Imputation is based on the Old Testament

[stunnedbygrace]

Maybe he mispoke then..? How can bad doctrine work for anyone?

He wasn’t saying wrong/bad doctrine works. He was saying it fools people through its vagueness. But truly, even if it does, as long as you stay humble and don’t condemn/judge the eternal fate of others, you will keep yourself safe.
As for being judged harder if you teach wrong to men and do harm to them…if men didn’t say they could see when they haven’t they would have no sin but because they say they see when they can’t their sin remains.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

That wasn't 'aimed' at anybody.....it just belonged with the next verse. You only really need to pay attention to what I underlined to understand my earlier post.

Oh come now. It was aimed at SOMEONE. It was at least aimed at those in here who you think have gone beyond what was written.

And the part you underlined is aimed at SOMEONE. It was at least aimed at those in here who you think are boasting that they trust God.

 

[Lizbeth]

Oh come now. It was aimed at SOMEONE. It was at least aimed at those in here who you think have gone beyond what was written.

And the part you underlined is aimed at SOMEONE. It was at least aimed at those in here who you think are boasting that they trust God.

Sister, you are confusing me. Or maybe you are not understanding me. The underlined part is definitely aimed at anyone who believes we can stand in our own righteousness. But it was not meant maliciously.

 

[Episkopos]

Sister, you are confusing me. Or maybe you are not understanding me. The underlined part is definitely aimed at anyone who believes we can stand in our own righteousness. But it was not meant maliciously.

The righteous don't stand on their own righteousness. They look to God for mercy. Do you remember the publican who beat his chest and begged for God's mercy...he went home justified (by God). That means he was seen as righteous...or that God imputed a human righteous standing to him.

The irony is that evangelicalism makes people declare their own righteousness. This is very unlike the ones whom God justified. Many will tell Jesus on that day how justified they are by Him. And Jesus will say "I don't know you" Who are those arrogant ones who defend their own justification before Him? In the history of the world only evangelicalism does this.

Is there such thing as a humble evangelical? Maybe in poorer countries????

 

[Keturah]

 

[Episkopos]

I suppose we must take error to its most drastic and illogical conclusion. What is needed here is a thesaurus or even a dictionary. I speak here of @Keturah 's propaganda campaign regarding the error that I'm hoping will be seen for what it is...thus liberating modern believers into a place where they are free to take responsibility for their own lives and move on with God.

1. There is no way that Adam's sin could be imputed to future mankind...since they were not even born yet. No, Adam is responsible for his own sin...and it wasn't the fault of those who would come afterward. So we must impute Adam's sin to Adam. As God did.

2. And it is even more ridiculous that our sins could be imputed to Christ who knew no sin. He is not responsible for our sins. Of course He was SEEN by people as sinful...so He became sin for us. The bible says ..."we esteemed (imputed) Him not" Is. 53

All it would take is a simple bible study (and not be the sluggards) to overthrow the "imputing" error. Do a study on "Chashav"

3. Christ's righteousness can never be imputed to us. That's why it is called "Christ's". Christ's righteousness is imputed to Christ. That how imputation works. There is no way we can take responsibility for Christ's righteousness. We will all be judged for what we have done with what we have been given. We will be judged by OUR works...not what Jesus did. We will be judged according to our righteousness...although it is God in His righteousness that will do the judging.

There is NO other biblical doctrine possible than what I have stated. Of course, people can be confused with all the statements in the Bible without having a basic understanding of the ways of God.

 

[Lizbeth]

View attachment 28523

Amen!

1Co 15:20-22
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ (the second/last Adam) shall all be made alive.

 

[Lizbeth]

I suppose we must take error to its most drastic and illogical conclusion. What is needed here is a thesaurus or even a dictionary. I speak here of @Keturah 's propaganda campaign regarding the error that I'm hoping will be seen for what it is...thus liberating modern believers into a place where they are free to take responsibility for their own lives and move on with God.

1. There is no way that Adam's sin could be imputed to future mankind...since they were not even born yet. No, Adam is responsible for his own sin...and it wasn't the fault of those who would come afterward. So we must impute Adam's sin to Adam. As God did.

2. And it is even more ridiculous that our sins could be imputed to Christ who knew no sin. He is not responsible for our sins. Of course He was SEEN by people as sinful...so He became sin for us. The bible says ..."we esteemed (imputed) Him not" Is. 53

All it would take is a simple bible study (and not be the sluggards) to overthrow the "imputing" error. Do a study on "Chashav"

3. Christ's righteousness can never be imputed to us. That's why it is called "Christ's". Christ's righteousness is imputed to Christ. That how imputation works. There is no way we can take responsibility for Christ's righteousness. We will all be judged for what we have done with what we have been given. We will be judged by OUR works...not what Jesus did. We will be judged according to our righteousness...although it is God in His righteousness that will do the judging.

There is NO other biblical doctrine possible than what I have stated. Of course, people can be confused with all the statements in the Bible without having a basic understanding of the ways of God.

We need the illumination of the Holy Spirit to give light to our understanding, to help us "see" and grasp these things.

Adam's sin was imputed to us in that we were all born with weak flesh under Adam's punishment, the curse of death (wages of sin), even though as newborn infants we hadn't sinned yet. It's true that we all also do sin ourselves, due to the weakness that we were born into. (Christ died for us while we were yet without strength.)

Our sins were imputed to Jesus in that as scripture says our sins were laid on Him....He paid the penalty for our sins....He was crucified on the cross and died for us by proxy. (Our old man was crucified with Him...by proxy.)

 

[Episkopos]

We need the illumination of the Holy Spirit to give light to our understanding, to help us "see" and grasp these things.

Yes...but not religious speculations that offend God.

Adam's sin was imputed to us in that we were all born with weak flesh under Adam's punishment, the curse of death (wages of sin), even though as newborn infants we hadn't sinned yet. It's true that we all also do sin ourselves, due to the weakness that we were born into. (Christ died for us while we were yet without strength.)

That's not the case. We are not born with sin..we are born outside God's presence. We learn to rely on an outer man covering that protects us in this world. Why does God's covenant require circumcision? The foreskin is meant as a protection...a husk of protection. That husk is no longer required when we have Christ as our covering. I'm speaking here of the circumcision of the heart....the putting away of the carnal nature embedded in the outer man.

Adam's sin is not imputed to us. We have our own sins to contend with. You have adopted a doctrine of irresponsibility that comes from those who despise God's laws. We will not be judged by what Adam did...but what WE did. And we will not be judged by what Jesus did...for the same reason.

Religious speculation is not the same as walking in resurrection life.

Our sins were imputed to Jesus in that as scripture says our sins were laid on Him....He paid the penalty for our sins....He was crucified on the cross and died for us by proxy. (Our old man was crucified with Him...by proxy.)

That's impossible. Jesus never made us sin. It is a horrible thing to say that Jesus was responsible for our sins. WE laid our sins on Jesus. We imputed sin to Him. Evil men did this...AND the principalities took advantage of God's "weakness" to triumph over the "flesh" of Jesus. But it was Jesus who triumphed over the flesh.

The fact that so many religious people misunderstand what Jesus did is understandable...but the irresponsibility that these doctrines of men breed...is so self-evident.

Rich people in the West want an easy religion that allows them to live irresponsibly before God...for now. And a false doctrine of Christ is used to perpetuate these errors.

 

[Episkopos]

Paul reasoned with people. Jesus reasoned with people. The truth is hard...but it isn't unreasonable. However, religiously indoctrinated people are no longer reachable through reason. They will say that you need to be more "spiritual" ie...UNreasonable... to understand what is plainly NOT biblical or true in any way. They see salvation in accepting what is both unreasonable and irresponsible. Sin? That's Adam's fault! Salvation? That's for whoever claims it...as in...I believe therefore I am.

This is not scratching the surface of the law let alone grace.

There is what is beyond HUMAN reasoning (spiritual understanding)...and then there is simply what is unreasonable at any level. What I see here is a lack of discernment between the 2. A faux spiritual understanding uses any unreasonable statement as the gateway to higher truth. But that is not the case. It is rather a doorway into a deeper hole of darkness. It's going the wrong way. That why we have the scriptures...especially the OT. We need the scriptures as a guard rail against absolute lawlessness...and what we see in the churches of our time. The scriptures also point out the way...if we don't ignore anything that rubs us as offensive to the flesh.

Is grace against the law? No, grace is the part of the law that was prophesied ...that fulfills the law. It is the power to walk as Jesus walked by the faith OF Christ.

Who then put Jesus on the cross? Was it the Father? Or evil men? Who imputed sin to Jesus? Was it the Father? Or evil men?

Who continues to impute sin to Jesus? Is it the Father? Or evil men?

Jesus is an Advocate for those who belong to Him. Do we punish the advocate for what the sinner has done?

 

[Keturah]

I suppose we must take error to its most drastic and illogical conclusion. What is needed here is a thesaurus or even a dictionary. I speak here of @Keturah 's propaganda campaign regarding the error that I'm hoping will be seen for what it is...thus liberating modern believers into a place where they are free to take responsibility for their own lives and move on with God.

1. There is no way that Adam's sin could be imputed to future mankind...since they were not even born yet. No, Adam is responsible for his own sin...and it wasn't the fault of those who would come afterward. So we must impute Adam's sin to Adam. As God did.

2. And it is even more ridiculous that our sins could be imputed to Christ who knew no sin. He is not responsible for our sins. Of course He was SEEN by people as sinful...so He became sin for us. The bible says ..."we esteemed (imputed) Him not" Is. 53

All it would take is a simple bible study (and not be the sluggards) to overthrow the "imputing" error. Do a study on "Chashav"

3. Christ's righteousness can never be imputed to us. That's why it is called "Christ's". Christ's righteousness is imputed to Christ. That how imputation works. There is no way we can take responsibility for Christ's righteousness. We will all be judged for what we have done with what we have been given. We will be judged by OUR works...not what Jesus did. We will be judged according to our righteousness...although it is God in His righteousness that will do the judging.

There is NO other biblical doctrine possible than what I have stated. Of course, people can be confused with all the statements in the Bible without having a basic understanding of the ways of God.

You need to come to Jesus that you may have a TRUE & REAL relationship with God !.

You are a false messenger with a false message and if ANY follow your heresy they will be followers of you and not of Christ !

I realize that you are so steeped in your OWN erroneous thinking of so many yrs w / o listening to God's Spirit that there may be no hope but only a reprobate mind !

This self important viewing of your self promoting false propaganda vids needs to NOT be allowed on a " Christian site without a disclaimer and warning.

Pray to be a follower of GOD and not a blind false messenger who will answer for souls that are persuaded by your cunning lies to reject the TRUTH ; GOD'S WORD!

 

[Keturah]

Paul reasoned with people. Jesus reasoned with people. The truth is hard...but it isn't unreasonable. However, religiously indoctrinated people are no longer reachable through reason. They will say that you need to be more "spiritual" ie...UNreasonable... to understand what is plainly NOT biblical or true in any way. They see salvation in accepting what is both unreasonable and irresponsible. Sin? That's Adam's fault! Salvation? That's for whoever claims it...as in...I believe therefore I am.

This is not scratching the surface of the law let alone grace.

There is what is beyond HUMAN reasoning (spiritual understanding)...and then there is simply what is unreasonable at any level. What I see here is a lack of discernment between the 2. A faux spiritual understanding uses any unreasonable statement as the gateway to higher truth. But that is not the case. It is rather a doorway into a deeper hole of darkness. It's going the wrong way. That why we have the scriptures...especially the OT. We need the scriptures as a guard rail against absolute lawlessness...and what we see in the churches of our time. The scriptures also point out the way...if we don't ignore anything that rubs us as offensive to the flesh.

Is grace against the law? No, grace is the part of the law that was prophesied ...that fulfills the law. It is the power to walk as Jesus walked by the faith OF Christ.

Who then put Jesus on the cross? Was it the Father? Or evil men? Who imputed sin to Jesus? Was it the Father? Or evil men?

Who continues to impute sin to Jesus? Is it the Father? Or evil men?

Jesus is an Advocate for those who belong to Him. Do we punish the advocate for what the sinner has done?

Be sure you post the date / time of ONLY your LIVE WALKING WITH GOD AND WAS NOT FOR GOD TOOK YOU, so we may know.

E.T. phone home.........

 

[Episkopos]

You need to come to Jesus that you may have a TRUE & REAL relationship with God !.

You are a false messenger with a false message and if ANY follow your heresy they will be followers of you and not of Christ !

Luther isn't Christ. You have been convinced of a man made religious scheme that takes away both righteousness and holiness.

I realize that you are so steeped in your OWN erroneous thinking of so many yrs w / o listening to God's Spirit that there may be no hope but only a reprobate mind !

This self important viewing of your self promoting false propaganda vids needs to NOT be allowed on a " Christian site without a disclaimer and warning.

Like this... Warning: Sound Doctrine Alert. Difficult for religious people to endure content.

Pray to be a follower of GOD and not a blind false messenger who will answer for souls that are persuaded by your cunning lies to reject the TRUTH ; GOD'S WORD!

I see you are unable to refute what I say using the bible. :)

 

[Lizbeth]

Yes...but not religious speculations that offend God.



That's not the case. We are not born with sin..we are born outside God's presence. We learn to rely on an outer man covering that protects us in this world. Why does God's covenant require circumcision? The foreskin is meant as a protection...a husk of protection. That husk is no longer required when we have Christ as our covering. I'm speaking here of the circumcision of the heart....the putting away of the carnal nature embedded in the outer man.

Adam's sin is not imputed to us. We have our own sins to contend with. You have adopted a doctrine of irresponsibility that comes from those who despise God's laws. We will not be judged by what Adam did...but what WE did. And we will not be judged by what Jesus did...for the same reason.

Religious speculation is not the same as walking in resurrection life.



That's impossible. Jesus never made us sin. It is a horrible thing to say that Jesus was responsible for our sins. WE laid our sins on Jesus. We imputed sin to Him. Evil men did this...AND the principalities took advantage of God's "weakness" to triumph over the "flesh" of Jesus. But it was Jesus who triumphed over the flesh.

The fact that so many religious people misunderstand what Jesus did is understandable...but the irresponsibility that these doctrines of men breed...is so self-evident.

Rich people in the West want an easy religion that allows them to live irresponsibly before God...for now. And a false doctrine of Christ is used to perpetuate these errors.

Strange post, like smoke and mirrors and a man waving his arms wildly. Not for the first time, along with more false accusations/insinuations, this shows you are not grasping what is being said.

I don't think I've got anything more to add to this conversation.

 

[Episkopos]

Strange post, like smoke and mirrors and a man waving his arms wildly. Not for the first time, along with more false accusations/insinuations, this shows you are not grasping what is being said.

I don't think I've got anything more to add to this conversation.

LOL. I am totally grasping what is being said. It's just not biblical. And you are not using the word "imputation" correctly. And the reason for that misuse is a misunderstanding of what divine grace is as well as human responsibility.

 

[Episkopos]

Education is key. Knowledge is key.

I remember back in the day there was a misunderstanding of the word "aggravate". People would say they were aggravated about something. What they meant was, they were frustrated or angry about something. But aggravate means to make worse. So it was a misuse of the word. What could have been said was that...their mood was aggravated, perhaps...but not just that they were aggravated.

I used to have an uncle that said that he would "make a stoke" ....meaning start a fire. Now, here again you stoke a fire, but that doesn't mean to start a fire...it means to keep a fire going.

That brings us to imputing.

To impute means to attribute. An imputing must be true..it must be coming from the one who it is imputed to. Any false imputation is a false attributing. It is a lie. And God doesn't lie.

I think what people mean is to place something on someone without their being responsible for it. So then it is a meaning that supports a non-responsibility. And this is precisely what that kind of thinking is...irresponsible.

Are Adam sin's imputed to us? No. His nature is passed down to us through our lack of direct connection to God. We inherit the sin nature because mankind is no longer in the garden with access to the tree of life. No imputing here.

Were our sins transferred to Christ by God or us by "imputing" them to Him? No. Jesus took on the world and took our sins on Him...He bore our sins and foolishness to the cross. Jesus confronted the flesh and it was the religious flesh that reacted to the truth. This is about the war between the flesh and the Spirit. The chastisement of OUR peace was upon Him. That means we stamped out holiness in order to be at peace with our flesh. Jesus came to bring another kind of peace...an eternal rest. But then as now...most prefer their own version of peace and doctrines that make them feel good about themselves. Most modern believers hate the cross as it applies to them.

ALL who walk godly IN Christ suffer persecution? Why? Because the flesh falsely imputes godliness as sin. So the reverse of imputing righteousness is happening.

So people have it exactly backwards.

And finally, does God impute His righteousness to us? Never. Nobody is as righteous as God. Rather, God COVERS us with His righteousness as we abide in Christ....who becomes our righteousness and holiness....but only as we are covered by Him.

We are to seek the kingdom of God and His righteousness. Is God's kingdom "imputed" to us? No more than His righteousness is. No, we are to seek the translation into the kingdom realm of the Spirit to walk as Jesus walked. From there we REFLECT the righteousness, love and perfection of Christ.

 

[Keturah]

 

[Lizbeth]

LOL. I am totally grasping what is being said. It's just not biblical. And you are not using the word "imputation" correctly. And the reason for that misuse is a misunderstanding of what divine grace is as well as human responsibility.

If you were grasping what I am saying you wouldn't keep imputing things to me that I'm not saying.

 

[Episkopos]

If you were grasping what I am saying you wouldn't keep imputing things to me that I'm not saying.

There you go! A proper use of the word imputing. Finally. Do you see that imputing needs to be true? It can't be something that is not appropriate to attribute to someone. Like we can't impute sin to Christ or God's righteousness to people.

There may yet be hope! :)

 

[Lizbeth]

There you go! A proper use of the word imputing. Finally. Do you see that imputing needs to be true? It can't be something that is not appropriate to attribute to someone. Like we can't impute sin to Christ or God's righteousness to people.

There may yet be hope! :)

Oh well, if there is hope, maybe I'll try one last time. :) Is there any point though? You are just not willing to consider the possibility that you may be wrong about the definition and useage of the word impute. It's like a stronghold with you.

A person may be 'correct' or 'incorrect' in what they are imputing to another. They are still imputing it regardless. When God is doing the imputing, well He is God and what He says (ordains) goes. He can call those things that be not as though they are.....that is not lying, but there is power in the tongue, in His word, to fulfill what He is calling/saying. There is also just the fact that He is being gracious, when He chooses to be, when someone places their faith in Him, when someone is penitent. And graciousness is not lying, it's a virtue. Like we are called to forgive others, not to impute their sin to them when they have sinned against us...even though they did in fact sin.

The words "count" and "reckon" are also used interchangeably with the word impute. Bible says we are counted righteous, reckoned as righteous. Same way the scripture says we are to reckon ourselves dead, even though we are in fact alive.

This does not negate our part, our responsibility, in following and obeying Jesus. Otherwise it's possible the Lord may stop imputing/counting/reckoning us as righteous. We are admonished and warned how we are to live and walk once we have come to faith in Christ. It's possible to grieve His Spirit to the point where He may depart (ichabod). There is a danger on our part of falling away if we either keep on wilfully sinning, or if we fail to walk on the narrow path and grow/increase (extra oil) thereby. He is looking for good fruit, otherwise the tree can be cut down. Lots of warnings in scripture, that do not negate or contradict what He has done for us in the beginning of our walk to reconcile us to God. He gave us a gift to start with, and there exists a possibility that either we may later discard the gift, or that He may take it away again. Hence we work out our salvation with fear and trembling and cling to the cross, the narrow path, as if our eternal lives depend on it, because it does.

Rom 2:26
Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? (counted/reckoned to be circumcised even though not circumcised in fact...circumcision imputed to the Gentile who believes)

Rom 4:3
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Rom 4:5
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Rom 6:11
Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Luk 22:37
For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end. (Was Jesus a transgressor in fact? No of course not, but He was reckoned/counted to be a transgressor nevertheless when He went to the cross....transgression/sin was imputed to Him.....pictured in the scapegoat of the OT, when the priest laid - imputed - the sins of Israel on it, even though the goat was innocent.)

Rom 4:9
Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.