Imputation is based on the Old Testament

[VictoryinJesus]

Gen. 15:6 "And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness."

What kind of righteousness was that? It was human righteousness. Abraham grasped that God could do anything...like a child would. He did what was possible for men to do in their own strength.

“he did what was possible for men to do in their own strength”

I’m not debating or arguing but I do have a question concerning “in their own strength” which “in their own strength” makes me think of “in their own image”.

What is possible for men to do in their own image?

The question is concerning “My thoughts and My ways are higher than your own”…This is the question Who told Abram in
Genesis 15:11 to drive the fowls away? And when the fowls came down upon the carcases, Abram drove them away.

Who told Abraham to take his son Issac to the mountain top to offer Issac as a sacrifice? The reason I asked this question is because did Abraham have the wisdom enough to prophetically give “an image” in “his own” of what would come to pass in Jesus Christ “the express image of the Father”?

Another that comes to mind is the woman with the alabaster box, the precious ointment they all squabble should have been sold to feed the poor. Jesus Christ said what she did would be for an remembrance. Who told the woman what was to come to pass? Who told legion “I am many” to come running and to bow before Him, when others were baffled over “who is He?” That is the question…can we by our own strength hear and see?

Consider today how it is debated what is prophetic in nature. Is it false or true? Consider all the things men say will come to pass…this year, or on this day and then it doesn’t come to pass. What Abraham did, God brought to come to pass in Jesus Christ. Does that speak of Faith made righteousness through Christ? What the woman with the alabaster box did…God brought to come to pass in “leave this woman alone; she prepares me for my death and burial”. Why was their prophetic “OT”: taking Issac to the mountain top where a ram was caught in the thicket, or the anointing of Jesus by the woman …proven true but some prophetic spoken today doesn’t come to pass? Can men by their own strength tell what will come to pass?

 

[Episkopos]

Oh well, if there is hope, maybe I'll try one last time. :) Is there any point though? You are just not willing to consider the possibility that you may be wrong about the definition and useage of the word impute. It's like a stronghold with you.

My answer to @Lizbeth
In my time of warring for the truth, I have assailed this fortress many times. And with some success. What I'm fighting against is a spiritual stronghold that imprisons believers in half-truths and lies. So yes, as Paul said, I am tearing down spiritual strongholds.

A person may be 'correct' or 'incorrect' in what they are imputing to another. They are still imputing it regardless.

But the bible is not incorrect....people are, by imputing wrongly. Also. God doesn't lie.

When God is doing the imputing, well He is God and what He says (ordains) goes. He can call those things that be not as though they are.....that is not lying, but there is power in the tongue, in His word, to fulfill what He is calling/saying.

Championing a lie is frowned upon by God. It is prophesied that many will turn to lies and fables. You are simply not seeing (at this time) the depth of the great delusion. God would NEVER impute something that goes against a truthful state.

People lie and invent things. God doesn't do this. He creates with power and reality. This whole imputation thing is a rebellion of unbelief against the power of grace...that actually transforms people into a holy walk above sin.

In your scheme you would impute the holy walk to those who are destined to die in the wilderness. Such foolishness negates the judgment of God to determine as HE sees fit who is worthy to be translated into the kingdom realm. You would have every bible owner to claim to be as righteous as God. The foolishness of this enterprise is so obvious that only indoctrinated people would cast aside sound reason to adopt it. Only Enoch111 has the gall to admit he is as righteous as God....why? because of his beliefs. Circular reasoning.

There is also just the fact that He is being gracious, when He chooses to be, when someone places their faith in Him, when someone is penitent. And graciousness is not lying, it's a virtue. Like we are called to forgive others, not to impute their sin to them when they have sinned against us...even though they did in fact sin.

Read the bible (Old Testament) as the early Christians did...and learn the ways of God. God has always been merciful. But He is not merciful toward those who misrepresent Him. (And please don;t say I'm an OT Christian ;)...just because I hold to the whole counsel of God)

The words "count" and "reckon" are also used interchangeably with the word impute. Bible says we are counted righteous, reckoned as righteous. Same way the scripture says we are to reckon ourselves dead, even though we are in fact alive.

A person in the wilderness can reckon himself dead to Egypt...but not alive in the Promised Land. Do you see the difference?

This does not negate our part, our responsibility, in following and obeying Jesus. Otherwise it's possible the Lord may stop imputing/counting/reckoning us as righteous.

To most people that hate my words, they would call that "works salvation." I am trying to show you the balance between divine grace and human responsibility. There is NO human responsibility if God already sees you as perfect in Christ. Then, it is a question of staying the same. We should NOT change one thing if we are already perfect. You can't have it both ways.

We are admonished and warned how we are to live and walk once we have come to faith in Christ. It's possible to grieve His Spirit to the point where He may depart (ichabod). There is a danger on our part of falling away if we either keep on wilfully sinning, or if we fail to walk on the narrow path and grow/increase (extra oil) thereby. He is looking for good fruit, otherwise the tree can be cut down. Lots of warnings in scripture, that do not negate or contradict what He has done for us in the beginning of our walk to reconcile us to God.

Yes. This is what I'm saying. There is no permanent salvation status in this world. So then you are agreeing with those who profess falsehoods...and you seem unaware of it.

The error you share with the dissenters is that you are confusing righteousness and holiness. All you say could be describing a Jew under the law. You are not seeing the difference between righteousness and holiness. So you are stuck somewhere between Testaments...without having any clear understanding of either.

He gave us a gift to start with, and there exists a possibility that either we may later discard the gift, or that He may take it away again. Hence we work out our salvation with fear and trembling and cling to the cross, the narrow path, as if our eternal lives depend on it, because it does.

The gift is the "talent" of grace...that we are to bear fruit with. And yes, agreed...we are to humbly walk before the Lord in fear and trembling as we seek the higher walk that is IN Christ.

 

[Episkopos]

“he did what was possible for men to do in their own strength”

I’m not debating or arguing but I do have a question concerning “in their own strength” which “in their own strength” makes me think of “in their own image”.

What is possible for men to do in their own image?

Answer to @VictoryinJesus

Man is created in God's image...in the inner man. It is possible to rally to God (from that place) by humbling ourselves in heartfelt surrender. That is within our power. We can STOP what we are doing at any time, and trust the Lord.

The question is concerning “My thoughts and My ways are higher than your own”…This is the question Who told Abram in
Genesis 15:11 to drive the fowls away? And when the fowls came down upon the carcases, Abram drove them away.

Who told Abraham to take his son Issac to the mountain top to offer Issac as a sacrifice? The reason I asked this question is because did Abraham have the wisdom enough to prophetically give “an image” in “his own” of what would come to pass in Jesus Christ “the express image of the Father”?

Another that comes to mind is the woman with the alabaster box, the precious ointment they all squabble should have been sold to feed the poor. Jesus Christ said what she did would be for an remembrance. Who told the woman what was to come to pass? Who told legion “I am many” to come running and to bow before Him, when others were baffled over “who is He?” That is the question…can we by our own strength hear and see?

To some degree we can...by faith. Faith is that quality that makes us, outside of God's presence,...still do what is pleasing to Him. Without faith it is impossible to PLEASE God.

Consider today how it is debated what is prophetic in nature. Is it false or true? Consider all the things men say will come to pass…this year, or on this day and then it doesn’t come to pass. What Abraham did come to pass in Jesus Christ. What the woman with the alabaster box did…come to pass “she prepares me for my death and burial”. Why was there prophetic: taking Issac to the mountain top where a ram was caught in the thicket, or the anointing of Jesus by the woman …true but some prophetic spoken today doesn’t come to pass? Can men by their own strength tell what will come to pass?

No. It is God that justifies. He decides who has faith and who doesn't. What I'm bringing light to is the tradition of men to justify themselves based on bible reading. Our beliefs about God and ourselves...are NOT faith. When God accepts our faith He translates us into His kingdom realm. That is what the gospel is about. That is what the kingdom walk is about.

Does that mean we can't be saved if we are not walking like Jesus? No. It simply means that the present salvation is the liberation of Christ from ALL sin. The future judgment will show God having mercy on many...as they INHERIT salvation at THAT time.

There is much confusion in religious circles these days that confuses the power of God with an eternal inheritance.

Those who walk by faith please God. Yet God accepts all who fear Him and do what is right.

There is both a goodness and a severity with God. It all depends how we walk...in religious arrogance? Or humility?

Peace

 

[Lizbeth]

In my time of warring for the truth, I have assailed this fortress many times. And with some success. What I'm fighting against is a spiritual stronghold that imprisons believers in half-truths and lies. So yes, as Paul said, I am tearing down spiritual strongholds.

Well I'm afraid what you're doing with your stance on imputation is tearing down the cornerstone of our faith. Sorry bro, but you're making rather a hash of that part. We can only understand/receive it by faith, ie, by the spirit. No point in arguing this out any further. Praying for you.

 

[Lizbeth]

Championing a lie is frowned upon by God. It is prophesied that many will turn to lies and fables. You are simply not seeing (at this time) the depth of the great delusion. God would NEVER impute something that goes against a truthful state.

Well you have an argument with God then brother. Christ became a curse for us. He was numbered with the transgressors...imputed to be sinful. Was that His truthful state?

How about this passage:

2Co 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them (is that their true state?); and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

2Co 5:20
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

2Co 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us (was that His true state?), who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Praying for you my friend.

 

[Lizbeth]

A person in the wilderness can reckon himself dead to Egypt...but not alive in the Promised Land. Do you see the difference?

Of course, but where we differ is that I believe being in the Promised Land is imputed to those who believe. Remember Paul saying that there remains therefore a rest for the people of God and that we must not "seem" to fail to enter it. And then at the same time he said we who believe HAVE entered. Seems like a contradiction doesn't it. We still need to catch up our reality with what has been graciously imputed to us.

Praying for the Lord to enlighten your understanding of this.

 

[Johann]

amen

God fills our fuel tank to overflowing so we can in turn take the excess fuel to help fill other peoples fuel tank, as he uses others to help us

Now this was a powerful discourse between marks and the others, and powerful scripture quotations to boot.
Yeah, keep this up, this is going somewhere.
Tnkx @marks and @Eternally Grateful

 

[Johann]

Now this was a powerful discourse between marks and the others, and powerful scripture quotations to boot.
Yeah, keep this up, this is going somewhere.
Tnkx @marks and @Eternally Grateful

and it was counted to him for righteousness, the meaning of which is not, that Abraham imputed righteousness to God, or celebrated his righteousness and faithfulness, as some; or that the world reckoned Abraham a righteous person, as others; but that God reckoned him righteous, or imputed it to him for righteousness: and the question is, what the it is which was counted to him for righteousness? and that this is to be understood, על האמנה, "concerning faith", as R. Solomon Jarchi says, is out of question; for this is expressly said by the apostle, Rom_4:9. The only one is, whether it means the grace of faith by which he believed; or the object of faith on which he believed, and with which his faith was conversant: not the former, for that is not righteousness, nor accounted so; but is distinguished from it, and is that by which a person receives and lays hold on righteousness; besides, whatever may be alleged in favour of the imputation of Abraham's faith to himself for righteousness, it can never be thought to be imputed to others on that account; whereas the very selfsame it is imputed to others also; see Rom_4:24; it remains then that it was the promised seed, the Messiah, and his righteousness, which Abraham, by faith, looked unto, and believed in, that was made unto him righteousness by imputation. Now since so great and good a man as Abraham was not justified by works, but by faith in the righteousness of the Messiah, it follows, that none of his sons, nor any other person whatever, ought to seek for, or expect to be justified in any other way.
(c) T. Bab. Beracot, fol. 5. 1. & 15. 2. & passim.

Guess Gill is wrong and ol' epi right.

 

[Episkopos]

Well I'm afraid what you're doing with your stance on imputation is tearing down the cornerstone of our faith. Sorry bro, but you're making rather a hash of that part. We can only understand/receive it by faith, ie, by the spirit. No point in arguing this out any further. Praying for you.

The cornerstone of all religion is based on saving the outer man....yes. One must tear down before one can build.

Look at Jeremiah...a prophet to the nations....what did God say for him to do?

"See, I have this day set thee over the nations and over the kingdoms, to root out, and to pull down, and to destroy, and to throw down, to build, and to plant." Jer. 1:10

Anything that has any eternal value must be built on the shambles of what we think is right. Our ways are not God's ways. And what we highly esteem is abomination with God.

 

[Episkopos]

Well you have an argument with God then brother. Christ became a curse for us. He was numbered with the transgressors...imputed to be sinful. Was that His truthful state?

God never cursed His Son. The religious outer man did this...to preserve his peace. The chastisement of OUR peace was on Him.

He was cursed by evil men. You are taking the side of evil men here if you think what was imputed to Him was true. Of course evil men impute things on people that aren't true. And thieves cheat on taxes too. And those who walk in the truth are hated. But that doesn't change a person's standing with God. You are not understanding the bible narrative.

Paul says...the more I love the less I be loved. Does that mean that God loves him less...or evil men?

How about this passage:

2Co 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them (is that their true state?); and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

I already went over this...but you are stuck in your unrenewed mind (circular wilderness reasoning) ...due to bible conditioning.

God is merciful to the righteous. If the righteous don't judge...then God doesn't judge them. God treats us as we treat others. So if we look beyond the sins of people...God will look beyond our sins.

This is basic righteousness. And NOT based on the gospel.

2Co 5:20
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

2Co 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us (was that His true state?), who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Jesus was made sin TO US....not to God. We don't impute things properly. And you are doing the same thing here...calling something that evil men have done...and claiming that justifies you to call your own walk as being as righteous as God...while you are walking in the wilderness in circles.

The reasoning goes...if I just walk in more circles...somehow...that's the same as walking in resurrection life...at some point! But this is false. We don't advance by doing the same things over and over again.

Praying for you my friend.

Amen! :) And likewise!

 

[Episkopos]

Of course, but where we differ is that I believe being in the Promised Land is imputed to those who believe.

I know you do. :) But the Israelites DIED in the wilderness. Wake up call alert! We will be cut off...just they were...by failing to enter in. This is speaking of the higher walk...which can only be imputed to someone...if they have actually been translated into Zion to walk in resurrection life.

The modern gospel is based on a fiction that sees rich people spoiled into believing a lie.

The gospel is true. But people put themselves in a place where they are not. The Pharisees did the same thing. And so does the one who is not dressed properly and is bound hand and foot and cast into outer darkness.

Remember Paul saying that there remains therefore a rest for the people of God and that we must not "seem" to fail to enter it. And then at the same time he said we who believe HAVE entered. Seems like a contradiction doesn't it. We still need to catch up our reality with what has been graciously imputed to us.

A contradiction? Those who have the faith OF Christ have indeed entered into the kingdom walk. The problem is when that status is given to those who are still walking in their own strength and religious opinions. God's ways are according to POWER...not fiction.

Paul warns against a form of godliness that denies the power. Always learning...going in wilderness circles...but never coming to the knowledge of the truth (Promise Land walk)

Praying for the Lord to enlighten your understanding of this.

Exactly my position! :)

You think that your faith IS the faith OF Christ. But your faith can never be someone else's. It is YOUR faith you are raising up to be the same as Christ's. AND, you are raising up your own righteousness to be that of God.

I have grand daughters who think they are princesses. And that's cute. But growth causes one to let go of childish things in order to embrace the truth.

PS. There is such thing as real princesses. But not everyone who thinks they are ...are such.

 

[Johann]

In my time of warring for the truth, I have assailed this fortress many times. And with some success. What I'm fighting against is a spiritual stronghold that imprisons believers in half-truths and lies. So yes, as Paul said, I am tearing down spiritual strongholds.




But the bible is not incorrect....people are, by imputing wrongly. Also. God doesn't lie.


Championing a lie is frowned upon by God. It is prophesied that many will turn to lies and fables. You are simply not seeing (at this time) the depth of the great delusion. God would NEVER impute something that goes against a truthful state.

People lie and invent things. God doesn't do this. He creates with power and reality. This whole imputation thing is a rebellion of unbelief against the power of grace...that actually transforms people into a holy walk above sin.

In your scheme you would impute the holy walk to those who are destined to die in the wilderness. Such foolishness negates the judgment of God to determine as HE sees fit who is worthy to be translated into the kingdom realm. You would have every bible owner to claim to be as righteous as God. The foolishness of this enterprise is so obvious that only indoctrinated people would cast aside sound reason to adopt it. Only Enoch111 has the gall to admit he is as righteous as God....why? because of his beliefs. Circular reasoning.




Read the bible (Old Testament) as the early Christians did...and learn the ways of God. God has always been merciful. But He is not merciful toward those who misrepresent Him. (And please don;t say I'm an OT Christian ;)...just because I hold to the whole counsel of God)



A person in the wilderness can reckon himself dead to Egypt...but not alive in the Promised Land. Do you see the difference?


To most people that hate my words, they would call that "works salvation." I am trying to show you the balance between divine grace and human responsibility. There is NO human responsibility if God already sees you as perfect in Christ. Then, it is a question of staying the same. We should NOT change one thing if we are already perfect. You can't have it both ways.



Yes. This is what I'm saying. There is no permanent salvation status in this world. So then you are agreeing with those who profess falsehoods...and you seem unaware of it.

The error you share with the dissenters is that you are confusing righteousness and holiness. All you say could be describing a Jew under the law. You are not seeing the difference between righteousness and holiness. So you are stuck somewhere between Testaments...without having any clear understanding of either.



The gift is the "talent" of grace...that we are to bear fruit with. And yes, agreed...we are to humbly walk before the Lord in fear and trembling as we seek the higher walk that is IN Christ.

Your doctrine sound strange to my ears.



‹›
Most Relevant Verses
2 Corinthians 5:21
Verse Concepts
He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Romans 4:24
Verse Concepts
but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead,

Romans 4:22
Verse Concepts
Therefore it was also credited to him as righteousness.

Romans 4:3
Verse Concepts
For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

Genesis 15:6
Verse Concepts
Then he believed in the Lord; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.

Romans 3:22
Verse Concepts
even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;

Galatians 3:6
Verse Concepts
Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.

James 2:23
Verse Concepts
and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness,” and he was called the friend of God.

Psalm 32:2
Verse Concepts
How blessed is the man to whom the Lord does not impute iniquity,
And in whose spirit there is no deceit!

Romans 4:8
Verse Concepts
“Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account.”

1 Corinthians 1:30
Verse Concepts
But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,

Romans 4:5
Verse Concepts
But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

Romans 4:23
Verse Concepts
Now not for his sake only was it written that it was credited to him,

Romans 4:11
Verse Concepts
and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them,

Romans 4:4
Verse Concepts
Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.

Romans 1:17
Verse Concepts
For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “But the righteous man shall live by faith.”

Romans 4:25
Verse Concepts
He who was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification.

Philippians 3:9
Verse Concepts
and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,

Romans 4:6
Verse Concepts
just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

Matthew 5:20
Verse Concepts
“For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

2 Corinthians 5:19
Verse Concepts
namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

Ephesians 6:14
Verse Concepts
Stand firm therefore, having girded your loins with truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness,

Romans 5:1
Verse Concepts
Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Romans 5:19
Verse Concepts
For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

Romans 4:10
How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised;

Source: 25 Bible verses about Righteousness Imputed
Righteousness imputed » Described as » The righteousness of faith
Righteousness imputed » Saints » Have, on believing
Righteousness imputed » Predicted
Righteousness imputed » Exemplified » Abraham
Righteousness imputed » Described as » Our being made the righteousness of God, in Christ
Righteousness imputed » Described as » Christ being made righteousness unto us
Righteousness imputed » Exemplified » Paul
Righteousness imputed » Saints » Desire to be found in
Righteousness imputed » Saints » Glory in having
Righteousness imputed » Christ called the lord of our righteousness
Righteousness imputed » Saints » Clothed with the robe of righteousness
Righteousness imputed » Exhortation to seek righteousness
Righteousness imputed » Is of the lord
Righteousness imputed » Described as » The righteousness of God by faith in Christ
Righteousness imputed » Described as » The righteousness of God, without the law
Righteousness imputed » The jews » Stumble at righteousness by faith
Righteousness imputed » The jews » Submit not to
Righteousness imputed » The jews » Ignorant of
Righteousness imputed » Saints » Exalted in righteousness
Righteousness imputed » Christ brings in an everlasting righteousness
Righteousness imputed » God's righteousness never to be abolished
Righteousness imputed » Christ is the end of the law for
Righteousness imputed » The promises made through
Righteousness imputed » The gentiles attained to
Righteousness imputed » Is a free gift
Righteousness imputed » Revealed in the gospel
Righteousness imputed » Blessedness of those who have
Union with Christ » Beneficial results of » Righteousness imputed

Source: 25 Bible verses about Righteousness Imputed

25 Bible verses about Righteousness Imputed

A topical Bible which shows the most relevant Bible verse for each topic

bible.knowing-jesus.com

 

[Keturah]

I don't call this works salvation, I call it lies and false- hood and heresies..
straight off Satan's black heart and sulfury breath !

 

[Lizbeth]

The cornerstone of all religion is based on saving the outer man....yes. One must tear down before one can build.

Look at Jeremiah...a prophet to the nations....what did God say for him to do?

"See, I have this day set thee over the nations and over the kingdoms, to root out, and to pull down, and to destroy, and to throw down, to build, and to plant." Jer. 1:10

Anything that has any eternal value must be built on the shambles of what we think is right. Our ways are not God's ways. And what we highly esteem is abomination with God.

Christ IN us, the hope of glory. May it never be torn down! Instead of going about seeking to establish our own righteousness like those under the Law without Christ, we are to submit to HIS righteousness which IS in us, ie, obey and follow His Spirit within us.

Rom 10:3-4

For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

 

[Episkopos]

Christ IN us, the hope of glory. May it never be torn down! Instead of going about seeking to establish our own righteousness like those under the Law without Christ, we are to submit to HIS righteousness which IS in us, ie, obey and follow His Spirit within us.

Rom 10:3-4

For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Calvin held to an extreme position. He believed that divine grace trumped human responsibility. When he realized that people who saw themselves as under grace were slackers when it came to human responsibility...he sought to force holiness on people. He even condemned people to death. All this to support a false premise...that people were more advanced than they were...even himself.

If he believed in what he said he did...why did people need to be forced into seeming more holy than they were? Why try to play Holy Spirit?

The truth is that we know people by their fruit. No need to pretend.

Setting up lofty idealistic claims for the flesh is a condition prophesied in the bible. It's called...,"building our sepulchres on high" . Prophetically, this is "Shebna"...representing the modern church system and its adherents.

We can avoid that by waiting on the Lord...with "Eliakim", who replaced Shebna. Eliakim means "God will raise up".

Had Calvin waited on the Lord, and not try to force people to be good...he might have seen God at work.

The difference between what I teach and what my detractors believe....is that there is real power in the gospel and the faith OF Christ. There is no need to pretend someone is something they are not. That's why fruit is so important.

You will know them by their fruit, not by their pretensions and what they impute to themselves.

We need to discern the sign of the times.

Peace

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Calvin held to an extreme position. He believed that divine grace trumped human responsibility. When he realized that people who saw themselves as under grace were slackers when it came to human responsibility...he sought to force holiness on people. He even condemned people to death. All this to support a false premise...that people were more advanced than they were...even himself.

If he believed in what he said he did...why did people need to be forced into seeming more holy than they were? Why try to play Holy Spirit?

The truth is that we know people by their fruit. No need to pretend.

Setting up lofty idealistic claims for the flesh is a condition prophesied in the bible. It's called...,"building our sepulchres on high" . Prophetically, this is "Shebna"...representing the modern church system and its adherents.

We can avoid that by waiting on the Lord...with "Eliakim", who replaced Shebna. Eliakim means "God will raise up".

Had Calvin waited on the Lord, and not try to force people to be good...he might have seen God at work.

The difference between what I teach and what my detractors believe....is that there is real power in the gospel and the faith OF Christ. There is no need to pretend someone is something they are not. That's why fruit is so important.

You will know them by their fruit, not by their pretensions and what they impute to themselves.

We need to discern the sign of the times.

Peace

I have thought that about Luther too. He tortured and whipped his body. And I can see why he did. I became odious to myself too. But had Luther waited on God after he came to the end of his own strength instead of arriving at the conclusion that God could not tame the flesh and put that enemy under Luther’s feet…

 

[Lizbeth]

I know you do. :) But the Israelites DIED in the wilderness. Wake up call alert! We will be cut off...just they were...by failing to enter in. This is speaking of the higher walk...which can only be imputed to someone...if they have actually been translated into Zion to walk in resurrection life.

Cut off, but not until they were led to/offered that option and reached that point of failure. (Valley of decision, I think..?) Until then, the children of Israel were COVERED.....cloud by day, fire by night.

 

[Episkopos]

I have thought that about Luther too. He tortured and whipped his body. And I can see why he did. I became odious to myself too. But had Luther waited on God after he came to the end of his own strength instead of arriving at the conclusion that God could not tame the flesh and put that enemy under Luther’s feet…

God doesn't meet our expectations, nor should He. We should be meeting His expectations. So we have the tail wagging the dog, so to speak.

God can do as He wants without having us go off on a tangent because we are unable to wait on Him. I see the whole religious system that way....moving ahead confidently but without God's approval.

 

[Lizbeth]

He was cursed by evil men. You are taking the side of evil men here if you think what was imputed to Him was true.

Here again you don't seem to be understanding my post.

 

[Episkopos]

Cut off, but not until they were led to/offered that option and reached that point of failure. (Valley of decision, I think..?) Until then, the children of Israel were COVERED.....cloud by day, fire by night.

Again, being LED by the Spirit is not the same as being IN the Spirit. We can follow Christ at different distances under OUR own power. The wilderness walk is a testing ground for conformity to Christ...in death...so that we can fully surrender ourselves (rather than all this defending the flesh I'm seeing here) in order to satisfy GOD'S requirement and be translated into Zion.

Where is all the esteeming of being dead?

All I see here is the religious flesh flying around without any fear of the Lord. No reckoning of death there.

People will resist balance...ALWAYS...until they are dead. Otherwise it always looks like the opposite polarity is being championed so that a balanced person is rejected by both extremes.