you have avoided like the plague . . .

 

[Taken]

Ummmmmm, I’m not the one foolishly who used 1 Cor. 15:53 in a desperate attempt to show that Mary couldn't have been sinless because she didn’t have a glorified body. That was YOUR blunder . . .

Humans ARE NOT SINLESS.
ALL humans ARE naturally born IN SIN and Commit SIN.

Numerous Scriptures Reveal Those Facts...any Human can Believe Scripture OR Not...

Then there is the Odd ball...(like you), who claims to Believe Scripture, THEN, Claims what Goes Against Scripture IS TRUE.

PS – you can’t address her sinlessness until you address “Kecharitomene” (Luke 1:28) – which, so far you have avoided like the plague . . .

No, I have Not AVOIDED your claims....

I have told You straight out, I do not Agree With your claim, That Mary was Naturally Born SINLESS.

You have repeated to ad nauseam HOW A Catholic has come to the conclusion that Mary was SINLESS from the TIME of her natural birth.

So what? You have agreed to Believe without question what Catholics Teach.

What does that have to do with me?
Nothing!

I NEVER joined a Catholic Church or claimed I would believe Everything their Clerics Teach!

And When You Teach What Catholic Clerics have Taught You....I find that you are a Gullible person...that YOU fall for and repeat.

And your endless frustration and anger and snarkiness For failing to get me to agree with you...has become like your own personal shoddy comedy routine...funny at first, and now old and boring.

No matter how hard you try, or what name you call me...I will Never fall for your False Teaching That Any earthly Human IS SINLESS.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[aspen]

There are many people who are free of personal sin. Children before a certain age, folks with certain disabilities and some people of advanced age

 

[Taken]

In John 17:5 – Jesus is praying to the Father TO BE glorified - as He was before he came down to become human like us. This verse says nothing about Him having a glorified Body.

If he HAD a glorified body before the Crucifixion – the whips and nails and spears would have had NO EFFECT on Him. As it turns out – they KILLED Him.

WOW.
You are a prime Example of being shown the Truth...Yet Still lack Understanding.

If he HAD a glorified body before

He IS the Spirit of God. He does Not Change, regardless of what FORM He takes upon Himself!

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

I absolutely want to be completely, perfectly and enduringly endowed with grace.

Then you might want to consider believing what Scripture teaches instead of man made
doctrines that teach the opposite of Scripture.

If that’s not YOUR goal – then what IS??

Simple:
Forgiveness for not having Believed.
...Christ Accomplished.

Restoration of my soul...
...Christ Accomplished.

Quickening of my spirit...
...Christ Accomplished.

Justification for my body's Glorified Resurrection
...Christ Accomplished.

Christ's Aid in Precepts among men
...On going.

Waiting with patience for BODILY Resurrection in Glory.
...On going.

The Lord has already provided me with what I wanted...and everyday I am Thankful for His Mercy, Grace, Gifts and Blessings.

Maybe one day you will stop wanting and instead receive and be Thankful.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[BreadOfLife]

WOW.
You are a prime Example of being shown the Truth...Yet Still lack Understanding.



He IS the Spirit of God. He does Not Change, regardless of what FORM He takes upon Himself!

Glory to God,
Taken

Yes, more of your Docetist heresy

Noted . . .