Is 1 Thes 4:17 the same event as Rev 1:7 and Matt 24:27?
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101G
Well-Known Member
Jesus returns twice, once FOR his saints and again WITH his saints. The first time he does not touch the ground, only calling his saints to meet him in the air. The second time he touches down on the Mount Of Olives, which splits east to west. Those who know the prophecy can run into the split and be saved.
Zechariah 14:1-5
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
The Revelation To St. John describes the period between the two events, so it only applies to Jews and unsaved gentiles. Christians will be attending the wedding supper of the lamb during that time.
Revelation 1:4 King James Version (KJV)
4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
All the named churches are Jewish synagogues. Every synagogue had a mail clerk called "the messenger", Greek angelos, and that is why it says to write to the angel of the church. The book contains many Jewish expressions; that is why goyim can't understand it.
Zechariah 14:1-5
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
The Revelation To St. John describes the period between the two events, so it only applies to Jews and unsaved gentiles. Christians will be attending the wedding supper of the lamb during that time.
Revelation 1:4 King James Version (KJV)
4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
All the named churches are Jewish synagogues. Every synagogue had a mail clerk called "the messenger", Greek angelos, and that is why it says to write to the angel of the church. The book contains many Jewish expressions; that is why goyim can't understand it.
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101G
Well-Known Member
our Lord and saviour return is two fold. but only in apperance once. his first return in his two fold return is in Spirit. that happen on the day of Pentecost. which is an unseen return in Spirit. but his second RETURN in appearance for all the world to see. hence rev 1:7
supportive scripture, Hebrews 9:28 "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation".
his first "APPERANCE" was in Natural flesh with blood. hence condemning sin in that flesh, but resurrected without the sinful nature/body to "APPEAR" yet once more at the end, the Judgment. supportive scripture, 1 Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1 Thessalonians 4:15 "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord".
what, or who the Lord Jesus bring with him is the spirits that are of the dead saints. for the spirit at death returns to the one who give it, God (see Ecclesiastes 3:21).
so there is only one Phyical return. but two resurrection. see Revelation 20:5 & 6. for there are two resurrection during his parousia
PICJAG.
supportive scripture, Hebrews 9:28 "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation".
his first "APPERANCE" was in Natural flesh with blood. hence condemning sin in that flesh, but resurrected without the sinful nature/body to "APPEAR" yet once more at the end, the Judgment. supportive scripture, 1 Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1 Thessalonians 4:15 "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord".
what, or who the Lord Jesus bring with him is the spirits that are of the dead saints. for the spirit at death returns to the one who give it, God (see Ecclesiastes 3:21).
so there is only one Phyical return. but two resurrection. see Revelation 20:5 & 6. for there are two resurrection during his parousia
PICJAG.
Jon Mathews
Active Member
No they are not the same. 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is the rapture. Revelation 1:7 and Matthew 24:27 is the 2nd coming.
101G
Well-Known Member
Jon Mathews
Active Member
No, it's not. When Christ returns for just His people first, it's the "Rapture". When Christ returns WITH His people and actually touches down on the mount of Olives and rules for 1,000 years on earth, that is the 2nd coming. If you read ALL the "Day of the Lord" scriptures, you will see the pattern that they fit into 2 buckets..... the secret "Rapture" of saints only, and the public and predictable "2nd Coming". You can only see the difference between the 2 when you read ALL the "Day of the Lord" scriptures together. Then you will see there are 2 "returns"..... 1 sudden/secret/private return for God's People where Jesus does NOT touch down and rule on Earth, and a 2nd public/visible/predictable return where Christ actually touches down and remains on the Earth for 1,000 years. The first is the "Rapture" and the 2nd is what I'm calling the "2nd Coming".
101G
Well-Known Member
Jon Mathews
Active Member
1) At the rapture, believers meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At the second coming, believers return with the Lord to the earth (Revelation 19:14).
2) The second coming occurs after the great and terrible tribulation (Revelation chapters 6–19). The rapture occurs before the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).
3) The rapture is the removal of believers from the earth as an act of deliverance (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, 1 Thessalonians 5:9). The second coming includes the removal of unbelievers as an act of judgment (Matthew 24:40-41).
4) The rapture will be secret and instant (1 Corinthians 15:50-54). The second coming will be visible to all (Revelation 1:7; Matthew 24:29-30).
5) The second coming of Christ will not occur until after certain other end-times events take place (2 Thessalonians 2:4; Matthew 24:15-30; Revelation chapters 6–18). The rapture is imminent; it could take place at any moment (Titus 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:50-54).
101G
Well-Known Member
ERROR on your part. here's why. 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 is his second return, and it eliminates Rev 19:14 as returning saints to the earth. for in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 the dead saints are now just being raised. unless there are another set of Saints. in which there would be 3 resurrections and that want fly. so right there, we don't have to go any futher, your assessment falls apart.
think about it. if the saint was raised from the dead in here 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17, and the apostle said in 1 Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night". a thief don't shout, meaning to let you know he has come to steal. but in .1 Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first". if the Lord Jesus is shouting then he not coming as a theif. for a theif is quiet. back in 1 Thessalonians 5:9 "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,1 Thessalonians 5:10 "Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
now to be sure of this, the apostle Peter. 2 Peter 3:10 "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up".
well hate to tell you, that's the same event in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 and 1 Thessalonians 5:2
.so there is one physical return, and no seceret rapture. sorry
PICJAG.
Jon Mathews
Active Member
ERROR on your part. here's why. 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 is his second return, and it eliminates Rev 19:14 as returning saints to the earth. for in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 the dead saints are now just being raised. unless there are another set of Saints. in which there would be 3 resurrections and that want fly. so right there, we don't have to go any futher, your assessment falls apart.
think about it. if the saint was raised from the dead in here 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17, and the apostle said in 1 Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night". a thief don't shout, meaning to let you know he has come to steal. but in .1 Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first". if the Lord Jesus is shouting then he not coming as a theif. for a theif is quiet. back in 1 Thessalonians 5:9 "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,1 Thessalonians 5:10 "Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
now to be sure of this, the apostle Peter. 2 Peter 3:10 "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up".
well hate to tell you, that's the same event in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 and 1 Thessalonians 5:2
so there is one physical return, and no seceret rapture. sorry
PICJAG.
Enoch and Elijah have already experienced the secret rapture.
Davy
Well-Known Member
Yes, they are all the same event of Christ's coming to gather His Church and end this present world time.
But the Great White Throne Judgment is not until after Jesus reigns on earth for a "thousand years" with His elect of the "first resurrection", per Revelation 20. Apostle Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15 that Jesus must reign, until all enemies are put under His feet. All knees must bow to Him as Lord.
The Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 link to 1 Thessalonians 4 is often missed because many do not really understand 1 Thess.4 involving the gathering of the Church at Christ's coming. In the Matt.24 example, the asleep saints are being gathered in Heaven. But in the Mark 13 version the saints still alive on earth are being gathered. This is the same gathering event Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thess.4. Thus the signs Jesus was giving there in upon the Mount of Olives were the signs of the very end leading up to His coming and the end of this world.
101G
Well-Known Member
again another ERROR on your part. Enoch died, supportive scripture, the Book of Hebrews, the Faith chapter 11. starting with verse 1 it give all those saint who died in Faith. even Enoch, listen. Hebrews 11:5 "By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God". seems like Enoch didn't die right well let's see. keep on reading to Hebrews 11:13 "These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of [them], and embraced [them], and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth".
so what do "translate" mean? let's see, it is here the Greek word,
G3346 μετατίθημι metatithemi (me-ta-tiy'-thee-miy) v.
1. to transfer.
2. (literally) to transport.
3. (by implication) to exchange.
4. (reflexively) to change sides.
5. (figuratively) to pervert.
[from G3326 and G5087]
KJV: carry over, change, remove, translate, turn
Root(s): G3326, G5087
notice definition #2. God transported him to keep him from being killed. just as was with Elijah who on many occasions was transported, or translate from one point of the planet to another part, or location on the planet. neither one left this planet.
if one read 2 Kings 2 one will see that men search for Elijah and found him not. because this was not the first time this had happen and this is not a only, or few event. we see in the NT of transporting, supportive scripture, the evangelist Philip. aftering baptizing the Ethiopian Eunuch, Acts 8:39 "And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
Acts 8:40 "But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.
here the words "caught away", is the Greek word,
G726 ἁρπάζω harpazo (har-pa'-zō) v.
to seize.
{in various applications}
[from a derivative of G138]
KJV: catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force)
harpazo is the same term people use in the "Rapture", as in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord".
now question, was Philip G726 ἁρπάζω harpazo ... YES, but did he go to heaven, meaning leave the planet? ....... NO. see as in Elijah case, heaven don't mean the 3rd heaven, he was taken up into the atmosphere which is the "FIRST" heaven.
so no, neither went anywhere, and both died natural deaths.
lastly before it come up, what about Elijah and Moses on the mount of transfiguration, one word .... "VISION".
hope this helped
PICJAG.
Nondenom40
Active Member
Sorry, but youre bouncing between two different events. The rapture and the day of the Lord are two different things. Another poster already gave a few differences between the two, there are more. In one event we meet Jesus in the clouds, then He takes us home to heaven. In the other He physically touches the earth. The rapture has no judgement, the 2nd coming He judges the earth. The rapture involves just the church...the dead in Christ and those alive. The 2nd coming judges all the earth. Theres more but you get the idea.ERROR on your part. here's why. 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 is his second return, and it eliminates Rev 19:14 as returning saints to the earth. for in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 the dead saints are now just being raised. unless there are another set of Saints. in which there would be 3 resurrections and that want fly. so right there, we don't have to go any futher, your assessment falls apart.
think about it. if the saint was raised from the dead in here 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17, and the apostle said in 1 Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night". a thief don't shout, meaning to let you know he has come to steal. but in .1 Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first". if the Lord Jesus is shouting then he not coming as a theif. for a theif is quiet. back in 1 Thessalonians 5:9 "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,1 Thessalonians 5:10 "Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
now to be sure of this, the apostle Peter. 2 Peter 3:10 "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up".
well hate to tell you, that's the same event in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 and 1 Thessalonians 5:2
so there is one physical return, and no seceret rapture. sorry
PICJAG.
101G
Well-Known Member
there is not rapture before the warth of the Lamb. where is the verse that saids he takes us to heaven. book chapter and verse please.
PICJAG.
PICJAG.
Davy
Well-Known Member
You are the one in need of correction friend. The day of "sudden destruction" upon the wicked and day of Christ's return to gather His Church are both at the same time of the end, which is on the "day of the Lord".
In Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27, is the event of 1 Thess.4:13-17. In the example of Matt.24, it's the gathering of the asleep saints Jesus brings with Him when He comes, for the saints are gathered from one end of heaven to the other there. But in the Mark 13 gathering example, it's about the saints still alive on earth being gathered (your so-called rapture). The pre-trib school teaches against Christ's Messages on the Mount of Olives in those Chapters. It's because those Scriptures go against their pre-trib rapture doctrine, proves their doctrine is phony. Jesus taught in His Olivet discourse the same gathering of the Church doctrine that Apostle Paul did in 1 Thess.4.
The gathering event is about our Lord Jesus' return to this earth, with the 'asleep' saints that have already died in Christ. Paul said in 1 Thess.4:13-14 that Jesus will bring those with Him when He comes. On the way to earth... Jesus then gathers His Church that's still alive on earth, and that is what the change at the twinkling of an eye that Apostle Paul taught is about. The saints on earth will be changed to the "spiritual body" at that moment, and then caught up with Jesus on His way to Jerusalem. Apostle Paul didn't need to teach us about 'where' our Lord Jesus was descending from Heaven to. It was already taught in the Zechariah 14 Scripture, and it is emphatic that Jesus' feet will touch down upon the Mount of Olives, on earth, with all His saints. That... is where His faithful Church is going when He comes.
Hidden In Him
Well-Known Member
Hey, buddy buddy! : )
Not sure where you were going with this, but yes, all three are referring to the exact same event; the rapture of the church. In 1 Thessalonians 4:17 this is obvious. In the other two it can be proven out from the context. Revelation 1:7 reads,
Behold, he comes with the clouds; and every eye shall see him, and those which pierced him. And all kindreds of the earth shall wail on account of Him. Even so, Amen.
The Lord was simply repeating here what He said in Matthew 24:30-31, where He stated:
Then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in the heaven, and all the kindreds of the land shall wail, and they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He shall send in His angels with the sound of a great trumpet, and they shall gather the elect from the four winds...
While this latter text is clearly about the rapture of the church, the exact same words are used in Greek as in Revelation 1:7:
καὶ τότε κόψονται πᾶσαι αἱ φυλαὶ (Matthew 24:30)
καὶ κόψονται ἐπ' αὐτὸν πᾶσαι αἱ φυλαὶ (Revelation 1:7)
This makes the two passages about the same thing.
As for Matthew 24:27, it is therefore about the rapture of the church as well, since that is what the surrounding context is discussing.
Hope that helped. Not sure what you were arguing for, but maybe you can tell me.
Yours,
Hidden
Two different events, or at least two, thoroughly distinct stages of a great event incorporating quite different aspects developments for different people. Clearly, the Matthew 24 event refers to a unique future event on earth. Whereas the Rapture of the church is in the air, and does not relate directly to Israel or to the judgment of the nations.
They are not the same. 1 thes 4 is about the second coming of Christ. Mt 24 and Rev are about the coming of Christ in judgement on the jewish nation with the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in AD 70. There are numerous “comings” of Christ in the Bible. We’ve had his “coming” to earth in his first advent. We have had his “coming” in judgement on the Jews in AD 70. The next and last coming is his final return and judgement.
Short answer: NO.
Only for some who labor under delusions.
The question to ask here is "Why do some Christians prefer delusions to reality"? God has given us His blueprint for (a) the Church, (b) Israel, and (c) the unbelieving and ungodly world. All we need to do is study the Bible.
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