Is Ignorance Bliss?

[Pancho Frijoles]

Some religious groups believe that God forgives people who are not aware of certain "doctrinal truths" (as conceived by such religious groups), but starts making them accountable when they become aware. If they reject "doctrinal truth" once aware, they are damned to eternal destruction or eternal torture.

My question here to all of you is: Why would those religious groups preach the "doctrinal truth", if the risk is that people who were going to be forgiven due to their unawareness, will be now at risk of being condemned?

 

[Matthias]

The premise is that people who don’t know the truth are on easy street. That’s too broad.

“Go and make disciples”

Witness and warning. It’s a dangerous thing to be confronted with the truth and reject it.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

The premise is that people who don’t know the truth are on easy street. That’s too broad.

“Go and make disciples”

Witness and warning. It’s a dangerous thing to be confronted with the truth and reject it.

Hi Matthias

Thanks for jumping in, my friend.
I didn't understand your first sentence. Could you elaborate a bit more? Who acts under this premise? Do you believe in that premise? What are the implications of being "on easy street"? What do you mean as "too broad": that the classification of "unaware" people is too broad, or are you refering to the broad door that leads to perdition?

 

[Matthias]

Hi Matthias

Thanks for jumping in, my friend.
I didn't understand your first sentence. Could you elaborate a bit more? Who acts under this premise?

Universalists.

Do you believe in that premise?

No. I don’t believe in universalism.

What are the implications of being "on easy street"?

The implication is that what a person believes doesn’t matter. Just play nicely with others and everything will be fine in the judgement.

What do you mean as "too broad": that the classification of "unaware" people is too broad, or are you refering to the broad door that leads to perdition?

I believe the majority of people who have ever lived, lived and died unaware of the gospel.

It’s the classic little old lady from Fiji classroom exercise. A person lived and died long before the Messiah was born. She never heard of Jesus. She never heard the Messiah preaching and preached. The gospel? She doesn’t know, and couldn’t tell you anything at all about it. She will be resurrected and judged.

The Messiah will judge her based on what she did and what she reasonably could have known.

She either lived the gospel (to some extent) without knowing anything about it or she didn’t live the gospel without knowing anything about it.

Into the lake of fire she goes?

Some theologies say yes. Some theologies say no. My theology says leave it in the hands of the Messiah to decide.

There are billions just like that hypothetical little old lady from Fiji. They will all be judged just as she will be. Will the outcome be the same for all? Leave it in the capable hands of Jesus to decide. He will know every detail and judge righteously.

 

[Wrangler]

Another great thread @Pancho Frijoles

My first Bible Study leader was fond of observing that the constant message of the Bible is, "Don't go too far left. Don't go too far right." (Jesus spoke of this as the narrow road.) OTOH, we have "ignorance is bliss." And OTOH, we have, "know the truth and the truth will set you free."

These are principles to live by and it takes a wise person to know when to apply which one.

• "Ignorance is bliss" works well when the information is counterproductive. One example is, "if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all." Most are blissful in not knowing the mean thinks some might think about you over a decision, event, or action.
• "Know the truth and the truth will set you free" works well within the confines of humility. If you recall, pursuing knowledge was the Original Sin.

 

[Matthias]

The modern day little old lady from Fiji. She has heard the gospel and rejected it. She‘s a nice woman but wants no part of Jesus and his gospel. She heard the truth and treated it as if it were a lie.

I tell you @Pancho Frijoles this woman has made a decision that puts her in great jeopardy.

See the parable of the sower.

 

[Matthias]

“My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge” (Hosea 4:6) is incompatible with “ignorance is bliss”.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Thank you, @Matthias and @Wrangler, for your explanations.

I realize, based on Matthias response, that a person who is in ignorance about certain doctrines that Matthias considers essential for salvation, is in less danger than a person who was aware of such doctrines, but rejected them as a lie.

Then, my question is why should you preach such doctrines to that person, if by doing that you are increasing his/her net risk of perdition?
Preaching should be an activity that decreases the risk of perdition of a person. Isn't that true?

My personal position is that, every time you preach salvation, it should increase the net probability of that person being saved.
If your preaching does not do that, then there is something wrong with what you are preaching.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

“My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge” (Hosea 4:6) is incompatible with “ignorance is bliss”.

I fully agree.
Knowledge should increase the probability, so to speak, of avoiding destruction.

Knowing that smoking leads to lung cancer is something good, because it increases the probability of a person quitting smoking and avoiding cancer.
But if I were to prove that remaining ignorant about the danger of smoking gives you a risk to develop cancer of, say, 15%, while becoming aware increased your risk to 30%, then campaigns to quit smoking would be a very bad thing.

Let's suppose that a religious person considers that believing that Jesus was resurrected physically is essential to avoid eternal destruction.
Now, people normally don't see dead people resurrecting nor reason to admit it happens. Such a belief does NOT help them in their daily lives. It won't make them better parents or children, better workers, better citizens. It won't bring them more health, prosperity or love. God will judge them as per the law embedded on their hearts. God will be fair to reward everyone according to their works and understanding.

So, why should that religious person preach the physical resurrection of Jesus, if many would reject that belief and be damned?
(I'm not refering to any religious person, but to a religious person who is convinced that such belief is essential for salvation).

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

And OTOH, we have, "know the truth and the truth will set you free."

I agree fully, and that goes in line with my previous post to @Matthias.
If a doctrine I am preaching will decrease the net probability of somebody to be set free, why should I preach it?

 

[amadeus]

Some religious groups believe that God forgives people who are not aware of certain "doctrinal truths" (as conceived by such religious groups), but starts making them accountable when they become aware. If they reject "doctrinal truth" once aware, they are damned to eternal destruction or eternal torture.

My question here to all of you is: Why would those religious groups preach the "doctrinal truth", if the risk is that people who were going to be forgiven due to their unawareness, will be now at risk of being condemned?

Without considering too much what a religious group does or does not teach... consider and take to heart what Jesus said:

Lu 12:48

But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

From that: "much is given... much [is] required". God is the One who ultimately gives anything that matters to Him and based on what He knows about what a person has been given, it is then also God who requires from the person.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

My theology says leave it in the hands of the Messiah to decide.

There are billions just like that hypothetical little old lady from Fiji. They will all be judged just as she will be. Will the outcome be the same for all? Leave it in the capable hands of Jesus to decide. He will know every detail and judge righteously.

I agree with you, although my view is that what you have just stated (That Jesus will decide since He knows every detail and judge righteously) applies, ultimately, to all people, including

1. The old lady from Fiji who didn't hear you preaching
2. The modern lady from Fiji who heard you preaching and converted to Christian Faith
3. The modern lady from Fiji who heard you preaching and did not convert to Christian Faith.

Although in all these cases we can make a preliminary judgement of the observable life of these ladies, as to if they are living up to the spiritual law embedded in all human beings, it is ultimately God who knows the secrets of their hearts, their level of knowledge, and will reward them wisely.

I am including case number 3, because not converting to Christian Faith (or any other religion) does not imply necessarily rejecting the essence of the gospel. It does not imply choosing evil or "the works of darkeness".
There may be many circumstances in that person's mind, history or environment which lead him/her to not understanding or assessing correctly what is being presented. There are factors related to the preacher as well.
Gandhi is said to have declared "if all Christians behave as Christians, everybody would become Christian". So, a doctrinal truth accompanied with a bad example, nullifies the effect of any verbal teaching.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Without considering too much what a religious group does or does not teach... consider and take to heart what Jesus said:

Lu 12:48

But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

From that: "much is given... much [is] required". God is the One who ultimately gives anything that matters to Him and based on what He knows about what a person has been given, it is then also God who requires from the person.

Yes, my friend

In the parable of the talents, no one is left without a talent.
No man is deprived of the gifts of God, or the grace of God necessary to multiply those gifts. One of those gifts is the basic notion of good and evil (and sometimes, not so "basic". Pagan people could have very advanced notions of good and evil. Plato could have had a notion far advanced from a peasant Israelite of the same time period... or from some modern believers)

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Universalists.

I cannot speak on behalf of universalists, obviously.
But speaking on my behalf, as a universalist, I don't think that people in ignorance are "on the easy street".
They face their own spiritual challenges, as we all do.
They know what is right, and the difficulties in being faithful to what is right.

Take a girl in rural India who has never heard of Jesus and has to decide tonight between running away with her handsome wealthy boyfriend, who she knows is not a virtuous man, or paying heed to the advice of their parents, who recommend stopping seeing him. Choosing the first option will give her ephemeral satisfaction, while choosing the second option will increase the probability of long-term happiness.

The broad and the narrow door are in front of her, as they would be in front of a Methodist girl.
If she prays to Vishnú for guidance, she is still accountable to God. She could not put as an excuse that Vishnú told her that she should run away with her boyfriend. The opposite is true: she will have followed the Holy Spirit if she decides to pay heed to her parents, even if she thinks she got that insight from Vishnú.

 

[Matthias]

I agree with you, although my view is that what you have just stated (That Jesus will decide since He knows every detail and judge righteously) applies, ultimately, to all people, including

1. The old lady from Fiji who didn't hear you preaching
2. The modern lady from Fiji who heard you preaching and converted to Christian Faith
3. The modern lady from Fiji who heard you preaching and did not convert to Christian Faith.

It’s Jesus who is doing the preaching.

Although in all these cases we can make a preliminary judgement of the observable life of these ladies, as to if they are living up to the spiritual law embedded in all human beings, it is ultimately God who knows the secrets of their hearts, their level of knowledge, and will reward them wisely.

God has appointed a human person to judge. It isn’t Buddha. It isn’t Mohammad. It isn’t your religious founder. It isn’t me. It’s Jesus of Nazareth.

A verdict will be rendered by the judge. People will be vindicated and rewarded. People will be convicted and destroyed..

I am including case number 3, because not converting to Christian Faith (or any other religion) does not imply necessarily rejecting the essence of the gospel. It does not imply choosing evil or "the works of darkeness".

I recognize no faith as Christian that is not the Messiah’s own faith. Choosing his faith is choosing the work of light. Choosing any other faith is choosing the work of darkness.

There may be many circumstances in that person's mind, history or environment which lead him/her to not understanding or assessing correctly what is being presented. There are factors related to the preacher as well.

Jesus is the preacher. There are preachers who sound like Jesus and there are preachers who don’t. Jesus’ disciples hear and know his voice.

Gandhi is said to have declared "if all Christians behave as Christians, everybody would become Christian". So, a doctrinal truth accompanied with a bad example, nullifies the effect of any verbal teaching.

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“As much as you can, don’t let your disappointment with the people of God distort your view of the person of God.” - Michael Brown

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Ghandi‘s disappoint left him as an idolater.

Had I been alive at the time and able to speak with him, I would have told him this: Do not be deceived. Idolators will not inherit the kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 9:9) and urged him to repent.

 

[Matthias]

I cannot speak on behalf of universalists, obviously.
But speaking on my behalf, I don't think that people on ignorance are "on the easy street".
They face their own spiritual challenges, as we all do.
They know what is right, and the difficulties in being faithful to what is right.

They don’t all know what is right. They haven’t been properly instructed.

 

[amadeus]

Yes, my friend

In the parable of the talents, no one is left without a talent.
No man is deprived of the gifts of God, or the grace of God necessary to multiply those gifts. One of those gifts is the basic notion of good and evil (and sometimes, not so "basic". Pagan people could have very advanced notions of good and evil. Plato could have had a notion far advanced from a peasant Israelite of the same time period... or from some modern believers)

What does a man do with what he has? Americans are very spoiled and miss the Way too often, I believe, as a result of it. Our richness [Americans] is not only in money and physical goods, but also in availability of Bibles and access to computers and information and warm clothes and comfortable places to dwell and no real shortage of food to eat. If he calls himself a Christian, how does he compare with the average Haitian, who only has what we [Americans] would call rags, to wear and too often has not even one good filling and balanced meal every day?

You correctly spoke of the talents, but also consider this...

Mr 12:41	And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much.
Mr 12:42	And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing.
Mr 12:43	And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury:
Mr 12:44	For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living.

And then consider also what the cost should be..:

Mt 13:45	Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls:
Mt 13:46	Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.

And what Paul wrote here with regard to "reasonable service"...:

Ro 12:1

I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

 

[Matthias]

Thank you, @Matthias and @Wrangler, for your explanations.

I realize, based on Matthias response, that a person who is in ignorance about certain doctrines that Matthias considers essential for salvation, is in less danger than a person who was aware of such doctrines, but rejected them as a lie.

Those who worship the one God must worship him in truth. Those who don’t worship the one God in truth are worshipping an idol.

What is truth? Truth isn’t the words of Ghandi. Truth isn’t the words of Mohammad. Truth isn’t the words of Matthias. Truth is the words which the one God gave Jesus to speak; the words which the one God put into Jesus’ mouth to speak . Any doctrine which doesn’t align with the words of Jesus isn’t true.

Then, my question is why should you preach such doctrines to that person, if by doing that you are increasing his/her net risk of perdition?

That is what the one God sent Jesus to do and that is what Jesus sends his disciples to do.

When anyone is confronted with the doctrine / teaching of the one God the risk to the confronted one is great as is the reward. It is a matter of life or death importance. A choice has to be made.

Preaching should be an activity that decreases the risk of perdition of a person. Isn't that true?

No, it isn’t true. Preaching must confront those who are not disciples of Jesus. If SHURF happens then the person is saved. If SHURF doesn’t happen then the person perishes.

My personal position is that, every time you preach salvation, it should increase the net probability of that person being saved.
If your preaching does not do that, then there is something wrong with what you are preaching.

Your personal position is a non-Christian (Baha’i) position.

 

[Wrangler]

But if I were to prove that remaining ignorant about the danger of smoking gives you a risk to develop cancer of, say, 15%, while becoming aware increased your risk to 30%, then campaigns to quit smoking would be a very bad thing.

That’s a specious ‘if.’ One rationalization for it would be the more smoking is promoted, the more SOME people are attracted to it DUE TO some perversion of their ego. Can you think of another explanation?

I do not believe it is wise to develop a moral guide based on how the irrational exceptions might respond.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

It’s Jesus who is doing the preaching.

I agree, when the preaching reflects the character of Jesus, as a lamp illuminating the world.
But Jesus does not preach through all preachers. If a preacher preaches evil, that cannot be Jesus.
How can a preacher preach evil? Well, not only by words, but by example. Our lives are the content of our preaching.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name,... And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Why should the lady from Fiji feel encouraged to listen a sermon about the Bible, if she has noticed that the missionary who is inviting her to listen does that opposite of what is good?
If the salt of the earth have lost its savor, wherewith shall it be salted? It has become good for nothing, but to be cast out and trodden under foot of men.


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