Is heaven only for Christians? - That's convenient
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Dan Clarkston
Well-Known Member
It's certainly not for those that teach false doctrine... such as claiming there is not hell
Folks gonna have to get off the fence and go all in for the Lord!
soberxp
Well-Known Member
There are many possibilities.
1.There are only two people on the planet, Adam and Eve.
2. The Earth is full of human.
3. God went to another planet to make another Adam and Eve.(This is just bullshit.)
Even if a guy named Satan wants to sabotage God's plan.It seems to me that everything is still God's plan and arrangement.
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Dan Clarkston
Well-Known Member
soberxp
Well-Known Member
...............,Maybe I'm not using the right words,
Should be "crap" or "drivel" or "rambling"
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
You are clearly unaware that bovine excrement is no worse than a snakes and vipers expression. Of course if one wants to be offended and label another person, any fabricated reason will suit their purpose.
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
Its true some are more mature in Christ than are others .I think it was clear I was only talking about those in heaven, answering the question, will all those in heaven be "Christians". What I said...
Was not an apologetic for universalism, but let us not underestimate the grace of God. All those who will ultimately be saved will be so solely because of the blood of Christ, who gave Himself as the redemption price for the whole world. That does not mean the whole world will avail themselves of that generous and unearned gift. Not does it mean such salvation is reserved only for those who understand the gospel as we understand it. Remember, we are saved by faith, not knowledge. There will be many in heaven I believe who studied nature and concluded there is a Creator who is worthy of honour and obedience. They may never have darkened the portals of a church building, nor heard the name of Jesus.
“14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) 16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. ”
Romans 2:14-16 KJV
But mark my words if one fails to BELIEVE on JESUS the CHRIST ,
they did exactly as john said they did . They call GOD a liar . Thems goats no matter
how much lovey do they did .
Lambano
Well-Known Member
Oh, don't mind Clarkston. He just likes causing trouble. I see you are from China, and if English is not your native language, you may not know that certain English words are traditionally considered unacceptable in polite company.
Lambano
Well-Known Member
My favorite Tony Campolo quote (and he has a lot of them):
"I have three things I’d like to say today. First, while you were sleeping last night, 30,000 kids died of starvation or diseases related to malnutrition. Second, most of you don’t give a shit. What’s worse is that you’re more upset with the fact that I said 'shit' than the fact that 30,000 kids died last night."
soberxp
Well-Known Member
That's an interesting point.
- Where would the Fall of humankind be without the deceiving serpent?
- Where would the murder of Abel be without Cain?
- Where would the Exodus be without Joseph being sold into slavery by his brothers?
- Where would the fall of Jericho be without Rehab lying to the city guards?
- Where would the crucifixion be without the murderous religious leaders?
- Where would the betrayal of Christ be without Judas?
All of this was part of God's plan.
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Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
I like to see the big picture, otherwise we might be concentrating on a few dead pixels in just one corner and never see how the rest fits into that big picture.
Why did God put just two humans on this lovingly prepared planet? And why did he create them so differently? Adam was formed from the elements of the earth (which science confirms) but Eve was made from Adam’s rib, giving her a unique relationship to her husband.
I like the way 1 Cor 11:8-12 describes the marital relationship between man and woman.
Paul wrote....
“For man did not come from woman, but woman came from man. 9 And what is more, man was not created for the sake of the woman, but woman for the sake of the man. 10 That is why the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head, because of the angels.
11 Besides, in connection with the Lord, neither is woman separate from man nor is man separate from woman. 12 For just as the woman is from the man, so also the man is through the woman; but all things are from God.”
This arrangement is of God’s making...the man is incomplete without his mate and she is his “compliment”, or what makes him whole. They were created to be a team because there was a need for both in order for the mandate to “fill the earth” with their children to be carried out. This relationship is summed up in that last sentence “For just as the woman is from the man, so also the man is through the woman; but all things are from God.”
It is clear from the Genesis account that the earth was made for living creatures, and God provided an abundant supply of provisions......food, water and oxygen in endless quantity were there to maintain life, and for the first humans there was no natural cause of death mentioned to them. Death would only come if they sinned....and sin is what causes death. After the fall, humans were on the same level as animals…..they died and were to return to the dust as God told Adam.(Eccl 3:19-20; Gen 3:19)
They had access to the “tree of life” in order to keep living in mortal flesh. Death would only come about by the sin of disobedience.
So from the obvious deductions based on Genesis, we know that God made man “in his image and likeness”, meaning that humans could display God’s characteristics and make decisions concerning the responsibilities that he gave to man....that of caring for God’s creation on earth. He was to have all other living creatures “in subjection”, and to represent his Creator in looking after his creation on earth. What a wonderful assignment!
They were told to “fill the earth and subdue it”....bringing it under man’s control. With the garden of Eden as a blueprint, God wanted the humans to spread the boundaries of their paradise home until the whole earth was like the garden of Eden.
Imagine...no old age, no sickness or death to hinder our plans for the future.....an endless future filled with meaningful work and sharing with others what God has given us. What praise and honour will go to our Creator when his purpose for this earth and mankind upon it is finally fulfilled. (Isa 55:11)
Now this is an interesting point to throw in....
Did God know that an angel would become a slanderer and a resister by deceiving the woman into disobedience? God allows his children to exercise free will.....but he has parameters within which he allows them their freedom. Upon seeing the devil deceive the woman, and then her offering the forbidden fruit to her husband, God could have destroyed the rebels there and then....but slanderous accusations had been imputed to God’s character, that had to be addressed. As Universal Sovereign, he had to clear his name and reputation from these accusations, otherwise there was nothing to stop another angel from stepping into satan’s shoes.
God would use the rebellion as an opportunity to test out the human race...but more importantly, to also test out his angelic creation, who also had free will. Was it a mistake to give these powerful beings free will?
Humans could foul things up on earth, but angels could foul things up in heaven.
Once the issue of God’s Universal Sovereignty is finally settled and established, there will never again be grounds to question it.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
No need to apologise….if English is not your first language, let me congratulate you on your command of it.
You speak eloquently and with love in your heart, not judgment in your words. That is a welcome change.
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Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
I do not think God “planned” any of those things….but he did have contingencies for how he would deal with the choices made by those people. All of his reactions demonstrate something about God’s permission of wickedness and where it would finally lead us as survivors of this world under satan. (1 John 5:19)
If satan had not decided to rebel…maybe had second thoughts about his place in God’s heavenly arrangement….? What does that teach us about humbly accepting our lot in life?
If, in his sinful condition, Cain had not decided to ignore God’s warning concerning his jealousy over his brother‘s sacrifice….? There were consequences, but he was not put to death as he should have been for the crime of cold blooded murder. Under God’s law given to Israel, that was the penalty. What did we learn about jealousy and where it can lead us…?
If God had not allowed Joseph’s brothers to sell him into slavery, when murder was on their minds…?
His presence in Egypt as Prime Minister, at the time of a dreadful famine, saved his whole nation and gave us a magnificent example of forgiveness and repentance.
Rahab’s actions in saving the spies resulted in saving her whole family as a reward for putting her own Iife at risk for them….what does that teach us about courage and selflessness?
Since Christ had to be put to death in order to redeem mankind, it was prophesied hundreds of years in advance how it would happen. He would be betrayed by the hand of someone close to him. It’s not that God caused it, but foresaw it, and had it committed to Scripture as prophesy….part of the identification of the Messiah who fulfilled all that was written about him.
The religious leaders of the day were just following the traits that they had always demonstrated in their relationship to their God. The proud and arrogant Pharisees were interested only in their own agenda and Jesus did not come to elevate them, but to expose them for the hypocrites that they were. They hated him for that.
God really didn’t plan a lot after the fall in Eden, but simply responded to the choices of the free willed humans he created and steered things in the right direction for his will to be accomplished.
Because rulership of this world was handed over to Satan (Luke 4:5-7)…he was the driver in most of it, but God kept it all on track, until his work of redemption was completed….and the way was open to fulfilling the rest of his promises. (Rev 21:2-4) This then has left a written record of God’s dealings with mankind and how his will is always accomplished in the end. God is a rewarder of those who obey him.
Precedents are now set for all time to come, so that this situation can never happen again. Whatever plans God has for the future, they will go ahead unimpeded.
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Very poignant, unfortunately true for many.
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Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Sin and rebellion started in heaven. It was not God's plan. What else was God to do with Lucifer after he threatened to take over the government of heaven if not to give him the opportunity to first prove his rebellion and arguments were worthy? Where better to test his arguments with a race given the free will to reject or accept his lies and slander? One can't say that God has been unfair or arbitrary in His dealings with His arch enemy. What do you think? Has Lucifer's/Satan's method of rule been successful? Had he proved boss method better than his Creator's?
I don't know about some of those other incidents, but the crucifixion part of God's plan? Not so sure about whether that was necessary. Sure, the death and shedding of blood was necessary for atonement...
“22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. ”
Hebrews 9:22, 26 KJV
But was it God's plan that His Son be mocked, abused, humiliated, tortured, and crucified?
All those things, as negative as they be, are a critical part of they story.
The brutality of the created against the creator. The absolute horror.
Matthew 20:21-23 NIV
“What is it you want?” he asked.
She said, “Grant that one of these two sons of mine may sit at your right and the other at your left in your kingdom.”
22 “You don’t know what you are asking,” Jesus said to them. “Can you drink the cup I am going to drink?”
“We can,” they answered.
23 Jesus said to them, “You will indeed drink from my cup,
but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant.
These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared by my Father.”
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Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Certainly Jesus and the Father knew well beforehand what was to befall Jesus during His time here. Including the cross. Hence why it was prophecied by David and Isaiah and numerous others. Yes, they knew, and He came anyway. Such love!!! But that doesn't mean God planned it that way as if all Christ's opposition was directed and predestined from heaven. Foreknowledge does not mean robotic compliance from those I involved. Satan's and the people's hatred of Jesus was, despite being demon inspired, still freely exhibited revealing the true state of religion at that time. It will be no better when He returns.
Lambano
Well-Known Member
Was Isaiah 53 prophetic?
On another forum, I ran into some proponents of Open Theism, which holds that while God does have a plan, He is not able to know the future choices of creatures with free will with absolute certainty, so He has to wing it as we go. You meet all kinds on an internet forum.
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