How can you KNOW that you are saved and part of the elect?

[Johann]

Yes. And God draws ALL MEN to Christ through the Gospel. No one is excluded, until they exclude themselves. If all would believe all would be saved. And since the Holy Spirit is given as a gift to all who repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, He is the one who is the "inner witness".

Ah the doctrine of election, not popular in this world, tell me, what is this "witnessing together with your spirit?"

Act_15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;

Rom_8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

συμμαρτυρεῖ
Tense: Present,<
Voice: Active<
Mood: Indicative<
...a daily continuous experience, not so?
Person: third [he/she/it]
Number: Singular


Summartureo
- Phonetic: soom-mar-too-reh’-o
- Definition:
1. to bear witness with, bear joint witness
- Origin: from G4862 and G3140
- TDNT entry: 12:28,6
- Part(s) of speech: Verb
- Strong’s: From G4862 and G3140; to testify jointly that is corroborate by (concurrent) evidence: - testify unto (also) bear witness (with).
Total KJV Occurrences: 4
• testify, 1
Rev_22:18
• with, 1
Rom_8:16
• witness, 2
Rom_2:15; Rom_9:1

How does the Holy Spirit συμμαρτυρεῖ with our spirit?

 

[Johann]

For in the multitude of dreams and many words there are also divers vanities: but fear thou God. (Eccl 5:7)

By the "volume of words" you mean scriptures?
How can scripture references be vanity?
Please explain this one to me


Verse 7 declares that in the many words and illusions of men under the sun there are also many vanities. The great need of men is to so reverence God that the inclination for vain utterances will be restrained, Ecc_12:13; Pro_1:7; Pro_9:10.

Surely this has no reference to quoting scriptures

 

[Johann]

I need to tell you a story that I once heard and which I found pertinent.

A preacher had come to town for some revival meetings. He advertised far and near and set up his tent in eager anticipation of a crowd.
The appointed time came and the tent was still empty so with patience he waited....and waited. Eventually a lone cowboy turned up and took a seat in the front row. The preacher waited a while longer but that was it, nobody else showed up so he figured one was better than none and so he started his sermon. Ten minutes in, fifteen minutes in, half an hour in...the cowboy sat there listening....forty five minutes in and he (the preacher) was on a roll. Ninety minutes went by and he eventually wound up. Looking down at the cowboy the preacher asked, 'well cowboy, what did you think of that? The cowboy looks up a bit bewildered and replies, 'well, I'm not not really sure because I'm just a cowboy but what I do know is this, if I went out to feed my cows and only one turned up, I would feed it, I wouldn't dump the whole load on it!

De ja vu...
Sometimes multiple threads with the same theme overlapping..
Having the same kind of discusiion in another place.

So what of this then, what is Paul saying?

Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

also:
Phl 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

If God wills in you to do, then how can one exclude themselves from what God wills them to do?

Hugs

Guess what Ziggy, still learning to navigate on this forum, too many bells and whistles and when you ask a question I don't see a "red light"

Phl 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

When a minister preach the gospel, are ALL under conviction that they are sinners in need of a Saviour?


Php 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Should you read carefully not ALL are confessing that Christ Jesus is Lord, that WILL happen in at the parousia of Mashiach


Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
Rom 9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
Rom 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
Rom 9:28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
Rom 9:29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.


2Ti 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
2Ti 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

Ziggy, the doctrine of election is right here in front of you, am I promulgating lies, falsehood or the absolute truth as it stands written in Scripture?

This includes all those who think they are saved but deny Him in their style of life.

 

[Ziggy]

Guess what Ziggy, still learning to navigate on this forum, too many bells and whistles and when you ask a question I don't see a "red light"

My fault, this was in reference to what Enoch had posted.
I'm having a discussion in another thread about free will.
Sorry about the confusion
hugs

I had this in my signature on another forum, it was a political one. And it seemed like everywhere I posted I was getting trolled real bad.
So I used this LOL

Me trying to Navigate the Forum:

HAHAHA
Hugs

 

[Johann]

My fault, this was in reference to what Enoch had posted.
I'm having a discussion in another thread about free will.
Sorry about the confusion
hugs

I had this in my signature on another forum, it was a political one. And it seemed like everywhere I posted I was getting trolled real bad.
So I used this LOL

Me trying to Navigate the Forum:

HAHAHA
Hugs

Like my dad used to say...don't get involved in politics

 

[Ziggy]

Like my dad used to say...don't get involved in politics

Can't help it, it's like the left hand to the right hand of religion.
Imagine a world with no politics..
No Nimrod's, no Pharoah's, no Kings, no judges, no courts, no laws...

What a wonderful world it would be...
or would it?
not crazy about lawlessness. I seen enough of it in 2020 to fill that cup.
Hugs

 

[Johann]

Can't help it, it's like the left hand to the right hand of religion.
Imagine a world with no politics..
No Nimrod's, no Pharoah's, no Kings, no judges, no courts, no laws...

What a wonderful world it would be...
or would it?
not crazy about lawlessness. I seen enough of it in 2020 to fill that cup.
Hugs

Hmm...Mat_22:21 They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.


3) "Render therefore unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's," (apodote oun ta Kaisaros Kasari) "You all are therefore to render or give over to Caesar Caesar's things that relate to taxes for civil purposes. In this reply Jesus Christ's wisdom outwitted the crafty Herodians and Pharisees who sought His conviction as a lawbreaker, Mat_22:15; Luk_20:20.

4) "And unto God the things that are God's." (kai ta tou theou to theo) "And the things that are of God, things that relate to spiritual matters, you are to dole out or give over to God," for Divine worship and service. In essence Jesus said it is possible to be true to God while submitting to an heathen potentate or civil ruler, Mar_10:17; Luk_20:25.

Garner Howes

 

[Ziggy]

Hmm...Mat_22:21 They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.


3) "Render therefore unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's," (apodote oun ta Kaisaros Kasari) "You all are therefore to render or give over to Caesar Caesar's things that relate to taxes for civil purposes. In this reply Jesus Christ's wisdom outwitted the crafty Herodians and Pharisees who sought His conviction as a lawbreaker, Mat_22:15; Luk_20:20.

4) "And unto God the things that are God's." (kai ta tou theou to theo) "And the things that are of God, things that relate to spiritual matters, you are to dole out or give over to God," for Divine worship and service. In essence Jesus said it is possible to be true to God while submitting to an heathen potentate or civil ruler, Mar_10:17; Luk_20:25.

Garner Howes

Ceasar is going to get rendered no doubt. By God himself.

So when Jesus tells us to "watch" should we close our eyes to what's happening in the world?
I simply observe it, I'm not a part of it.
All things are God's whether spiritual or manifested.
The problem with Israel is that they weren't watching. They didn't recognize the "signs" concerning the passover. That was a big one they missed.
And we probably will miss a big one too if we're not watching.

When ye see these things begin to happen....
I been seeing them beginning for at least 5 years now. But they are getting harder and faster.. kind of like birth pangs if you will.
Time is short.

Whenever there is a great famine, what follows is people being led into captivity. And they become enslaved to the system.
Both of these are on our very doorstep as we speak.
And if we're not watching, we're going to get scooped up and dragged into Babylon.
And Babylon is going to burn.
Remember Lot's wife?
RUN and don't look back.
and PRAY.
Hugs

 

[Johann]

Ceasar is going to get rendered no doubt. By God himself.

So when Jesus tells us to "watch" should we close our eyes to what's happening in the world?
I simply observe it, I'm not a part of it.
All things are God's whether spiritual or manifested.
The problem with Israel is that they weren't watching. They didn't recognize the "signs" concerning the passover. That was a big one they missed.
And we probably will miss a big one too if we're not watching.

When ye see these things begin to happen....
I been seeing them beginning for at least 5 years now. But they are getting harder and faster.. kind of like birth pangs if you will.
Time is short.

Whenever there is a great famine, what follows is people being led into captivity. And they become enslaved to the system.
Both of these are on our very doorstep as we speak.
And if we're not watching, we're going to get scooped up and dragged into Babylon.
And Babylon is going to burn.
Remember Lot's wife?
RUN and don't look back.
and PRAY.
Hugs

Listen to Pilgrims Progress, there are three versions on Youtube.

 

[Johann]

Listen to Pilgrims Progress, there are three versions on Youtube.

There is also the Screw tape letters by Lewis,...

 

[Ziggy]

Listen to Pilgrims Progress, there are three versions on Youtube.

I really liked the book. But I don't have it anymore and I have trouble with reading print.
I only have one good eye, and that one is growing weaker every year.

I still have the tab up for that version I posted. I haven't had breakfast yet, and I don't knw when I'll get around to lunch.
But I'm hoping I'll get around to watching it sometime today.

 

[Ziggy]

There is also the Screw tape letters by Lewis,...

Never heard of that. I'll check it out.
Thank You

 

[Johann]

I really liked the book. But I don't have it anymore and I have trouble with reading print.
I only have one good eye, and that one is growing weaker every year.

I still have the tab up for that version I posted. I haven't had breakfast yet, and I don't knw when I'll get around to lunch.
But I'm hoping I'll get around to watching it sometime today.

I am really sorry Ziggy, how unthoughtful of me, I will stop pushing, I promise.
J.

 

[quietthinker]

But I'm hoping I'll get around to watching it sometime today.

do it! :)

 

[Ziggy]

do it! :)

I did !
And it was alright.

Hugs

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

1Jn_5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.



1) "These things have I written." (Greek tauta agrapsa) These things I wrote or "have written". The "these things" refers to the subject matter of the letter constituting evidences by which one might know and the world know that one was saved, and might have full joy. 1Jn_1:4.

2) "Unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God" (tois) unto or directed to or toward those trusting in the name of the heir or Son of God.

3) "That ye may know that ye have eternal life." (Greek hina) in order that, or for the purpose that, (eidete) you all may know, perceive, or comprehend “ye have, hold or possess eternal life." The terms know, known, and knoweth are used more than twenty times in 1Jo as verifying affirmations that the born Sons of God possessed life of eternal kind nature. It is just as possible for a saved person to know that he is saved as for an unsaved person to know he is unsaved and just as logical. 1Jn_3:2; 1Jn_3:14; 1Jn_4:7; 1Jn_4:13; 1Jn_4:15; 2Co_5:1.

RESTING ON CERTAINTIES

When that Christian and scientist, Sir Michael Faraday, was dying, some journalists questioned him as to his speculations concerning the soul and death "Speculations!" said the dying man, in astonishment, 'I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him against that day."

- Gospel Trumpet

4) "And that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." "to believe" on is to rely, trust, or depend on the offers and promises of the Son of God. Joh_6:37; Mat_11:28-30. Joh_14:1-3; Heb_13:3-5; Heb_10:36-37; Rom_10:8-13.

That ye may know (hina eidēte). Purpose clause with hina and the second perfect active subjunctive of oida, to know with settled intuitive knowledge. He wishes them to have eternal life in Christ (Joh_20:31) and to know that they have it, but not with flippant superficiality (1Jn_2:3.).
Unto you that believe on (tois pisteuousin eis). Dative of the articular present active participle of pisteuō and eis as in 1Jn_5:10. For this use of onoma (name) with pisteuō see 1Jn_3:23; Joh_2:23.

1Jn_5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.


We are of God (ἐκ τοῦ Θεοῦ ἐσμέν)
For the phrase εἷναι ἐκ to be from, see on Joh_1:46. For ἐσμέν we are, see on 1Jn_3:1. John expresses the relation of believers to God by the following phrases: To be born or begotten of God, γεννηθῆναι ἐκ τοῦ Θεοῦ (1Jn_5:1; 1Jn_2:29; 1Jn_4:7): denoting the initial communication of the new life. To be of God, εἷναι ἐκ τοῦ Θεοῦ (Joh_8:47; 1Jn_3:10; 1Jn_4:6): denoting the essential connection in virtue of the new life. Child of God, τέκνον Θεοῦ (Joh_1:12; 1Jn_3:1, 1Jn_3:10): denoting the relation established by the new life.
World (κόσμος)
See on Joh_1:9.
Lieth (κεῖται)
The word is stronger than ἐστι is, indicating the passive, unprogressive state in the sphere of Satan's influence. “While we are from God, implying a birth and a proceeding forth, and a change of state, the κόσμος the world, all the rest of mankind, remains in the hand of the evil one” (Alford).
In wickedness (ἐν τῷ πονηρῷ)
Rev., better, in the evil one. The expression to lie in has a parallel in Sophocles' “Antigone:”
ἐν ὑμῖν γὰρ ὡς Θεῷ
κείμεθα τλάμονες
“Wretched we lie in you as in a god” (247).


1) "And we know that we are of God." He who is saved can know, be assured that he is saved, and know who his earthly father is. Experimentally, personally, one can know that he is saved, a child of God. Testamentarily, he can know he is saved by the inner witness of God's Spirit, and thru evidence of changed lives he can know that he and others are saved.

Ah! The inner witness...what is that?

Rom_8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

1) "The Spirit itself," (auto to pneuma) "The Spirit himself (itself);" the indwelling Spirit in the believer, 1Jn_4:13; Joh_16:8-11; Eph_1:5; Eph_1:13-14; 2Co_1:22; 2Co_5:5.

2) "Beareth witness with our spirit," (summarteurei to Pneumati hemon) "witnesses in harmony with our spirit," or tells our spirit, bears testimony by the fruit of peace and joy that he brings to our spirits, our consciousness of will and affection for God and holiness, Gal_5:22-23; Rom_5:5.

3) "That we are the children of God," (hoti esmen Tekna theou) "that we are (now exist as) children of God," not merely candidates for childhood to him, 1Jn_5:10; 1Jn_5:13. One does not have to wait till he dies to become a child of God or to know that he is a child of God, Joh_1:11-12; 1Jn_3:1-2; 1Jn_3:10; Gal_3:26.


Do you have this inner witness?

I like that exegesis for a change. I can't do it. I just have faith in the numerous translations labored over by hundreds of brilliant scholars throughtout the centuries. I use a half dozen major ones, even YLT. Your topic brought a few things to mind right off and you mentioned it, Romans 8:16. Then there is the idea that God draws all men to Himself. He calls us and we answer the call. We read and listened to the Word and it penetrated. He persuaded us of the truth. I like that, "to know with intuitive knowledge". When you channel God's voice, "You ought to go this way", or You should do this or not," you sense intuituvely that it is God because at times you struggle with His voice, resist it, analize and go a different way to your demise. We learn to listen.
Everyone's testimony is different. But for me, I was drawn, called and answered the call. He orchestrated events and people He sent into my life that led me to that divine appointment. Wow, it was beyond a doubt, obvious in that moment that God was real and He had been there watching and guiding me over me all along. And then our world view changes, the the light went in and we see things we couldn't before - be ause we realize we were blind. At the time He calls, He has already prepared your heart. You come to him in humility, like a child, curious, hungry for the truth. You also come in godly sorrow when you realize your sinful state and need for a Savior. So you begin to hate sin all around and sin in your own life. Jesus is the cure and we find out that He is our only solution. Life seems to have more purpose and meaning. Even the pain and suffering makes sense. Evil - we can't really appreciated good unless we know the oppositie. I have a relationship, I am in LOVE. All that is how I know.

 

[Johann]

I like that exegesis for a change. I can't do it. I just have faith in the numerous translations labored over by hundreds of scholars. I use a half dozen major ones, even YLT. Your topic brought a few things to mind right off and you mentioned it, Romans 8:16. Then there is the idea that God draws all men to Himself. He calls us and we answer the call. We did. We read and listened to the Word and it penetrated and He persuaded us of the truth. I like that, "to know with intuitive knowledge". Everyone's testimony is different. But for me, I was drawn and called and answered the call. He orchestrated events and people He sent into my life that led me to that divine appointment. Wow, it was beyond a doubt, obvious in that moment that God was real and He had been there watching over me all along and guiding me. And then you see the world with a different perspective. At the time He calls, He has already prepared your heart. You come to him in humility, like a child, curious, hungry for the truth. You also come in godly sorrow when you realize your sinful state and need for a Savior. So you begin to hate sin all around and sin in your own life. Jesus is the cure and we find out that He is our only solution. Life seems to have more purpose and meaning. Even the pain and suffering makes sense. Evil - we can't really appreciated good unless we know the oppositie. I have a relationship, I am in LOVE. All that is how I know.

Powerful Ronald

 

[Ziggy]

I just seen something...

Deu 4:37 And because he loved thy fathers, therefore he chose their seed after them, and brought thee out in his sight with his mighty power out of Egypt;

he chose "their seed" after them.

There is a verse in Genesis:
Gen 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:

But Adam and Eve and Cain and Abel:
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Gen 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.

Of Seth is said:
Gen 4:25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.

appointed:
שִׁית shîyth, sheeth; a primitive root; to place (in a very wide application):—apply, appoint, array, bring, consider, lay (up), let alone, × look, make, mark, put (on), regard, set, shew, be stayed, × take.
to put, set

hmm.. grizzle.. chew chew..

Luk 2:34 And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against;

this child is set for a sign.... appointed.
For it is appointed unto man once to die, but after this the judgment.

Act 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

And who is Seth???
šēṯ
Seth = "compensation"

The KJV translates Strong's H7896 in the following manner: set (23x), made (19x), lay (13x), put (11x), appoint (3x), regard (2x), miscellaneous (14x).

Gen 3:15 And I will put H7896 enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

hmm..

Adam created in the image and likeness of God, fallen. Seth created in the image and likeness of Adam.

Seth is the seed of the sons of man.

And I will put enmity between the Sons of God and the sons of Man.
For my Spirit will not always strive with man for he is also flesh.
This is now flesh of my flesh and bone of my bone...

Why is there always so little mentioned about the characters that are in the transition between dark and light?
Very frustrating....

So I'm just tossing some fruit salad.

Because he loved thy fathers, therefore he chose "their" seed after "them".
Not his seed after himself, but their seed after them.

Not God after God's own heart, but man after man's own heart.
The enmity between the spirit and the flesh.
Seth, set, appointed seed.

Ye are of your father the devil...
What is the devil?
The adversary of God. The dark versus the light. The night versus the day.
Those who have the spirit of God in them, and those who do not.
I have come to bring a sword dividing bone from marrow...

Whatsoever God hath joined together let no man take apart.

random fruit cocktail thoughts..

I have not come to save the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Well who sinned?
Adam sinned, Cain sinned.
Both the sons of God and the sons of man are ALL guilty of sin.

Adam the adversarial man failed. Jesus the Son of God prevailed.

I've only had 1 cup of coffee so far.
Time for a refresher.

Hugs

 

[Johann]

Never heard of that. I'll check it out.
Thank You

There is also the Screw tape letters by Lewis,...on second thought, forget I have mentioned it Ziggy

Blessings

 

[Rita]

What’s wrong with the screw tape letters, it’s a really interesting read x