Is baptismal regeneration…

[amigo de christo]

acts 9:4 eph 5:32 Christ and his church are one! The only ark of salvation

Christ and HIS CHURCH are ONE . the key words being HIS CHURCH . The CC has long ago abandoned HIM

 

[BreadOfLife]

What is with the parentheses? The word "catholic" doesn't appear in the Bible. You are distorting Scripture!!!

Uhhhh, not so fast . . .
Acts 9:31 talks about how the Early Church grew throughout the region. The language used here describes the Catholic Church:
“Then the church throughout Judea, Galilee, and Samaria experienced peace and thus was strengthened. Living in the fear of the Lord and in the encouragement of the Holy Spirit, the church increased in numbers.”

Here is the phrase in Greek:
η μεν ουν εκκλησια καθ ολης της ιουδαιας

The Catholic Church gets its name from the GREEK for “according to the whole” and “universal” - εκκλησια καθ ολης, which is pronounced “katah-holos”.

Εκκλησια (ekklesia) - A gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly; CHURCH
καθ (katah) - Through out, according to
ολης (holos) - All, whole, completely
"ekklesia Kata-holos" = CATHOLIC CHURCH.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Christ and HIS CHURCH are ONE . the key words being HIS CHURCH . The CC has long ago abandoned HIM

ONLY if you believe that Jesus is a LIAR.
We know that He's NOT - too bad YOU don't.

He guaranteed that His Church would never succumb to the gates of Hell (Matt. 16:18).
YOU chose to follow the traditions of MEN in the 16th century instead of His Church.

 

[BreadOfLife]

You don't understand the difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant? Circumcision is a rite performed under the Old Covenant, but it has no real value. 1 Corinthians 7:19, "Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Instead, keeping God’s commandments is what counts." NET

Here is what the Bible says about true circumcision: Romans 2:28-29, "For a person is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision something that is outward in the flesh, but someone is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is of the heart by the Spirit and not by the letter. This person’s praise is not from people but from God." NET

And just like your evasive friend @amigo de christo - you're DODGING the questions and MOVING the goalposts.
WHY is it that you guys can't answer this question??

If 8-day-old babies could enter a COVENANT with God through the guidance and faith of their parents – then WHY can’t a baby enter the NEW Covenant through the guidance and faith of their parents??

If you can’t answer this – then MOVE ASIDE and let somebody else give it a shot.

 

[theefaith]

What is with the parentheses? The word "catholic" doesn't appear in the Bible. You are distorting Scripture!!!

only that there is only one faith (catholic) eph 4:5 the deposit of faith Jude 1:3

Truth must be revealed by God, and in its fullness in the sacred deposit of faith by Christ to his church! Eph 4:5 Jude 1:3 and must be taught by the church, or proposed for our belief by the apostles!
Matt 28:19-20 Lk 1:4 Jn 20:21 acts 8:31 Rom 1:5 col 2:7 1 Tim 3:15
matt 18:17

Christ and His church are one! acts 9:4 Acts 5:32 Jn 15:1-5

Truth is immutable! Cannot change!

And same truths revealed by Christ and taught by the church are always believed and taught from the beginning when Christ taught his church in person! Jude 1:3 the faith once delivered to the saints or the deposit of faith eph 4:5 one faith!


Truth must be revealed by God thru Christ to His church (the apostles Jude 1:3) then must be proposed by the church, (Matt 28:19 gal 3:23) without error by the Holy Spirit! (Jn 16:13)

The evidence of true faith is humble subjection and obedience to Christ & His holy church!

The rule of faith for Christians is Jesus Christ Jn 14:6 and His church! Matt 18:17 acts 2:42 1 Tim 3:15

True Christians cannot listen to the errors of excommunicated heretics, but we listen faithfully to Christ, in the bosom of holy mother church, the only ark of salvation!
1 pet 3:20-21 matt 18:17 matt 16:18-19 matt 28:19-20 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-23

Truth must be revealed by God thru Christ to His church (the apostles Jude 1:3) then must be proposed by the church, (Matt 28:19 gal 3:23) without error by the Holy Spirit! (Jn 16:13)

Christ and His church are one! (Acts 9:4 eph 5:31 Jn 15:1-5)

Rejection of the one true church or its teaching is rejection of Christ and God!

Christ and His church are one! Acts 9:4 eph 5:32 Jn 8:12 & Matt 5:14

 

[theefaith]

Christ and HIS CHURCH are ONE . the key words being HIS CHURCH . The CC has long ago abandoned HIM

Then who has the keys of jurisdictional authority? Matt 16:17-19

 

[Saint of God]

Can you show me where the Bible says that one must be a “disciplined follower: in order to be Baptized?
Chapter and Verse, please.

Where did I make that claim? You are asking me to show you something that I never claimed .

While you’re at it – you might want to consider that 8-day-old baby boys entered into the Covenant with God in the OT through circumcision.

Genesis 17:12
And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.
It does not say babies are entering a covenant with God...

A “Covenant” by definition is a sacred agreement between TWO or more parties. AND - can you show me where it is "forbidden" in the NT?

Actually the parents are the ones who are keeping the covenant with God by circumcising the males.
1Cor 7
18 Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised.
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
20 Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.

Soooooo, if an 8-day-old baby can enter a Covenant with God through the guidance and faith of his parents – can you explain how an infant CANNOT enter the New Covenant through Baptism in the same way?

An eight-day-old baby cannot enter into any covenant sir. Are you daft? In any case that is part of the old covenant. The new covenant is circumcision of the heart.
Romans 2:29
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Acts 2:38-39
And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. FOR THE PROMISE IS FOR YOU AND FOR YOUR CHILDREN and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.”

It does not say, babies. Can a baby repent?

 

[Saint of God]

Hello,

Where does Scripture say that a disciple is a disciplined follower?

I never said the scripture says that a disciple is a disciplined follower. I said that a disciple is a disciplined follower... Were the disciples of Jesus disciplined followers? Yes or No?

Hello,
We get the word disciple from the Latin word discipulus and discipulus does NOT mean "disciplined follower".....that is why I asked that question!

Hello! the scripture was not originally written in Latin... The Greek says and the Hebrew says

 

[Saint of God]

Nice TRY – but you are deflecting from the question because you CANNOT answer it.

I didn’t ask about what Paul taught about circumcision centuries after its institution.
I asked a SIMPLE question:
If 8-day-old babies could enter a COVENANT with God through the guidance and faith of their parents – then WHY can’t a baby enter the NEW Covenant through the guidance and faith of their parents??
If you can’t answer this – then MOVE ASIDE and let somebody else give it a shot.

The question is bogus...8 days old babies cannot enter into any circumcision covenant, and neither can babies repent to be baptized. You should move aside and stop posting foolishness.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Where did I make that claim? You are asking me to show you something that I never claimed .

In post #19 - YOU made the following statement:
“More of your lies. A disciple is a disciplined follower. Catholics baptize babies, are babies disciples?”
Sooooo, WHY did you make this statement if NOT to show that only “disciplined followers” get Baptized?
So, I asked you to show me where the BIBLE says that those being Baptized must be “disciplined followers”.

Genesis 17:12
And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.
It does not say babies are entering a covenant with God...

WRONG.

In Judaism, a circumcision rite is called a “brit” which is short for “brit milah”, which means, "COVENANT of circumcision"..

Gen 17:9-14
Then God said to Abraham, “As for you, you must keep my COVENANT, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come. This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the COVENANT you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the COVENANT between me and you. For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner—those who are not your offspring. Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. MY COVENANT IN YOUR FLESH is to be an everlasting covenant. Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my COVENANT.”

Actually the parents are the ones who are keeping the covenant with God by circumcising the males.
1Cor 7
18 Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised.
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
20 Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.

You’re deflecting - just like your buddy did.
I didn’t ask you WHAT circumcision was. I asked you to show me WHY a baby could enbter a Covenant in the OT – but NOT the NT.

An eight-day-old baby cannot enter into any covenant sir. Are you daft? In any case that is part of the old covenant. The new covenant is circumcision of the heart.
Romans 2:29
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
It does not say, babies. Can a baby repent?

An eight-day-old baby CANNOT enter into a Covenant WITHOUT his parents.
And NEITHER can a baby repent and be Baptized WUTHOUT his parents.
God never commanded the babies to be circumcised. He commanded it of their PARENTS (Gen 17:9-14).
Peter never preached to the babies to get Baptized. He preached to the PARENTS and told them that the promise was for them ANF THEIR CHILDREN (Acts 2:38-39).

 

[BreadOfLife]

The question is bogus...8 days old babies cannot enter into any circumcision covenant, and neither can babies repent to be baptized. You should move aside and stop posting foolishness.

Just as I thought – you CAN’T answer the question.
Perhaps, you should step aside and let somebody else give it a shot . . .

 

[theefaith]

Where did I make that claim? You are asking me to show you something that I never claimed .

Genesis 17:12
And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.
It does not say babies are entering a covenant with God...

Actually the parents are the ones who are keeping the covenant with God by circumcising the males.
1Cor 7
18 Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised.
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
20 Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.

An eight-day-old baby cannot enter into any covenant sir. Are you daft? In any case that is part of the old covenant. The new covenant is circumcision of the heart.
Romans 2:29
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

It does not say, babies. Can a baby repent?

Acts 16:15 entire household baptized!

where does it say except infants?

And parents in the new covenant are keeping it in their promise to raise and educate their children in the fear of the Lord in the faith and virtues of Jesus Christ only to be confirmed (another sacrament) when they come of age!

 

[Saint of God]

Just as I thought – you CAN’T answer the question.
Perhaps, you should step aside and let somebody else give it a shot . . .

I answered the question...A baby cannot enter into a covenant. You are just being silly. God commanded the parents to circumcise the male children. He did not command the babies to be circumcised.

 

[Saint of God]

Acts 16:15 entire household baptized!

where does it say except infants?

And parents in the new covenant are keeping it in their promise to raise and educate their children in the fear of the Lord in the faith and virtues of Jesus Christ only to be confirmed (another sacrament) when they come of age!

There are no babies mentioned in the passage. And even if there were babies, we know that cannot repent. You are being willfully ignorant.

 

[Saint of God]

In post #19 - YOU made the following statement:
“More of your lies. A disciple is a disciplined follower. Catholics baptize babies, are babies disciples?”
Sooooo, WHY did you make this statement if NOT to show that only “disciplined followers” get Baptized?
So, I asked you to show me where the BIBLE says that those being Baptized must be “disciplined followers”.

WRONG.

You are wrong , you are claiming that I am trying to show that only “disciplined followers” get Baptized. I never made that claim.
My position is the command is to repent and be baptized. Babies cannot repent. Ask yourself this question, if a man does not repent will God accept his baptism?
Luke 13:5
I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

In Judaism, a circumcision rite is called a “brit” which is short for “brit milah”, which means, "COVENANT of circumcision"..

Who cares? That is the old covenant it is not applicable. Heb 8:
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Gen 17:9-14
Then God said to Abraham, “As for you, you must keep my COVENANT, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come. This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the COVENANT you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the COVENANT between me and you. For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner—those who are not your offspring. Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. MY COVENANT IN YOUR FLESH is to be an everlasting covenant. Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my COVENANT.”

Yes the covenant is with the parents to circumcise themselves and their male children. There is no covenant with the babies.

You’re deflecting - just like your buddy did.
I didn’t ask you WHAT circumcision was. I asked you to show me WHY a baby could enbter a Covenant in the OT – but NOT the NT.

I am telling you that a baby cannot enter into a covenant. Are you hard of hearing? In a covenant, both parties must agree. What can an 8-day-old baby agree to?

An eight-day-old baby CANNOT enter into a Covenant WITHOUT his parents.

With or without parents a baby cannot enter into a covenant because an 8-day-old baby cannot agree or disagree.

And NEITHER can a baby repent and be Baptized WUTHOUT his parents.

With or without parents a baby cannot repent.
You are amazing. One person cannot be this silly. You must be a conjoined twin.

God never commanded the babies to be circumcised. He commanded it of their PARENTS (Gen 17:9-14).

Therefore the babies did not agree to be circumcised, so there is no covenant with the babies.

Peter

never preached to the babies to get Baptized. He preached to the PARENTS and told them that the promise was for them ANF THEIR CHILDREN (Acts 2:38-39).

He preached to the parents and said repent and be baptized...and they will receive the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost is the promise. Their children have to also repent and be baptized to receive the promise. Peter did not say baptize babies.
You should change your name to breadofdeath...

 

[Saint of God]

Uhhhh, not so fast . . .
Acts 9:31 talks about how the Early Church grew throughout the region. The language used here describes the Catholic Church:
“Then the church throughout Judea, Galilee, and Samaria experienced peace and thus was strengthened. Living in the fear of the Lord and in the encouragement of the Holy Spirit, the church increased in numbers.”

Here is the phrase in Greek:
η μεν ουν εκκλησια καθ ολης της ιουδαιας

The Catholic Church gets its name from the GREEK for “according to the whole” and “universal” - εκκλησια καθ ολης, which is pronounced “katah-holos”.

Εκκλησια (ekklesia) - A gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly; CHURCH
καθ (katah) - Through out, according to
ολης (holos) - All, whole, completely
"ekklesia Kata-holos" = CATHOLIC CHURCH.

That is not referring to what you call the Catholic Church... Jude did refer to your people in his epistle Jude 3...
3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

 

[BreadOfLife]

You are wrong , you are claiming that I am trying to show that only “disciplined followers” get Baptized. I never made that claim.

My position is the command is to repent and be baptized. Babies cannot repent. Ask yourself this question, if a man does not repent will God accept his baptism?

Luke 13
I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Who cares? That is the old covenant it is not applicable. Heb 8:
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Yes the covenant is with the parents to circumcise themselves and their male children. There is no covenant with the babies.

I am telling you that a baby cannot enter into a covenant. Are you hard of hearing? In a covenant, both parties must agree. What can an 8-day-old baby agree to?

With or without parents a baby cannot enter into a covenant because an 8-day-old baby cannot agree or disagree.

With or without parents a baby cannot repent.
You are amazing. One person cannot be this silly. You must be a conjoined twin.

Therefore the babies did not agree to be circumcised, so there is no covenant with the babies.

He preached to the parents and said repent and be baptized...and they will receive the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost is the promise. Their children have to also repent and be baptized to receive the promise. Peter did not say baptize babies.

You should change your name to breadofdeath...

You are DEFLECTING again.

I never asked you about whether circumcision is necessary in the New Covenant. YOU are bringing this up because you CANNOT answer the question.
ONE more time:
HOW can a baby enter into a Covenant with God in the OT – but according to YOU – a baby CANNOT enter into a Covenant with God in the NNT??

In the OT, it was based on the faith and guidance of the PARENTS.
In the NT, Peter told the crowd that the promises of Baptism were for their CHILDREN as well (Acts 2:39). You guys keep dancing around this issue by showing how circumcision is no longer necessary. That is NOT the point.

The Early Church UNANIMOUSLY testified to the fact that this was an Oral Tradition (2 Thess. 2:15) passed down to them by the Apostles.
2 Thess. 2:15
Therefore, stand firm brethren and hold fast to the traditions you were taught - EITHER BY an Oral Statement OR BY a Letter from us.

And before you condemn ALL Tradition - don’t forget – the very Canon of Scripture that YOU adhere to is a Catholic Tradition.

The fact that YOU keep claiming that it is NOT possible for a child to enter into a Covenant with God shows me your complete ignorance of the Bible and the OT Covenant.
EVERYBODY in the Covenant had to abide by the Law.
- Did the 8-day-old babies have to abide by the Law?
- Did they have to fast and abide by all of the cleanliness rituals?
- Did they have to offer a sacrifice for atonement?

Only a FOOL would believe this – and only a FOOL would NOT understand that a baby in the NEW Covenant is not held to the same standards as an adult.

 

[theefaith]

I answered the question...A baby cannot enter into a covenant. You are just being silly. God commanded the parents to circumcise the male children. He did not command the babies to be circumcised.

Lk 2:10-11 all men
Jn 1:29 all men
It does not say except infants???

 

[theefaith]

There are no babies mentioned in the passage. And even if there were babies, we know that cannot repent. You are being willfully ignorant.

why do they need to repent if they have no personal sin to repent of?

 

[Truther]

why do they need to repent if they have no personal sin to repent of?

The RCC does the repenting of the babies for them as they cry during baptism

The priest thinks they are repenting as he douses them in cold water, which causes them to burst into tears.