I don't understand

[ATP]

Does God harden our hearts, or do we have a choice.

Psalm 95:8 NIV “Do not harden your hearts as you did at Meribah, as you did that day at Massah in the wilderness,
Rom 9:18 NIV Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

 

[FHII]

God can and does harden hearts. Tje scripture in romans is referring to pharoah.

The fact that you are even asking shows that perhaps he hasn't hardened yours.

Its a tough thing to realize, but God requires a few villians too. Ultimately, if pharoah doesn't fulfill his part, Christ dies in vain.

 

[ATP]

God can and does harden hearts. Tje scripture in romans is referring to pharoah.

The fact that you are even asking shows that perhaps he hasn't hardened yours.

Its a tough thing to realize, but God requires a few villians too. Ultimately, if pharoah doesn't fulfill his part, Christ dies in vain.

Ok, I see what it means. Pharoah was a nonbeliever.

Question, does God ever harden the hearts of believers. If so, why.

 

[brrrilliantsteve]

No.

I could only find 5 occasions when God hardened anyones heart.

Four verses were references to Pharaoh and the egyptians. (Exodus 4:21, 7:3, 14:4,17).

One reference in Joshua was to the kings of "all that land, the hills, and all the south country, and all the land of Goshen, and the valley, and the plain, and the mountain of Israel, and the valley of the same;"
Joshua 11:20 "For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that he might destroy them utterly, and that they might have no favour, but that he might destroy them, as the LORD commanded Moses."

So… I say "No" to your question does God ever harden the hearts of believers.


All the other verses i found were pleading with believers to not harden you heart. Believers, then, have a choice...

Hebrews 3:8,9 "Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:"

If we will hear his 'still small' voice - today we must exercise our gift of free will and reveal of what nature is our heart; because God is not finished with those who (like pharaoh) do not harken to his voice.

2 Thes 2:11,12 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

 

[TopherNelson]

Hi everyone,

Luke 14 “If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple."

The verse above does not teach you the "doctrine of hate", but it tells you to puts our Lord higher than ourselves, our friends, and our families - to place God at the first position and everything else second. Being able to give up everything, even disobeying your parents to follow God.

Does God harden our hearts, or do we have a choice.

Psalm 95:8 NIV “Do not harden your hearts as you did at Meribah, as you did that day at Massah in the wilderness,
Rom 9:18 NIV Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

We have a choice to follow or not to follow the order of God, sometimes some situation causes you heart to get harden, but there must be a reason for it.

Gelatians 2:20 "I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me.The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me."

Follow what God wants us to do, things that are right. Live a righteous life.
Chris.

 

[KingJ]

Does God harden our hearts, or do we have a choice.

Psalm 95:8 NIV “Do not harden your hearts as you did at Meribah, as you did that day at Massah in the wilderness,
Rom 9:18 NIV Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

Does God deliver us from evil or do we?

God told us to ask / pray to Him to deliver us from evil. It is our choice.

God not delivering us from evil = God hardening our hearts.

Its a tough thing to realize, but God requires a few villians too. Ultimately, if pharoah doesn't fulfill his part, Christ dies in vain.

I can't for the life me grasp how you are ok with isinuating and serving a God that you believe is evil.

God uses what is available. Pharoah was warned. Recall Moses telling Him Gods wishes. God did NOT want Pharoah to be warned? God was wasting His and Moses's time?

You are making assumptions about God. You and I are humans who cannot grasp how God remains good whilst being omnisicent Job 9:3. Let's just look at where the evidence points. God warned Pahoah. Pharoah pulled the middle finger. God stopped helping / blessing / softening the heart of Pharoah as his intentions to hate God and what is good, was much clearer.

You need to meditate on this verse 1 John 1:5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.

 

[FHII]

Its in the bible, kj... don't bother me with your false accusations any more.

 

[KingJ]

Its in the bible, kj... don't bother me with your false accusations any more.

Go jump. Angels will catch you.

 

[aspen]

Does God harden our harden our hearts? Great question. No. The answer is no. God gives us total freedom to love as we were created to love. The writers of the Aldo testament were describing the choices made by man and attributed it to God.

 

[ATP]

Go jump. Angels will catch you.

really, guys?

 

[KingJ]

really, guys?

Sorry ATP, sorry FHI, not a really patient / loving / Christian line by me.

 

[ATP]

No worries brother, we all in the same boat. Someone the other day brought up a really good point. He said...

"While God did say He would harden Pharaoh's heart in Exodus 4:21; 7:3; Pharaoh had already hardened his own heart in his treatment of the Hebrews. IMO, when God hardens people's hearts, He doesn't do it against their will. It is what they want anyway (Romans 1:24)."

But then I ask, if Pharaoh had a choice then why does Rom 9:20-24 exist...(Rom 9:20-24 NIV 20But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ” 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use? 22What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?) - ATP

 

[Dan57]

I personally believe that if we are privy to the truth, but continue to rebel against God, that he will eventually turn his back on us.. Its not so much that God hardens our hearts, its that he removes his spirit from us. The Pharaoh saw the power of God and knew it was futile to resist, but pride caused him to reject God and his heart was hardened. God allows us to be fools when we insist upon it. God doesn't throw his pearls before swine or enlighten those who hold his truth in folly. When a person willingly ignores his word, God will no longer enlighten them. God is not mocked.. jmo

"Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature" (Romans 1:19-26 KJV)

When God gives up on us, our hearts are automatically hardened. Its a sad thing for sure.

 

[ATP]

Its not so much that God hardens our hearts, its that he removes his spirit from us.

What do you mean.

 

[KingJ]

No worries brother, we all in the same boat. Someone the other day brought up a really good point. He said...


But then I ask, if Pharaoh had a choice then why does Rom 9:20-24 exist...(Rom 9:20-24 NIV 20But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ” 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use? 22What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?) - ATP

Rom 9 is one chapter that can really not be read in isolation to the rest of scripture. Paul wanted to be crystal clear on exactly how powerful God is. He can literally do whatever He wants. Grasping Rom 9 with the rest of scripture should cause us to praise Him all the more. A truly omnipitent and omniscient God chooses to make Himself a lamb to the slaughter, chooses to be impartial, chooses to give us free will.

I think we need to discuss partiality. If we read Rom 9 in isolation that is the first assumption made. We need to face the reality that since there is a hell, God's partiality would definitely eqaute to Him being evil. He can be partial all He wants....if there was no hell or annihilation.

So the real question for those who read Rom 9 in isolation is, is God good or evil? Because partiality is definitely evil.

 

[ATP]

So the real question for those who read Rom 9 in isolation is, is God good or evil? Because partiality is definitely evil.

Well, I certainly do believe that there is no evil in the Father. That is obvious.
In Rom 9:20-24 however, why does the Father bring certain life into this world knowing their destination is hell in 20, 50, 80 years.
How did they have a choice if the Father already knew the outcome.
Deut 29:29 ESV “The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law.

 

[Miss Hepburn]

Hi ATP,

I can only speak for myself...I have only known God to open my heart...it feels like it is
'me' opening to Him, ha...but Who am I kidding...it was by His Grace.
I placed my deliberate, conscious focus on Him...but I think He did the rest.

Again, personally...He does not and has never hardened my heart....that is all I know.

Does He harden someone else's...I have no idea...not my pay grade to question or spend time on.

Don't know if that tells you much, but it is my perspective.
Take care, dear.
:) Miss Hepburn

 

[FHII]

I'm going on memory, but I recall that the Pharoah during Joseph's time understood the power of God... At least he had the wisdom to trust Joseph. This pharoah didn't respect God, nor his chosen.

I don't think they were successive pharaohs. -- couldn't have been due to the length of time between Moses an Joe. but one thing you do find is th at the Hebrews who were once honored to a degree were now enslaved.

So this pharoah did indeed already have a hard heart towards God.

But god did say he would harden his heart. And, he did. Correct me if I'm wrong, but after each miracle (plague) pharoah did agree to let them go, only to change his mind.

If you look at the text, after a while it says pharoah hardened his own heart. In other words, God hardened his heart for the first 5 or 6 plagues, and then pharoah just did it himself.

Romans 9 says God did all this and raised up pharoah tp show God's greatness.

To summarize, pharoah already had a hard heart (which God inspired), god made sure his heart stayed that way until pharoah, like one of Pavlov's dogs, learned to harden his own heart.

One thing is certain, though: God claimed the credit for it

 

[ATP]

In other words, God hardened his heart for the first 5 or 6 plagues, and then pharoah just did it himself.

I dunno. In Exodus, it looks like Pharaoh hardened his heart first.

Ex 8:32 NIV But this time also Pharaoh hardened his heart and would not let the people go.
Ex 9:12 NIV But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said to Moses.

 

[FHII]

Folks, for anyone who seeks to look into this, you should shary at exodus 4:21. Start at the beginning if you have time, but I think you at least see where I'm coming from.