Homosexuality: Is it the way a person is born?

[zeke25]

"it does not appear in Genesis 29:30 as you claim." My bad. It's the very next verse, Genesis 29:31 that uses the word "hate" (Strong's 8130)

"I find nothing in Romans 11 that gives Esau salvation" I didn't say it did. In fact, I said it had nothing to do with salvation. Read point #3 again in my post.

"I would suggest that your ever present goal of denying Almighty God the range of emotions and feelings that He is entitled to exercise and still remain righteous, is little more than wishful thinking on your part." Shame on you for such an arrogant comment. I thought we were discussing scripture, not me.

Thank you.

I'm new here, and I get the feeling there are some really nasty people here... they start off all polite, then BAM! They start attacking their fellow posters!

I'm looking for a place to discuss God's Word with others... what a shame that what I see on secular political blogs is also prevalent on a Christian blog...

I've been reading your posts, and I'm sure we can have some good lively discussion seeking the Truth. Thanks for staying on topic. :)

DogLady19,

Sorry about missing Genesis 29:31, I should have caught that and not made an issue of it. Nevertheless, I do not agree that the word definition supports a "love - less" scenario.

DogLady said: "2) When God said he hated Esau, he was saying that he rejected him as the line that would produce God's Chosen, Israel. The rejection of Esau is temporal, not eternal. 3) The subject in Romans 9 is not about our salvation. It's about Israel."

Zeke's response: So, I have no right to disagree with you? The rejection of Esau certainly appears eternal. If you can show me some supporting Scriptures to the contrary that would be helpful. And Romans 9:13 and the connection to Malachi 1:3 means that the discussion was on "hating" and "Esau". Our discussion was not regarding the chosen line of Jacob. If you want to switch horses in mid-stream, don't lay that on me.

So now I am arrogant because I point out the obvious. This discussion is about the Scriptures and its also about your interpretation of the Scriptures, which is consistent. You have a preconceived disposition to refuse to accept that God might actually hate someone. This doesn't mean that I am attacking you. I am disagreeing with your interpretations. I do not find your position supportable with the Scriptures. I'm being frank, not nasty. If you only want to dialogue with those who agree with you, hook-line-and-sinker, then you probably don't want to talk with me anymore. But it begs the question: Why are you here?

I am here to dialogue and learn. I don't expect to find total agreement with everyone on everything. And I'm certainly not going to cry foul, every time someone disagrees with me. In fact, I post things some times begging for disagreement. I want the opposition to prove me wrong. If they can, then I need to rethink what I've written and believe. If they can't prove me wrong with Scriptures, then that strengthens my position. Iron sharpens iron, does it not?

It was nice of StanJ to weigh in and give you his mistaken opinion about me. (Since he complimented you, I guess it is okay for him to make personal observations unrelated to the subject, but I'm a nasty boo-boo and falsely accused by you of making a personal attack even though I didn't make personal attacks against you). Nevertheless,it gives me the opportunity to explain that StanJ has a serious case of the "tail wagging the dog". He doesn't get his doctrine from the Bible. He gets his doctrine from Bible Commentaries, Lexicons, and his scholars of choice. Once that is settled, then he applies all of that information to explain what the Bible should mean and that the Bible must come into agreement with these extra-biblical doctrines or be found wanting. It has never occurred to him, that the Bible determines word definitions and doctrines, and that the commentaries, lexicons, and scholars must bow to the authority of Scriptures. But since he has no spiritual discernment about the Bible, he has no choice but to resort to the "tail" and "wag" the dog with it. And don't ask for any examples. You said you read his stuff, go find your own examples.

Zeke25

 

[DogLady19]

...

The only thing I plan on doing at this point is getting back on topic. I am on this thread to discuss homosexuality, which God really hates and wants everyone who practices it to repent.

"We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God..." 1 Timothy 1:8-11

 

[StanJ]

Thank you.

I'm new here, and I get the feeling there are some really nasty people here... they start off all polite, then BAM! They start attacking their fellow posters!

I'm looking for a place to discuss God's Word with others... what a shame that what I see on secular political blogs is also prevalent on a Christian blog...

I've been reading your posts, and I'm sure we can have some good lively discussion seeking the Truth. Thanks for staying on topic. :)

Yes I must say this can be problematic for some and I get myself into trouble from time to time when I chastise some, but there are a lot of good people here. You know the old saying, "the squeaky wheel get's the most grease."
I have a friend who just joined then emailed me that he wanted to leave and I had to encourage him to stick with it here.

 

[zeke25]

The only thing I plan on doing at this point is getting back on topic. I am on this thread to discuss homosexuality, which God really hates and wants everyone who practices it to repent.

"We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God..." 1 Timothy 1:8-11

DogLady19,

Good plan. However, tangents frequently occur and need to be addressed, because those tangents often reveal the intent of a person's heart and how they interpret Scripture.

As far as homosexuality is concerned, it is a moot point. It has been settled thousands of years ago. I have no need to discuss it any further with like-minded people. Look at this thread, it was started OCT 2012. This is 2015. Has anything been accomplished? Has anyone been swayed from one side of the issue to the other? Has anyone repented? I doubt it seriously. No one repents on forums. They come to blow their own horns. Very few do otherwise, and I am one of the otherwise as I explained earlier.

If you are unsettled (?) in your final opinion on this topic, you have a plethora of opinions to choose from. But why choose from the opinions here? You have your Bible and prayer and the Holy Ghost. It appears to me that you might be unsettled, that's why it is important to settle the issue you have with love and hate. That's why I asked you a pertinent question that is relevant to this topic: Are you a universalist? If you are and as long as you are, you may never come in agreement with the Scriptures regarding homosexuality.

Look at it this way. You have a rock in your shoe. So, you take off your rubber boots (you're in wet country). If you see no rock, you put the boot back on and walk away with a limp because the rock is still there. You were unwilling to dig deeper. So, maybe you try again, this time the rubber boot and the shoe come off. Still no rock. Repeat. You need to dig deeper. So, you try it all again and this time shake out the shoe. Still no rock. Repeat. Why not try it again and this time take your sock off too, that's where the rock is. But most are unwillingly to be that honest with themselves and their agenda. You have to be willing to bear your soul to yourself and to God. If you're not willing to dig that deep, you will never get rid of the rock.

Zeke25

 

[DogLady19]

DogLady19,

Good plan. However, tangents frequently occur and need to be addressed, because those tangents often reveal the intent of a person's heart and how they interpret Scripture.

As far as homosexuality is concerned, it is a moot point. It has been settled thousands of years ago. I have no need to discuss it any further with like-minded people. Look at this thread, it was started OCT 2012. This is 2015. Has anything been accomplished? Has anyone been swayed from one side of the issue to the other? Has anyone repented? I doubt it seriously. No one repents on forums. They come to blow their own horns. Very few do otherwise, and I am one of the otherwise as I explained earlier.

If you are unsettled (?) in your final opinion on this topic, you have a plethora of opinions to choose from. But why choose from the opinions here? You have your Bible and prayer and the Holy Ghost. It appears to me that you might be unsettled, that's why it is important to settle the issue you have with love and hate. That's why I asked you a pertinent question that is relevant to this topic: Are you a universalist? If you are and as long as you are, you may never come in agreement with the Scriptures regarding homosexuality.

Look at it this way. You have a rock in your shoe. So, you take off your rubber boots (you're in wet country). If you see no rock, you put the boot back on and walk away with a limp because the rock is still there. You were unwilling to dig deeper. So, maybe you try again, this time the rubber boot and the shoe come off. Still no rock. Repeat. You need to dig deeper. So, you try it all again and this time shake out the shoe. Still no rock. Repeat. Why not try it again and this time take your sock off too, that's where the rock is. But most are unwillingly to be that honest with themselves and their agenda. You have to be willing to bear your soul to yourself and to God. If you're not willing to dig that deep, you will never get rid of the rock.

Zeke25

I am not "unsettled"... I already know how I feel about this issue, but many are not so settled, and I offer what I know in the hopes that it might help someone in their own journey for answers... But it is also a topic that is dear to my heart. In my line of work, I encounter many people living the homosexual lifestyle, and I have compassion for what that lifestyle does to them...

If you are correct that no one changes their minds on a forum, then I must be unique... I very often find another person's POV as a catalyst for me to look at my own heart a little closer. And I have changed my mind a few times.

And you do not know the hearts of others, so you can't be certain that others have not repented after reading the posts. Maybe they just aren't declaring their repentance on the forum.

I find discussions on any topic to be interesting at the human level. But I am experienced enough to know when someone is trying to take me on a tangent from which I see no benefit to my mind or my spirit.

And I am 100% NOT a universalist.

 

[ATP]

Lev 15:32 NIV These are the regulations for a man with a discharge, for anyone made unclean by an emission of semen,

 

[zeke25]

I am not "unsettled"... I already know how I feel about this issue, but many are not so settled, and I offer what I know in the hopes that it might help someone in their own journey for answers... But it is also a topic that is dear to my heart. In my line of work, I encounter many people living the homosexual lifestyle, and I have compassion for what that lifestyle does to them...

If you are correct that no one changes their minds on a forum, then I must be unique... I very often find another person's POV as a catalyst for me to look at my own heart a little closer. And I have changed my mind a few times.

And you do not know the hearts of others, so you can't be certain that others have not repented after reading the posts. Maybe they just aren't declaring their repentance on the forum.

I find discussions on any topic to be interesting at the human level. But I am experienced enough to know when someone is trying to take me on a tangent from which I see no benefit to my mind or my spirit.

And I am 100% NOT a universalist.

DogLady19,

Thank you for some plain talk. It helps me alot. I can deal better with that. I am glad to hear that you have experienced some repentance. And I agree, even though I rarely see it, it may be happening. I'll give a testimony of that in the next paragraph.

I remember two ladies that were hosting a Bible study I was running (through a local church) about 1986. A demonized man invaded the group and I expelled him. Then I let him know that if he wanted to discuss things further we could meet with the sponsoring church and the home bible studies pastor. Silly me, I was expecting the pastor to be mature enough to support me. Instead, he entertained this man's phone calls for a week before the meeting. This pastor broke a cardinal rule. When a meeting is called to bring someone to account, you absolutely do not allow any favoritism or extra meeting or secret meetings to take place with one side or the other (although there is a case to be made that it was me that he should have been consulting with, after all I was the church's representative, but definitely he broke every rule in the book by having discussions with the offender behind my back). Meanwhile, this offender continued to work the members of the bible study group as well as the stupid local pastor. So, after the meeting (in spite of the extraordinary testimonies that were given and the offender did not deny them he affirmed them) I walked away from the church alone, no longer an official bible study leader at that church, and the two ladies walked away with the offender with all three yelling I love you across the parking lot to me. I prayed for the ladies, then let it go. A divine meeting was arranged by the LORD one year later on a crowded (1000s of people) southern California beach. I came across the two ladies and they had wonderful testimonies. They never saw the offender after that day in the parking lot, they had tremendously increased their Bible study time, and had finished reading the Bible all the way through. They were over joyed to see me and share all of this with me. I was vindicated a year later in the sweetest most precious way. These ladies had not been held captive to the offender and they were remorseful of their prior actions and understood why I expelled him. So, yes, I agree with you. We never know how the LORD is going to work in people's lives that we've touched and given a true testimony to.

I'm also very, very familiar with homosexuals. I have known and loved many of them for many years (but I was not one of them). I am very familiar with the devastating lives they lead. But, this post is too long already. Maybe another time. I didn't deal with them on a professional level (only personal), it sounds as if maybe you do however.

Keep up the good work.

God bless you,
Zeke25

 

[KingJ]

Your diatribes are so and not at all related to the loving teachings of Jesus Christ. You are either with Jesus or you are against Him as there is no middle ground. If you therefore want to remain as part of an Anti-Christ group with your thinking and actions you are free to do so but I will remain with Jesus and His teachings to Love One Another Unconditionally, that is, without any conditions.

I think this smile applies to all your posts here.

You are not interested in what the bible says nor judging yourself in fear and trembling. You think those smiling and throwing petals at you whilst you drown and die in your sin, love you? That is as warped as your approval / discernment of the sin.

What working brain will think that God wanted them female when He made them male.... :wacko:. ''Dear Lord I fear and respect you....but I hate the fact that you put me in a male body when you knew I like males''. Please accept my lifestyle choice I have absolute (ly ZERO) respect for you. h34r: h34r:

 

[LightMessenger]

I think this smile applies to all your posts here.

You are not interested in what the bible says nor judging yourself in fear and trembling. You think those smiling and throwing petals at you whilst you drown and die in your sin, love you? That is as warped as your approval / discernment of the sin.

What working brain will think that God wanted them female when He made them male.... :wacko:. ''Dear Lord I fear and respect you....but I hate the fact that you put me in a male body when you knew I like males''. Please accept my lifestyle choice I have absolute (ly ZERO) respect for you. h34r: h34r:

What we are immediately aware of and see in your postings is your continued idiocy showing you spiraling farther and farther downward like a comet each time you answer my postings.

 

[StanJ]

What we are immediately aware of and see in your postings is your continued idiocy showing you spiraling farther and farther downward like a comet each time you answer my postings.

Who is WE LM?

 

[Barrd]

For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

ALL have sinned. That guy behind the pulpit has sinned. Every member of the choir has sinned. The ushers...you know, the guys who bring the collection plate around...they have sinned. That sweet little lady in the third pew with the little bald spot...yes, even she has sinned.

I have sinned. And so has each one who is posting in this thread.

I think of the woman taken in adultery...suppose it had been a young man taken while having sex with another man?
Imagine the angry crowd gathering...rocks in hand, ready to throw...you can almost smell the hatred in the air. And the young man, naked but for a sheet he grabbed as his accusers dragged him from the bed...how he trembles in fear as he crouches on the ground at Jesus' feet.

"This boy was taken during an act of sodomy," someone calls out in a harsh voice, as the young man tries to shrink out of sight. "The law says that such filth ought to be stoned! What do you say, Jesus?"
There is a hush, as Jesus kneels down and writes in the dirt. The crowd grows impatient...
"We await your judgment...Lord," another calls out mockingly.

​Finally Jesus stands and faces the angry crowd, while the young man tries to hide behind His legs.
"Which of you," He says in His quiet but commanding voice, "is without sin?"
The crowd is quiet, so Jesus goes back to doodling in the dirt. What is He writing there? Some think He might be writing down the sins of some of the leaders of this unruly mob...

After a few seconds, Jesus seems to notice that the crowd, red faced and angry, are still there. He stands and faces them.
The young man has died a thousand deaths, crouching there at His feet, expecting the stones to start pelting them at any second. His terror has become almost a visible fog around him, almost taking on a life of it's own.

Jesus looks out among the crowd. Each person there feels His compelling gaze as His eyes pass from one face to the next...
"Let the one among you who has no sin be the first to throw a stone at him," He says.

And here we are...
Now, I don't know about you...but I have to drop any rocks I might be carrying, and go home, where I will spend some time on my knees...

The young man?
Well, he's still there, clutching his sheet. Jesus looks down at him.
"Where are your accusers?" He asks.
"N-no one accused me, Lord," he answers in a shaken voice.
Gently, Jesus reaches down and lifts him to his feet. One of the apostles passes his robe over to Jesus, Who places it tenderly around the young man's shoulders.
"Neither do I condemn you," He tells the young man.
Now go...

and sin no more, lest a worse thing than this should happen to you."

And that is our message to the gay community.
"Go...and sin no more..."

 

[Josho]

No it is not the way they are born, that's a lie the Devil made up, and it's one many people like to believe.

 

[Barrd]

It doesn't matter if "they were born that way" or not.
The woman taken in adultery was "born that way"...that is, she was heterosexual. But her sexuality still led her into sin...and very nearly cost her her life. But Jesus forgave her.
Kleptomaniacs are "born that way", pathological liars are "born that way", serial killers are "born that way"...even atheists claim that their is the "default position"...all babies, they will tell you, are "born atheists".
We are all "born that way" when it comes to sin.
That's the point, you see.

 

[mjrhealth]

No it is not the way they are born, that's a lie the Devil made up, and it's one many people like to believe

Oh that you be so lucky that you where born the way you are so you wouldnt have christians pointing fingers at you and calling you sinner.

Yes that devil has so many standing in his side of the court ready to condemn. For a crime to be committed there must be a witness, that witness must atest to the crime and to do so they would have to be called by the accuser not the defender, and who is our accuse and why are you taking his side?? Havnt you ever wondered why Jesus said.

Luk 6:36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
Luk 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

Mat 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
Mat 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
Mat 7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Mat 7:4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
Mat 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

When you are perfect as He is perfect than you may have the right to judge,

In all His Love

 

[Barrd]

Oh that you be so lucky that you where born the way you are so you wouldnt have christians pointing fingers at you and calling you sinner.

Yes that devil has so many standing in his side of the court ready to condemn. For a crime to be committed there must be a witness, that witness must atest to the crime and to do so they would have to be called by the accuser not the defender, and who is our accuse and why are you taking his side?? Havnt you ever wondered why Jesus said.

Luk 6:36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
Luk 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

Mat 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
Mat 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
Mat 7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Mat 7:4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
Mat 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

When you are perfect as He is perfect than you may have the right to judge,

In all His Love

Let's not overlook the fact that God does declare that homosexuality is an abomination.
Therefore, Christians must also answer that homosexuality is an abomination.
The fact is that our accuser does not need anyone "taking his side". It is enough that homosexual people have decided that they will not repent and turn from their sin, knowing as they do that it is sin. Thus, they condemn themselves.
"I was born that way" is no excuse...we were all born in sin, and we all must fight it in ourselves.
If we love one another as Christ has loved us, we have a responsibility to call out sin for what it is while there is yet time for us to repent and turn back to God.

Mat 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
Mat 18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire

And what if it is my sexuality that offends God?
Would it not be better for me to be celibate, then, rather than to be cast into hell fire as these verses suggest?

 

[mjrhealth]

Was it the elephant mans fault he was born that way, is it teh fault of teh children that are born cojoined, missing limbs, blind, mentally retarded are they all sinners because they are born that way. Oh it is so simple for those born with all their fingers and toes , with perfect vision and all their organs and limbs, but woe to you that be born with hormone imbalance with both female and male genitals, woe to you because all teh christnas will come out and call you siners. Oh how many have "christians" turned away from Christ, becuase of their ignorance. You know why we die, do you know why we are the way we are, do you know why there is sickness and all these birth defects, it is called "corruption". but you see yet you dont see, how blind are you.

Look at them God dont look at us they are worse, but God knows who is teh worse of teh two

In all His Love

 

[Barrd]

Was it the elephant mans fault he was born that way, is it teh fault of teh children that are born cojoined, missing limbs, blind, mentally retarded are they all sinners because they are born that way. Oh it is so simple for those born with all their fingers and toes , with perfect vision and all their organs and limbs, but woe to you that be born with hormone imbalance with both female and male genitals, woe to you because all teh christnas will come out and call you siners. Oh how many have "christians" turned away from Christ, becuase of their ignorance. You know why we die, do you know why we are the way we are, do you know why there is sickness and all these birth defects, it is called "corruption". but you see yet you dont see, how blind are you.

Look at them God dont look at us they are worse, but God knows who is teh worse of teh two

In all His Love

God help us, it is not a sin to be ugly, or to be a conjoined twin, or to have a missing limb, or to be blind, or to be retarded. I would say that the children who are born this way have enough to bear, without someone using them as an excuse to pardon their sin.
Medical science is working on providing means to help these unfortunate people. But homosexuals refuse any kind of offer of any help, insisting that they can not change...although some have done exactly that.

And this asking God who is "worse"?
Not good...
Not unless you want a real answer...

 

[Barrd]

Seriously, who is "worse"?
Is it the guy walking around with a glaring hole in his britches, showing the world his behind?
Or is it the guy who taps him on the shoulder and tells him, "My brother, you have a hole in your britches."

Of course, the "best" one would be the guy who shows him where he can get a new pair of pants to wear....

 

[mjrhealth]

ard I would of though you would have known beter, Christ never sent us into the world to condemn men of sin He aslked us to LOVE, we are suppsed to show the world GODS LOVE so that maybe the Holy Spirit will come upon them and "Convict them of their sin" it is not your nor my rigtht to to do so.

To call any man a sinner is to judge one. And as Christ said,

Luk 12:56 Ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky and of the earth; but how is it that ye do not discern this time?
Luk 12:57 Yea, and why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right?

Joh 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment

Joh 8:15 Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.
Joh 8:16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.

Mat 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
Mat 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

Lets start a post on teh SINS of teh church lets fix what is wrong in christainity before we go around judging others.

Who would like to start.

In all His Love

 

[Josho]

So are we as Christians supposed to turn a blind eye and celebrate with the rest of the world because marriage equality is being legalized? No, why would we want to celebrate sin?

Do you not realize the bible also says

2 Timothy 3:16
"All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;"

And if all scripture is inspired by God, that doesn't leave out this

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
"Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

This is not judging, this is correcting, and helping many confused Christians out there on this issue. The way I comment on this issue may look hateful, but I do not hate homosexuals, i would treat them like any other human being. I just feel sorry for them.