How are we to reckon ourselves as being dead to sin?

[Johann]

Another one with limited bible reading experience.

Weaning is scriptural. Read Ps. 131. Much of what religious people claim from the NT is actually just at an OT level of walk. No different than the Jews who also walk in their own strength. Ask any Jew is they have seen any Christian walk in a more righteous manner than they can.

On the contrary--you have no Scriptural experience and poor reading comprehension.

Rom 6:6 τοῦτοG3778|D-ASN|this γινώσκοντεςG1097|G5723|V-PAP-NPM|knowing, ὅτιG3754|ADV|that ὁG3588|T-NSM|- παλαιὸςG3820|A-NSM|old ἡμῶνG1473|P-1GP|of us ἄνθρωποςG444|N-NSM|self συνεσταυρώθηG4957|G5681|V-API-3S|was crucified with [Him], ἵναG2443|CONJ|so that καταργηθῇG2673|G5686|V-APS-3S|might be annulled τὸG3588|T-NSN|the σῶμαG4983|N-NSN|body τῆςG3588|T-GSF|- ἁμαρτίαςG266|N-GSF|of sin, τοῦG3588|T-GSN|[that] μηκέτιG3371|ADV|no longer δουλεύεινG1398|G5721|V-PAN|are enslaved ἡμᾶςG1473|P-1AP|we τῇG3588|T-DSF|- ἁμαρτίᾳG266|N-DSF|to sin.

συνεσταυρώθη--Aorist Passive--a decisive point in time--no weaning process here, and take note of the Sun---

 

[Episkopos]

Ditto.

2) "That our old man is crucified with him," (hoti ho palaios hemon anthropos sunestaurothe) "That the old (man) or person of us was crucified with him," and now is to exist as dead (barren, unfruitful, unproductive). We are to feed, exercise, cultivate the old desires and passions no more, but to keep them subdued, bridled, under subjection, 1Co_9:26-27; Rom_12:1-2; Col_1:1-3.

συνεσταυρώθη--Verb, Aorist, Passive--a decisive point in time, no "weaning process" here, I find many are not using the Scriptures and are happy to philosophize with mere empty words.

You would read...is BEING crucified (slowly) with Him. Come on, you have to try agreeing with the bible lady now!

Why can't you see how you contradict yourself over and over to try agreeing with people who have very little understanding? (as you also do, of course)

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You are comparing self with self here. No one is crucified one cell at a time. Purity is an instant gift of grace through faith. Don't confuse being weaned of the flesh...a gradual thing...with being crucified by heavenly power.

We are weaned FROM something....not TO something.

then why are you not yet pure? Why are you followers not yet Pure?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You would read...is BEING crucified (slowly) with Him. Come on, you have to try agreeing with the bible lady now!

Why can't you see how you contradict yourself over and over to try agreeing with people who have very little understanding? (as you also do, of course)

no we are crucified at once. having our sins washed away

And are in the process of being crucified daily, as we rely on his power to grow us.

 

[Episkopos]

On the contrary--you have no Scriptural experience and poor reading comprehension.

Rom 6:6 τοῦτοG3778|D-ASN|this γινώσκοντεςG1097|G5723|V-PAP-NPM|knowing, ὅτιG3754|ADV|that ὁG3588|T-NSM|- παλαιὸςG3820|A-NSM|old ἡμῶνG1473|P-1GP|of us ἄνθρωποςG444|N-NSM|self συνεσταυρώθηG4957|G5681|V-API-3S|was crucified with [Him], ἵναG2443|CONJ|so that καταργηθῇG2673|G5686|V-APS-3S|might be annulled τὸG3588|T-NSN|the σῶμαG4983|N-NSN|body τῆςG3588|T-GSF|- ἁμαρτίαςG266|N-GSF|of sin, τοῦG3588|T-GSN|[that] μηκέτιG3371|ADV|no longer δουλεύεινG1398|G5721|V-PAN|are enslaved ἡμᾶςG1473|P-1AP|we τῇG3588|T-DSF|- ἁμαρτίᾳG266|N-DSF|to sin.

συνεσταυρώθη--Aorist Passive--a decisive point in time--no weaning process here, and take note of the Sun---

LOL. Tit for tat eh? That's all you have. All the verse breakdowns in the world doesn't make them descriptive of your own condition.

You KNOW you are not crucified. You can try convincing yourself...but that's it. You would have to be truly crucified with Christ for people around you to notice how you are very different from other ego-seekers.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

LOL. Tit for tat eh? That's all you have. All the verse breakdowns in the world doesn't make them descriptive of your own condition.

You KNOW you are not crucified. You can try convincing yourself...but that's it. You would have to be truly crucified with Christ for people around you to notice how you are very different from other ego-seekers.

once again

same thing could be said to you

why do you think you are so perfect and anyone who disagrees with you is wrong?

where is your humility?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Oh I'm sorry to hear about your marriage troubles. I know it's not easy at the best of times. Married couples should try not to argue about "meats", whether they are true or not. Different people grow in different ways and at different rates, so learn to be patient and accepting of differences....avoid non-essential issues that cause contention. Advice for women is to be submissive in demeanour and to win husbands "without a word". Husbands need to rise above differences and love their wives sacrificially. This is all necessary for harmony in the home. Love does not insist that you both have to think identically about everything. Just try to keep it about Christ and Him crucified and be thankful your lives are not yoked to someone living in darkness.

Thank you for your help. I realize this may have been betrayal to have spoken openly on the board. This is the closest I have to anything resembling a gathering of sorts, probably not the best place for it. But I still believe nothing gets worked out in secret. I am tired of being secretive and hush hush about it. Yes I can acknowledge keeping it behind closed doors, but sometimes I want to scream.

 

[Episkopos]

Look at the result of all these "seeker-friendly" churches. They have let in untold numbers of ego-seekers come in to the point that they must be catered to to keep up the numbers. So these continue to whine and rant at how crucified they are...because they have learned to practice naming and claiming all the good sounding verses in the bible. Any verse that actually describes their true condition is seen as being for someone else....certainly not for them. How convenient! Quoting these verses to them is taken as a personal attack. Meanwhile those warnings are given in LOVE from the Lord to rescue people from judgment. The part of a person that gets offended is the shallow outer man..who rejoices quickly until the truth is declared.

Is there any hope for these spoiled ones? Can they be reverse engineered to become humble...self-effacing, kind, meek, courteous, wise, God-fearing and knowledgeable?

 

[Johann]

You would read...is BEING crucified (slowly) with Him. Come on, you have to try agreeing with the bible lady now!

Why can't you see how you contradict yourself over and over to try agreeing with people who have very little understanding? (as you also do, of course)

WAS crucified--Aorist, Passive, Indicative

τουτο γινωσκοντες οτι ο παλαιος ημων ανθρωπος συνεσταυρωθη ινα καταργηθη το σωμα της αμαρτιας του μηκετι δουλευειν ημας τη αμαρτια

Knowing this (cf. ἢ ἀγνοεῖτε, Rom_6:3), that our old man was (not is, as in the Authorized Version) crucified with him that the body of sin might be destroyed (or abolished, or done away, καταργήθῃ), that henceforth we should not serve (δουλεύειν, expressing bondage, or slavery; and so throughout the chapter in the word δοῦλοι, translated "servants") sin. For he that hath died is freed from sin. The word "crucified" has, of course, reference to the mode of Christ’s death into which we were baptized. It does not imply anything further (as some have supposed) as to the manner of our own spiritual dying, such as painfulness or lingering; it merely means that in his death our old man died (cf. Col_2:14, προφηλώσας αὐτὸ τῷ σταυρῷ

Seems you need a lesson in Koine Greek and Hebrew, the Grammar and Syntax and morphologies.

And your ad hominem attacks flies over my head as you stand exposed on your own thread--your "experience" supersede the Scriptures which you, of all people, is not using at all.

Having da’as of this, that, with Moshiach, our old humanity (in Adam) has been put to death on Moshiach's Etz (Tree [the Etz HaKelelat Hashem, the Tree of the Curse of G-d--DEVARIM 21:23]) in order that the etsem HaAdam HaChet (the essence of the sinful human condition) might be done away with, so that we might no longer serve Chet (sin) (cf.Ro 6:23].

The one here contradicting himself is you, over and over again, and with your back pinned to a wall you have really nothing left but to react--since you do not read, or have problems reading.
J.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Look at the result of all these "seeker-friendly" churches. They have let in untold numbers of ego-seekers come in to the point that they must be catered to to keep up the numbers. So these continue to whine and rant at how crucified they are...because they have learned to practice naming and claiming all the good sounding verses in the bible. Any verse that actually describes their true condition is seen as being for someone else....certainly not for them. How convenient! Quoting these verses to them is taken as a personal attack. Meanwhile those warnings are given in LOVE from the Lord to rescue people from judgment. The part of a person that gets offended is the shallow outer man..who rejoices quickly until the truth is declared.

Is there any hope for these spoiled ones? Can they be reverse engineered to become humble...self-effacing, kind, meek, courteous, wise, God-fearing and knowledgeable?

I would worry about your self righteous attitude before I worry about what other people are doing..

and PS. you can quote verses all you want. that is never an attack, And if you think that is what we think you again bear false witness.

especially when you the one who gets angry when people disagree with you

 

[marks]

Regardless of what that looks like, is it wrong to hope in God saying He has made room for me in my husbands heart? To hope for that? Regardless if I’m met with resistance. Would it be wrong for my husband to hope God has made room in my heart for him. Regardless of if he is met with resistance?

Not at all wrong!! I think this is the heart that pleases God.

Much love!

 

[Johann]

LOL. Tit for tat eh? That's all you have. All the verse breakdowns in the world doesn't make them descriptive of your own condition.

You KNOW you are not crucified. You can try convincing yourself...but that's it. You would have to be truly crucified with Christ for people around you to notice how you are very different from other ego-seekers.

You're back pinned to a wall, on your thread, and still not using Scriptures?
I can tell your "rapture" to wherever and hearing voices which is ABOVE the written word--this your "experience" is ABOVE the written word and the Imperative to "study Hebrew and Greek"--yet ignorant even there?

So where did these "voices" come from?

I was co-crucified with Christ--no lingering process and you want to tell me that is not a reality in my life?

Get real, or get a vocation/vacation--you need it.

 

[marks]

On the contrary--you have no Scriptural experience and poor reading comprehension.

Rom 6:6 τοῦτοG3778|D-ASN|this γινώσκοντεςG1097|G5723|V-PAP-NPM|knowing, ὅτιG3754|ADV|that ὁG3588|T-NSM|- παλαιὸςG3820|A-NSM|old ἡμῶνG1473|P-1GP|of us ἄνθρωποςG444|N-NSM|self συνεσταυρώθηG4957|G5681|V-API-3S|was crucified with [Him], ἵναG2443|CONJ|so that καταργηθῇG2673|G5686|V-APS-3S|might be annulled τὸG3588|T-NSN|the σῶμαG4983|N-NSN|body τῆςG3588|T-GSF|- ἁμαρτίαςG266|N-GSF|of sin, τοῦG3588|T-GSN|[that] μηκέτιG3371|ADV|no longer δουλεύεινG1398|G5721|V-PAN|are enslaved ἡμᾶςG1473|P-1AP|we τῇG3588|T-DSF|- ἁμαρτίᾳG266|N-DSF|to sin.

συνεσταυρώθη--Aorist Passive--a decisive point in time--no weaning process here, and take note of the Sun---

I'm not seeing any indication @Episkopos has poor reading comprehension. I think he fully knows what these passages teach, and that's why he never addresses them. He knows they fully refute his teaching.

Much love!

 

[marks]

1 Peter 3:15-16 KJV
15) But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
16) Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.

Much love!

 

[marks]

1 Timothy 1:4-7 KJV
4) Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.
5) Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
6) From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
7) Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.

Much love!

 

[marks]

1 Timothy 4:15 KJV
15) Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all.

Much love!

 

[Johann]

1 Timothy 4:15 KJV
15) Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all.

Much love!

Shalom marks--late here.
J.

 

[marks]

Shalom marks--late here.
J.

Shalom!!

Much love!

 

[Lizbeth]

Another one with limited bible reading experience.

Weaning is scriptural. Read Ps. 131. Much of what religious people claim from the NT is actually just at an OT level of walk. No different than the Jews who also walk in their own strength. Ask any Jew is they have seen any Christian walk in a more righteous manner than they can.

Believing in something about heaven and walking on a heavenly level are VERY different things.

I believe in astronauts...but I have never been beyond the physical pull of gravity. Many here claim to be crucified...because they read it in the bible. But in truth????

It's not like being weaned from the flesh is a bad thing. It is a good thing. Don't get me wrong. It's all we have when we are absent from the Lord...walking in our own strength.

By claiming to be more than we are we just invite a future eternal judgment. I hope it feels good to claim all the good stuff...enjoy it now..since many already have their reward.

The captain of our salvation was made perfect by suffering. Instant death is not suffering. Jesus began His suffering in Gethsemane when He was counting the cost, and then was tried, and following that was mocked and beaten, and horribly scourged to within an inch of his life, and then had to carry His cross in that condition, until the suffering of being nailed to it, after which He continued in agony dying for three hours after being nailed to it and lifted up on it. And only then did He finally give up the ghost. How do you understand the "little by little" of that passage in Exodus 23?

And how many times have we had to count the cost to stick to the narrow way like Jesus in Gethsemane when an "easy way" was offered to us? There is an ongoing aspect to these things, not just a one time event.

I don't know how to understand your experiences with the Lord. I don't consider "experiences", though precious, to be permanent in this life, but foretastes of the powers of the world to come, which the bible does speak of. You said you are not currently walking in the Spirit....are you distinguishing walking in the spirit from heavenly experiences and visions? and also, does it mean you were crucified but are currently un-crucified, since you are not currently in the spirit, according to how you are understanding it?

Getting tired so will have to leave it there for now.

 

[Lizbeth]

Ditto.

2) "That our old man is crucified with him," (hoti ho palaios hemon anthropos sunestaurothe) "That the old (man) or person of us was crucified with him," and now is to exist as dead (barren, unfruitful, unproductive). We are to feed, exercise, cultivate the old desires and passions no more, but to keep them subdued, bridled, under subjection, 1Co_9:26-27; Rom_12:1-2; Col_1:1-3.

συνεσταυρώθη--Verb, Aorist, Passive--a decisive point in time, no "weaning process" here, I find many are not using the Scriptures and are happy to philosophize with mere empty words.

Yes we have been crucified with Him, our inner man of the spirit.....but now I believe it is our soul-life that needs to be crucified and die and that is what denying self and carrying our cross is working in us. That is what working out our salvation is all about....has to do with walking out what has already been done in the inner man, through the crucifying of our soul-life (psuche - flesh nature)...as I understand it. This is why Jesus said we need to allow for the washing of our feet, ie, soul/psuche....even though we have had the bath and are every whit clean otherwise.

John 12:23-26

And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

He that loveth his life (Gk - psuche) shall lose it; and he that hateth his life (psuche) in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.



Mat 16:24-26

Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

For whosoever will save his life (Gk - psuche) shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life (psuche) for my sake shall find it.

For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul (pusche)? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul (psuche)?

A couple of things in these passages I noticed here - one is that the Greek word for "life" is psuche or psyche, meaning soul. Our soul-life. The other thing is to see how losing our soul-life is being correlated to Jesus' death on the cross, as well as us carrying our crosses and following Him. We are losing our soul-life in order to save it....that is what it means to carry our crosses and follow Jesus.......just as He died on the cross, and we follow in His footsteps, our soul-life is being crucified in the process of working out our salvation.

Shalom and have a good rest, we can come back to this tomorrow.