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And where exactly does Strong's say " the “founding of the world” is the beginning of the “world” of sinful mankind descended from Adam and his wife"? Because I'm looking at my Strong's and there is nothing to suggest that.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
He was defending the Christian stance on divorce so he was referring to the first "marriage".....what God "yoked together" was not to be abandoned by those who wanted to end their marriage under frivolous circumstances. Only two valid scriptural reasons end a marriage in God's eyes and allow for remarriage....adultery and death...that's it.
Like I said.... if Adam and Eve had not sinned, then Jesus would never have needed to come and sacrifice his life for their children....sin and death is inherited from Adam (Rom 5:12).....he was the one whose decision changed the course of history. The woman was deceived, but Adam wasn't. His sin was wilful and deliberate.
Now, at 1 Timothy 2:3-6 Paul talks about Jesus ....
"This is fine and acceptable in the sight of our Savior, God, 4 whose will is that all sorts of people should be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself a ransom for all—this is what is to be witnessed to in its own due time."
Can you see where it says that Jesus gave himself as a "ransom".
Strongs give us the definition of "ransom" as...."what is given in exchange for another as the price of his redemption, ransom"....so we have to understand "redemption" as the first century Jews understood it.
If a man got himself into debt and could not pay it, he was pressed into service to the creditor until the full amount was paid. If he had family to support, one or more of his children could take his place and work off the debt for him.
Adam left his children a debt that no human could ever pay. He committed sin that plunged the entire human race descended from him into sin and death. God's law stated "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, life for a life"......and this was part of the law of compensation ....exactly what was owed had to be paid in order to free the debtor or his children. A wealthy benefactor could pay the debt, and free the family from servitude.
What Adam lost was perfect sinless life for himself and them.....so the only way to cancel the debt, was for God to provide another "sinless life" to be offered on their behalf. So this is why Jesus came from outside of the now defective human race to provide a hope for them in the future. His sacrifice frees us from sin and death, but because God's purpose is not quite fulfilled we wait patiently for our release....some are waiting in their graves for the call to "come out", like Jesus' friend Lazarus (John 11:11-14)
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Yeah, I saw that ... however, you seem to take a few choice words and add your own interpretation to fit your theology.
You are right in that katabole is Strongs 2602. However the definition you give above is from Strong's 2598 kataballo
RR
Stumpmaster
Well-Known Member
Not wrong. No mention by names, but Jesus does make reference to them in a general sense.
Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
Mar 10:5-9 And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept. (6) But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. (7) For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; (8) And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. (9) What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Let's go back and see.....
"katabolē" is the word used in 11 verses of the Bible.....
"Strong's Number G2602 matches the Greek καταβολή (katabolē), in the TR Greek.
Here are the 11 verses.....
Mat 13:35 "This was so that what was spoken through the prophet would be fulfilled:
“I WILL OPEN MY MOUTH IN PARABLES;
I WILL PROCLAIM THINGS HIDDEN SINCE THE FOUNDATION G2602 OF THE WORLD.”
“AS I SWORE IN MY ANGER,
THEY CERTAINLY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST,”
although His works were finished from the foundation G2602 of the world."
So in each of those verses do you see G2598? They are all G2602 which is defined as.....
- a throwing or laying down
- the injection or depositing of the virile semen in the womb
- of the seed of plants and animals"
So, I am sorry but your definition is lacking support from Strongs and the Bible.
"Before the founding of the world" means before the world of mankind was conceived from our first parents.
Their sin was the trigger for the promise in Gen 3:15...which was God's first response.....with the Bible's first prophesy, but its meaning was shrouded in mystery until the seed came.
Actually, it looks like you are quoting the Online Bible Greek Lexicon, which says:
2602 καταβολή katabole [kat-ab-ol-ay’]
from 2598; n f; TDNT-3:620,418; [{See TDNT 362 }]
AV-foundation 10, to conceive + 1519 1; 11
1) a throwing or laying down
1a) the injection or depositing of the virile semen in the womb
1b) of the seed of plants and animals
2) a founding (laying down a foundation)
whereas Strong's Greek Lexicon says:
2602. καταβολή katabole [kat-ab-ol-ay’;] from 2598; a deposition, i.e. founding; figuratively, conception: — conceive, foundation.
and for 2598 it says:
2598 καταβάλλω kataballo [kat-ab-al’-lo]
from 2596 and 906; v;
AV-cast down 2, lay 1; 3
1) to cast down
1a) to throw to the ground, prostate
2) to put in a lower place
2a) to lay (down) a foundation
No, you misunderstood what I was saying. The Definition that YOU cited for Strongs 2602 is actually gor Strong 2598. Look again.Let's go back and see.....
"katabolē" is the word used in 11 verses of the Bible.....
"Strong's Number G2602 matches the Greek καταβολή (katabolē), in the TR Greek.
Here are the 11 verses.....
Mat 13:35 "This was so that what was spoken through the prophet would be fulfilled:
“I WILL OPEN MY MOUTH IN PARABLES;
I WILL PROCLAIM THINGS HIDDEN SINCE THE FOUNDATION G2602 OF THE WORLD.”
Mat 25:34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation G2602 of the world."
Luk 11:50 "so that the blood of all the prophets, shed since the foundation G2602 of the world, may be charged against this generation"
Jhn 17:24 “Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation G2602 of the world.
Eph 1:4 "just as He chose us in Him before the foundation G2602 of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love."
Heb 4:3 "For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said,
“AS I SWORE IN MY ANGER,
THEY CERTAINLY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST,”
although His works were finished from the foundation G2602 of the world."
Heb 9:26 "Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation G2602 of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been revealed to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself."
Heb 11:11 "By faith even Sarah herself received ability to conceive G2602, even beyond the proper time of life, since she considered Him faithful who had promised."
1Pe 1:20 "For He was foreknown before the foundation G2602 of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you "
Rev 13:8 "All who live on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written since the foundation G2602 of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slaughtered."
Rev 17:8 “The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who live on the earth, whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation G2602 of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was, and is not, and will come."
So in each of those verses do you see G2598? They are all G2602 which is defined as.....
- a throwing or laying down
- the injection or depositing of the virile semen in the womb
- of the seed of plants and animals"
So, I am sorry but your definition is lacking support from Strongs and the Bible.
"Before the founding of the world" means before the world of mankind was conceived from our first parents.
Their sin was the trigger for the promise in Gen 3:15...which was God's first response.....with the Bible's first prophesy, but its meaning was shrouded in mystery until the seed came.
The Apostle states that "Satan transforms himself into an angel of light", 2 Cor. 11:14
ScottA
Well-Known Member
Understanding Adam is not the point.
It's an "image" rather of God.
The point is God has made this image as a revelation of all that is in Him, both good and evil. Creation is that "man of sin revealed." "Then comes the end"--of that man. But what is the point of revealing it all? The point is to dispel the darkness before the perfect light of God, wherein Christ is the light of the world. In this way, the revealing of all is also evidence, evidence for the Judgement. The Judgement is a declaration by God of the end of darkness and evil. This is the reason that Eve was taken out of the man (Adam), it is an "image" of sin and evil being taken out of God, by God. Alternatively, the marriage of Christ the Bridegroom with the Bride of the Church, is the result of that dividing out of light from darkness--daily--until the end.
So, no, not exactly. God did not create anything or anyone besides Himself, but rather to separate from Himself all that would be against His own goodness and righteousness for His own sake, of which we are then benefactors.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
I did, and post #68 is pretty clear from the definition given in Strongs Concordance. All 11 of the verses that speak of “the foundation of the world” do not relate to the creation of the planet, but to the “kosmos” as the creation of humankind....those descended from the first sinful humans.
God did not plan for them to sin, but because they were given free will, he was prepared to respond to whatever choice they would make. When all three made the wrong ones, God knew how he would handle each one and still bring about his desired outcome. I heard it described as destination with several routes that could be used to reach it.....it wasn’t an itinerary where the journey was planned from the beginning.
Free will is truly free, but God had to teach them how to drive it in a way that would benefit themselves and others. What better way to teach them than to allow free will to govern their choices without his interference. He would allow the consequences of their own choices to determine their future and demonstrate first hand, the folly of ‘knowing good and evil’ for themselves and being unable to prevent evil from overtaking them in a way that they could not remedy on their own. They created a monster that they could not control. Abuse of free will is at the base of all human suffering.
Yes a definition YOU added and or misapplied. Strongs 2602 say NOTHING about
- a throwing or laying down
- the injection or depositing of the virile semen in the womb
- of the seed of plants and animals"
Jehovah did not plan for them to sin, but His wisdom dictated that he knew that the possibility would be there. Luke 14:28 tells us "For which of you, intending to build a tower, does not sit down first and count the cost, whether he has enough to finish it." Being made in God's image, would this not apply to the Almighty? That Jehovah counted the cost before creation? Creating mankind as free moral agents? Giving them the opportunity to decide. In fact, wouldn't he have given the angels the same opportunity? After all He created them before mankind, with the same free will.
On this we agree, that is why God permits evil. He's allowed 6,000 years of human suffering to teach mankind the folly of his ways, And during the Kingdom reign of Jesus, all mankind will learn what Jehovah did for them through His Son.
RR
Stumpmaster
Well-Known Member
ScottA
Well-Known Member
Your avatar is an "image" of you, yes? But if you called it 144, who is it an image of, you, or the character 144? And if we asked why did 144 sin (as you have asked)-- who is it we are talking about?
Are the scriptures not a revelation of God? Do they not also reveal all sin? They are indeed both, as is the world...and it begins with God declaring His creation to be an "image" of Himself.
Do you understand this?
You have already answered why Adam (the "image" of God) sinned, and have answered well. It is because He took it upon Himself to dissolve it and declare victory over it. Is this not the story of Christ?
TonyChanYT
Well-Known Member
Because satan attempted to pollute blood line that messiah would be born in the flesh.
In genesis chapter 3:3 . The Hebrew word NAGA means = to touch, beguiled.
God warned adam to stay away from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. This is Lucifer. In garden of eden, Lucifer was there.
Ezekiel 28:13 . Thou has been in Eden the garden of God. Lucifer was in garden of Eden. If Lucifer could prevent christ being born in the flesh, he could avert his death sentence.
Isaiah chapter 14:12 . How art thou fallen from heaven, o Lucifer, son of the morning! The tree of knowledge of good and evil is Lucifer. Theirs no guessing games.
Genesis 2:17. But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shall not eat of it. God told Adam to stay away from Lucifer !. God demands obedience.
Genesis 3:6 . Adam and eve both par took of tree. Meaning. Satan beguiled eve, they had sexual intercourse. Then Adam had sexual intercourse with eve. It was a Orgy.
6:13 . Eve tells God the serpent beguiled me. Eve and satan had sexual intercourse. Adam then knew his wife.
Eve had twins. Two different fathers. Get the picture.
Satan tried to pollute blood line messiah would be born. Lucifer failed.
Jesus was born through virgin, Mary.
Psalm chapter 22. Jesus was crucified on cross. Jesus defeated death, which is satan.
What was sin in eden?
Disobedience.
And there no apple orchard.
Adam and eve covered themselves with fig leaves.
Ashamed of the sexual orgy with satan.
I won't apologize for telling the truth.
I'm sure a fake brethren will try to contaminate my reply.
Children of light abide by the truth.
Fake Christian will attempt to distort the truth. I won't be surprised if theirs attack on my reply.
SKOTEINOS in Greek means = full of darkness. These are false brethren. They might try to subvert God's truth.
In genesis chapter 3:3 . The Hebrew word NAGA means = to touch, beguiled.
God warned adam to stay away from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. This is Lucifer. In garden of eden, Lucifer was there.
Ezekiel 28:13 . Thou has been in Eden the garden of God. Lucifer was in garden of Eden. If Lucifer could prevent christ being born in the flesh, he could avert his death sentence.
Isaiah chapter 14:12 . How art thou fallen from heaven, o Lucifer, son of the morning! The tree of knowledge of good and evil is Lucifer. Theirs no guessing games.
Genesis 2:17. But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shall not eat of it. God told Adam to stay away from Lucifer !. God demands obedience.
Genesis 3:6 . Adam and eve both par took of tree. Meaning. Satan beguiled eve, they had sexual intercourse. Then Adam had sexual intercourse with eve. It was a Orgy.
6:13 . Eve tells God the serpent beguiled me. Eve and satan had sexual intercourse. Adam then knew his wife.
Eve had twins. Two different fathers. Get the picture.
Satan tried to pollute blood line messiah would be born. Lucifer failed.
Jesus was born through virgin, Mary.
Psalm chapter 22. Jesus was crucified on cross. Jesus defeated death, which is satan.
What was sin in eden?
Disobedience.
And there no apple orchard.
Adam and eve covered themselves with fig leaves.
Ashamed of the sexual orgy with satan.
I won't apologize for telling the truth.
I'm sure a fake brethren will try to contaminate my reply.
Children of light abide by the truth.
Fake Christian will attempt to distort the truth. I won't be surprised if theirs attack on my reply.
SKOTEINOS in Greek means = full of darkness. These are false brethren. They might try to subvert God's truth.
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