Agree. And he has.
I'm guessing that you and I define this differently.
And I wouldn't call it a part of his character except as an aspect of restoration and redemption.
Pretty sure you don't see it that way.
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Is heaven only for Christians? - That's convenient
- Thread starter St. SteVen
- Start date
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And I wouldn't call it a part of his character except as an aspect of restoration and redemption.
Pretty sure you don't see it that way.
]
St. SteVen said:
So, you agree that heaven is not just for Christians?
Romans 2:14-16 NIV
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law,
they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts,
their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them
and at other times even defending them.)
16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets
through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
]
So, you agree that heaven is not just for Christians?
There's something to that, but what about non-Christians that meet God's requirements?
Romans 2:14-16 NIV
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law,
they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts,
their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them
and at other times even defending them.)
16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets
through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
]
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Good question......this would mean that these ones have not had contact with the truth or those who preach it. God holds no one accountable for ignorance unless it is deliberate ignorance...a refusal to listen.
We have to go back to precedents in the Bible to see this in action.....in the days before the flood, Noah was a “preacher of righteousness” (2 Pet 2:5) so the people back then had two powerful witnesses....Noah’s words and his actions in building an enormous structure out in the middle of a cleared field, probably taking many years to construct. So for all that time, the people were not without witness concerning the catastrophe that Noah had warned them about. But as Jesus said as a warning example.....
“For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 38 For as they were in those days before the Flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, 39 and they took no note until the Flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be.” (Matt 24:37-39)
There it is....do we also see an ancient precedent in Jesus day? He warned the Christians to flee Jerusalem and Judea to escape the coming destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans, and those who did not heed his warning perished in the most devastating attack on that city where all connection to the outside world was cut off, leaving those trapped under siege to starve to death.....resorting to even eating their own children. Can we imagine the regret......if they has just listened and obeyed in both scenarios.
Jesus sent his disciples out to preach his message which was two fold.....it was “good news” for those who heeded it and brought their lives into harmony with God’s requirements, but bad news for those who did not. The scripture you cited was about those who never got the good news, being judged by what is in their hearts.....it is not an ignorance of choice....do you see the difference?
This seems very controversial to me.
I wonder where this idea of Noah as a "preacher of righteousness" came from. The text in Genesis does not support the idea. And there were zero converts. ???
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Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Not everything Jesus taught is recorded in Scripture...just what we need to know, not necessarily what we want to know. Since Peter reported that Noah was “a preacher of righteousness” and the fact that God used the water canopy that was above the earth’s atmosphere, to flood the world at that time, we can see that he referred to Genesis there as well.
Well, yes. But there is no evidence in the Genesis text that this happened. Which makes me wonder where this idea came from. ????
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Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Sorry....no evidence that what happened? That Noah was a preacher of righteousness or that God used the water canopy to flood the earth?
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Since Jesus himself speaks about the situation in Noah’s day and compares it with the time of his return...you can take it to the bank.....Jesus was there as a witness to all of it. He said that they took no note of Noah’s warning and paid the price. It’s a similar situation with religions.....when the majority believe something, the masses jump on board because they assume that so many people can’t be wrong.....was that true in Noah’s day? How many people were saved through the flood? Zero converts. No one believed Noah because he looked like an idiot.....it had never rained before the flood, so Noah was actually telling them something was going to happen that had never happened before. The water canopy over the earth created a uniform moist climate in which all living things could thrive. (Gen 2:6) Earth had its own unique watering system. When the canopy was removed, it subjected the earth to enormous climate change. So where did the water go?
There are two opposite poles on this planet, both of which are magnetic. We know that water is influenced by the magnetic pull of the moon in determining the tides......so the magnetic pull of the poles drew the water to them and were snap frozen. Doesn’t that explain why there is concern that the polar ice caps are melting? The earth will again be flooded. Doesn’t that make sense?
Doesn’t it also make sense that increased radiation from the sun ages everything differently now? Doesn’t it explain the drastic reduction in human life spans after the flood? They went from hundreds of years in age down to the 70 or 80 that the Bible stated. (Psalm 90:10)
Stumpmaster
Well-Known Member
Stumpmaster
Well-Known Member
The Bible is full of lessons. I grew up with daily prayers, Bible readings, and lessons. That's how I know stuff about God's Character which includes His wrath. Some folks just plain refuse to accept any Biblical lessons, and trust in humanistic ideology to their destruction.
No wonder this happens:
Rev 15:1 Then I saw another great and marvelous sign in heaven: seven angels with the seven final plagues, with which the wrath of God is completed.
Rev 16:1 Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, “Go, pour out on the earth the seven bowls of God’s wrath.”
St. SteVen said:
Agree.
But does that mean that salvation is only for Christians?
Do you understand the difference between being saved and being Christian?
Christian? No.
Saved? Yes.
]
Agree.
But does that mean that salvation is only for Christians?
Do you understand the difference between being saved and being Christian?
Here's an example: A Christ-following Jew
Christian? No.
Saved? Yes.
]
Yes, "saved" is addressed in three different views. One might say it is not one single event - it is a lifetime process.
I think I have seen your trigger. Being obedient to God's commands is not a requirement in our walk with His Son?
St. SteVen said:
Source of salvation - works? - WRONG!
/
Source of salvation - works? - WRONG!
I'm saying it doesn't earn our salvation. We aren't saved by works. (lest one should boast)
/
MA2444
Well-Known Member
That's a good answer! I bet that our education continues after we get to heaven and are with the Lord. Except that, it occured to me that, time goes very much slower in heaven than on earth. So while we are on earth we are probably able to learn much more much faster than in heaven. I'm not being dogmatic, but I suspect this
If two guys went to heaven and one of them had been monk like and studied the scriptures his entire life. How will his spirit arrive in heaven? Shining brightly I suppose.
Now the 2nd guy never did study the bible but was engrossed in the world his entire life and accepted Jesus on his death bed. Will his spirit shine as brightly in heaven as the first man? How could it?
The state of a persons soul when they enter heaven will probably determine his position in heaven and perhaps how fast they are able to learn? I duno for sure, but revelation does talk about, the healing of the nations in heaven. Through the leaves of the tree of life? I think that's right. So what will need healed in heaven that takes time? The state of a mans soul.
Or, I could be wrong. But somehow, I dont think so. If we have the capacity to learn more faster on earth than we do in heaven (given the state of a persons soul upon entering) Then that would suggest that no wonder Jesus has been saying soon and, the time is short because in the long run of being eternal beings our time on earth, it is late and we are almost out of time. even when spoken 2000 years ago!
Now way that Billy Bob the drug addict who accepted Jesus on his death bed is going to step into heaven as smart as Paul, or Moses. That seems clear.
Does that make sense?
Yes, our works don't buy our salvation, but the lack of them demonstrate the wrong path that we may be on.
I speculate that there "may" be a pathway for some, not all, who died in ignorance to go to heaven, but I don't know what I don't know. And I wouldn't call it merit, but grace. God isn't fair, but he is just. We can only trust that he deals with everyone justly.
Of course, because our choices on this earth will determine our eternal destination, whether we've heard the gospel or not.
Yes, because even if there is grace or mercy invovled, there is still no getting into heaven without Jesus' atonement. That was true even for the Old Testament saints prior to the cross.
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