Heresy within Christianity

[Paul Christensen]

I have a problem with this idea death entered the world because of the fall.
Death is part of life. The whole being may live on but their cells die.
Our guts are full of bacteria etc. which reproduce, live and die.

The image in scripture is of refreshing life with the tree of life.
That life is given strength to continue.

So is death actually significant death, ie of people, rather than death of living organisms.
Do we say a car has died when it fails to be able to work?

Is the 3rd law of thermodynamics an indication that everything runs down, but prior to the fall this was not true?
The fall of man was Adam accepting death with knowledge of good and evil over trusting and walking with God.
It was a path of independence which God declared would lead to death.

And boy was He right. But Adam at the time did not understand the death would work out because man could not access the tree of life, ie. part of living is dying unless we are refreshed. God bless you.

So you are saying that God did not create a perfect world, and that He did not mean what He said when in Genesis that He looked over all His creation and said it is very good.

So if death was part of the creation before Adam's sin, then was death part of God's "very good" creation, and He viewed death as very good, or in other words, part of His perfect creation?

Why did Paul say in Romans that death reigned from Adam to Moses? Shouldn't he have said that death reigned from before Adam to Moses? Did Paul slip up there? Or did the Holy Spirit who spoke through Paul make an error?

And what about when the Holy Spirit said to Paul in two other references in Romans and one in 2 Corinthians that death came with Adam's sin, not before? Was the Holy Spirit lying through Paul, when death was there before Adam?

Or is it that the Holy Spirit is telling the truth that death came into the world through Adam's sin, seeing that sin and death are connected, and before Adam there was no sin in the world, and therefore no death?

If you believe the Scripture, "The soul who sins shall surely die", then if Adam was the first person who sinned, then he was the first person to die. If there were no humans before Adam, there could not have been any sin, therefore no death, because the Scripture says "The wages of sin is death", but if there is no sin, there is no death.

So, aren't you reading into Scripture something that isn't there, and ignoring things that are there?

 

[Paul Christensen]

Did not say that there were no creationists with doctorate degree....none that would be endorsed by any legitimate scientist or university.

The International Flat Earth Research Society (IFERS), better known as the Flat Earth Society, was set up by Samuel Shenton in 1956, in Dover, UK, as a direct descendant of the Universal Zetetic Society.

There were several "alleged scientists" that thought the world was going to end in the year 2000.

You have avoided what Dr. Carter said in the video, and chose to discredit him, because what he said does not fit into your dogmatic views.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Osborne died in 1935
Henry Fairfield Osborn - Wikipedia

Did you think I wouldn't know? More likely, I think you again trusted people who lied to you. For comparison, Osborne's creationist contemporary Louis Agassiz, actually argued that blacks are a different species than the rest of us, and are not the descendants of Adam and Eve.

It won't really matter what authorities I quote, because you will still discredit them as long as they don't fit into your dogmatic personal views.

 

[Grailhunter]

You have avoided what Dr. Carter said in the video, and chose to discredit him, because what he said does not fit into your dogmatic views.

I avoided nothing. He is a guy posing as a scientist that disagrees with science.
More or less like a degree'd preacher that does not believe in Christ.

He reminded me of the people that were posing as Christian Computer Techs that were explaining the perplexities of motherboards, processors, and software, saying that the computers would go nuts at 0000 year 2000 and launch nuclear weapons and shutdown power grids and cause trains and plane to collide. Degrees are not...they were idiots! Idiots and lairs, because they had no idea what they were talking about, trying to make people think they did know.

It is unbecoming of Christianity....Lie....with the intent to deceive....and the subject matter is Christianity. Do you think that there will be a special level of hell for that?

 

[Yehren]

(Barbarian points out that Osborn died around 1935, not recently)

It won't really matter what authorities I quote

You didn't quote him. You merely made an accusation, and failed to support it. You got his life off by about 50 years. But you are right about one thing; quotes don't mean anything in science, except what one person thinks. Evidence is what decides thinga for science. Get some of that, and you're in business.

because you will still discredit them as long as they don't fit into your dogmatic personal views.

You made it pretty easy; your supposedly world-class geneticist turned out to not be a geneticist at all. I will strongly suggest to you something that will save you a lot of grief:

You need to check claims for yourself. And even more importantly, when someone tells you something you really, really want to be true, that's when you need to be most cautious and skeptical. Because that's precisely when you are easiest to fool. Not just you; every human on Earth.

Keep it in mind.

 

[Yehren]

He reminded me of the people that were posing as Christian Computer Techs that were explaining the perplexities of motherboards, processors, and software, saying that the computers would go nuts at 0000 year 2000 and launch nuclear weapons and shutdown power grids and cause trains and plane to collide. Degrees are not...they were idiots! Idiots and lairs, because they had no idea what they were talking about, trying to make people think they did know.

I had some friends who had become proficient in COBOL, an early business-oriented language. As the millennium approached, banks and other financial institutions realized that they had cobbled together patches for decades, with inadequate documentation, and they had no idea what 2000 would do to their systems. For a while, anyone proficient in COBOL had all the work he wanted.

The night the millennium arrived, we had a team of people from around the globe, nearly every time zone, tracking what was going on. As it swept around the world, no planes falling out of the sky, no electrical grids going down etc. But one station in the pacific had the date stamp completely wrong. That was it.

 

[Paul Christensen]

I avoided nothing. He is a guy posing as a scientist that disagrees with science.
More or less like a degree'd preacher that does not believe in Christ.

He reminded me of the people that were posing as Christian Computer Techs that were explaining the perplexities of motherboards, processors, and software, saying that the computers would go nuts at 0000 year 2000 and launch nuclear weapons and shutdown power grids and cause trains and plane to collide. Degrees are not...they were idiots! Idiots and lairs, because they had no idea what they were talking about, trying to make people think they did know.

It is unbecoming of Christianity....Lie....with the intent to deceive....and the subject matter is Christianity. Do you think that there will be a special level of hell for that?

You would say that because his teaching does not fit your own views.

 

[Grailhunter]

I had some friends who had become proficient in COBOL, an early business-oriented language. As the millennium approached, banks and other financial institutions realized that they had cobbled together patches for decades, with inadequate documentation, and they had no idea what 2000 would do to their systems. For a while, anyone proficient in COBOL had all the work he wanted.

The night the millennium arrived, we had a team of people from around the globe, nearly every time zone, tracking what was going on. As it swept around the world, no planes falling out of the sky, no electrical grids going down etc. But one station in the pacific had the date stamp completely wrong. That was it.

The date stamp was about updating the "bios" of the cmos on some computers.
The issue with COBOL was something else...design issue

 

[Grailhunter]

You would say that because his teaching does not fit your own views.

Does not fit the facts.

 

[Paul Christensen]

(Barbarian points out that Osborn died around 1935, not recently)



You didn't quote him. You merely made an accusation, and failed to support it. You got his life off by about 50 years. But you are right about one thing; quotes don't mean anything in science, except what one person thinks. Evidence is what decides thinga for science. Get some of that, and you're in business.



You made it pretty easy; your supposedly world-class geneticist turned out to not be a geneticist at all. I will strongly suggest to you something that will save you a lot of grief:

You need to check claims for yourself. And even more importantly, when someone tells you something you really, really want to be true, that's when you need to be most cautious and skeptical. Because that's precisely when you are easiest to fool. Not just you; every human on Earth.

Keep it in mind.

I just reflected what he said, to show that this is what evolutionist believe about superior and inferior races depending on where they are on the scale of evolution. It is obvious that he believed that Africans were not as highly evolved as European Caucasians. And that evolutionary belief is at the foundation of racism involving people who are of the darker brown variety of human beings.

I know that you can't accept that this is what evolutionists believe and that they are basically racist in their attitude to different types of human beings. But in my view, an evolutionist has to be a racist because he believes in different races of humans, inferior and superior, while a Bible-believer accepts that we are all of one race from two original parents and that different shades of brown skin colour are genetic variations depending on original environment.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Does not fit the facts.

I have given you the facts concerning the way Passover week was set out, and the reason why Jesus died at 3pm on the Thursday, exactly the time when the Jewish Passover lambs were killed in preparation for the Passover meal the next day (Friday), and that for Passover week pilgrims from all over the regions outside of Judea came to Jerusalem to celebrate the Passover and have their Sabbath worship in the Temple.

Just after Jesus entered Jerusalem and while He was teaching in the Temple precincts, there were Greek God Fearers in Jerusalem for the Passover, who wanted to see Him and ask questions of Him.

So, if you are listening to some mental voice interpreting the Scripture for you, instead of you taking the time and effort to study the history and culture of the First Century Jewish people in Jerusalem, and also consulting other Scripture that clearly says that Jesus spent 3 day and 3 nights in the tomb, and that He as the Lamb of God died at exactly the same time as the Passover lambs were being killed in Jerusalem, then you are listening to the wrong voice and not believing the literal text of the Bible.

 

[Grailhunter]

I have given you the facts concerning the way Passover week was set out, and the reason why Jesus died at 3pm on the Thursday, exactly the time when the Jewish Passover lambs were killed in preparation for the Passover meal the next day (Friday), and that for Passover week pilgrims from all over the regions outside of Judea came to Jerusalem to celebrate the Passover and have their Sabbath worship in the Temple.

Just after Jesus entered Jerusalem and while He was teaching in the Temple precincts, there were Greek God Fearers in Jerusalem for the Passover, who wanted to see Him and ask questions of Him.

So, if you are listening to some mental voice interpreting the Scripture for you, instead of you taking the time and effort to study the history and culture of the First Century Jewish people in Jerusalem, and also consulting other Scripture that clearly says that Jesus spent 3 day and 3 nights in the tomb, and that He as the Lamb of God died at exactly the same time as the Passover lambs were being killed in Jerusalem, then you are listening to the wrong voice and not believing the literal text of the Bible.

We were not talking about Passover

 

[Yehren]

It depends on where you are at but things like common core...

Common core was a private initiative, then picked up by states. It is mostly functional; it was developed by watching what the teachers of high-achieving students did, and suggesting that.

cognitive reconstruction, values modification, social perception modification are written lesson plans.

You haven't see a lot of lesson plans, I think. When I retired, I became a teacher for some years. I had always wanted to do it, but having a family, I couldn't afford it. Never used any of that in any lesson plan.

And told that they will lose their jobs if anything gets out to the parents.

Show us that. Checkable sources. Sounds a little unlikely, given that school boards serve at the pleasure of parents.

Sounds like the perfect conspiracy theory don't it.

Almost as credible as the "Queen Elizabeth is an alien lizard" story. Almost.

Why do you think that so many of the youth are coming out of the colleges, socialist, atheist, druggies.

Sounds like a testable belief. Show us your data.

 

[prism]

For pagans, faith is sufficient. Since God is truth, we are called upon to accept the logic of his being. And yes, much of the Church has done it. Christianity isn't merely a religion, like all the others that call for belief without reason.

Reason points to God. He gave you a mind for a purpose. Use it.

Seems as if you jumped to a bit of a false conclusion on your end. I never said reason and logic has no place in truth, only that it is not to supersede God’s revelation if the two butt heads,... as in the case of Augustine or today’s old earthers.

 

[Yehren]

I just reflected what he said, to show that this is what evolutionist believe about superior and inferior races depending on where they are on the scale of evolution.

Since evolutionary theory shows that there are no biological human races, I'd say you were lied to yet again. On the other hand, the founder of the largest YE creationist organization, was into the 1990s, still blathering about the supposed intellectual and spiritual inferiority of black people. Not that all YE creationists are racists; many are not. But the founders were infected with the ideology of racism and eugenics, and it persists in the creationism movement. Would you like me to show you, again?

It is obvious that he believed that Africans were not as highly evolved as European Caucasians.

Darwin outraged creationists when he argued that if you brought a group of Africans to England, in a few generations, they'd be Englishmen. Unlike most (but not all) creationists of his time, he thought that all humans were equal and deserved equal rights. He still thought Englishmen were superior to all other humans, as most Englishmen of his day did. But he was far, far from creationists like Agassiz, who thought that black people weren't even the same species as the rest of us. And that creationist belief is at the foundation of racism involving people who are of the darker brown variety of human beings.

I know that you can't accept that this is what founding creationists believe and that they were basically racist in their attitude to different types of human beings. I can show you again, if you'd like to see it. Remember, here's why there are so few racist evolutionists:

Race Is a Social Construct, Scientists Argue
Racial categories are weak proxies for genetic diversity and need to be phased out
Race Is a Social Construct, Scientists Argue

Here's why racism remains a problem in the creationism movement:
Yet the prophecy again has its obverse side. Somehow they have only gone so far and no farther. The Japhethites and Semites have, sooner or later, taken over their territories, and their inventions, and then developed them and utilized them for their own enlargement. Often the Hamites, especially the Negroes, have become actual personal servants or even slaves to the others. Possessed of a genetic character concerned mainly with mundane matters, they have eventually been displaced by the intellectual and philosophical acumen of the Japhethites and the religious zeal of the Semites.
ICR founder Henry Morris, The Beginning Of the World, Second Edition (1991), pp. 147-148:

But in my view, an evolutionist has to be a racist because he believes in different races of humans, inferior and superior,

See above. You have it backwards. There certainly are YE creationists who are not racists, but only because they reject the founding basis for YE creationism.

A Bible-believing evolutionist accepts that we are all of one race from two original parents and that different shades of brown skin color are genetic variations evolved from an original pair. This is an essential fact, since Adam and Eve could have had at most, 4 alleles for each gene locus. Yet humans to day have dozens for each gene locus. The rest evolved. No other way.

As you learned, creationists like Agassiz thought that blacks were a different species.

In the 20th and 21st centuries, Agassiz's resistance to Darwinian evolution, belief in creationism, and the scientific racism implicit in his writings on human polygenism have tarnished his reputation, and led to controversies over his legacy.
...
In 1850 Agassiz commissioned daguerreotypes, described as "haunting and voyeuristic" of the enslaved Renty Taylor and Taylor's daughter Delia to further his arguments about black inferiority[36]. They are the earliest known photographs of slaves.[37][38][36][39] Agassiz left the images to Harvard and they remained in the Peabody Museum’s attic until 1976 when they were re-discovered by Ellie Reichlin. In 2019 Taylor's descendants sued Harvard for the return of the images and unspecified damages.[40] The lawsuit was supported by forty-three living descendants of Louis Agassiz, they wrote a letter of support that read in part "For Harvard to give the daguerreotypes to Ms. Lanier and her family would begin to make amends for its use of the photos as exhibits for the white supremacist theory Agassiz espoused,” and that everyone must evaluate fully "his role in promoting a pseudoscientific justification for white supremacy."
...
Agassiz, like other polygenists, believed the Book of Genesis recounted the origin of the white race only
Louis Agassiz - Wikipedia

 

[Yehren]

The date stamp was about updating the "bios" of the cmos on some computers.

Yep.

The issue with COBOL was something else...design issue

Repeated patches and undocumented changes; most cases, no one knew what they might do with post-1999 dates.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Since evolutionary theory shows that there are no biological human races, I'd say you were lied to yet again. On the other hand, the founder of the largest YE creationist organization, was into the 1990s, still blathering about the supposed intellectual and spiritual inferiority of black people. Not that all YE creationists are racists; many are not. But the founders were infected with the ideology of racism and eugenics, and it persists in the creationism movement. Would you like me to show you, again?



Darwin outraged creationists when he argued that if you brought a group of Africans to England, in a few generations, they'd be Englishmen. Unlike most (but not all) creationists of his time, he thought that all humans were equal and deserved equal rights. He still thought Englishmen were superior to all other humans, as most Englishmen of his day did. But he was far, far from creationists like Agassiz, who thought that black people weren't even the same species as the rest of us. And that creationist belief is at the foundation of racism involving people who are of the darker brown variety of human beings.

I know that you can't accept that this is what founding creationists believe and that they were basically racist in their attitude to different types of human beings. I can show you again, if you'd like to see it. Remember, here's why there are so few racist evolutionists:

Race Is a Social Construct, Scientists Argue
Racial categories are weak proxies for genetic diversity and need to be phased out
Race Is a Social Construct, Scientists Argue

Here's why racism remains a problem in the creationism movement:
Yet the prophecy again has its obverse side. Somehow they have only gone so far and no farther. The Japhethites and Semites have, sooner or later, taken over their territories, and their inventions, and then developed them and utilized them for their own enlargement. Often the Hamites, especially the Negroes, have become actual personal servants or even slaves to the others. Possessed of a genetic character concerned mainly with mundane matters, they have eventually been displaced by the intellectual and philosophical acumen of the Japhethites and the religious zeal of the Semites.
ICR founder Henry Morris, The Beginning Of the World, Second Edition (1991), pp. 147-148:



See above. You have it backwards. There certainly are YE creationists who are not racists, but only because they reject the founding basis for YE creationism.

A Bible-believing evolutionist accepts that we are all of one race from two original parents and that different shades of brown skin color are genetic variations evolved from an original pair. This is an essential fact, since Adam and Eve could have had at most, 4 alleles for each gene locus. Yet humans to day have dozens for each gene locus. The rest evolved. No other way.

As you learned, creationists like Agassiz thought that blacks were a different species.

In the 20th and 21st centuries, Agassiz's resistance to Darwinian evolution, belief in creationism, and the scientific racism implicit in his writings on human polygenism have tarnished his reputation, and led to controversies over his legacy.
...
In 1850 Agassiz commissioned daguerreotypes, described as "haunting and voyeuristic" of the enslaved Renty Taylor and Taylor's daughter Delia to further his arguments about black inferiority[36]. They are the earliest known photographs of slaves.[37][38][36][39] Agassiz left the images to Harvard and they remained in the Peabody Museum’s attic until 1976 when they were re-discovered by Ellie Reichlin. In 2019 Taylor's descendants sued Harvard for the return of the images and unspecified damages.[40] The lawsuit was supported by forty-three living descendants of Louis Agassiz, they wrote a letter of support that read in part "For Harvard to give the daguerreotypes to Ms. Lanier and her family would begin to make amends for its use of the photos as exhibits for the white supremacist theory Agassiz espoused,” and that everyone must evaluate fully "his role in promoting a pseudoscientific justification for white supremacy."
...
Agassiz, like other polygenists, believed the Book of Genesis recounted the origin of the white race only
Louis Agassiz - Wikipedia

I get all that, but none of this answers the basic question about evolution - where is the evidential, directly observed and tested proof that one organism type has changed to another through evolution? No one seems to be able to give a direct answer, or show the actual observable transformation from one type of organism to another such as a one-cell bacteria to a virus, for example, seeing that they are totally different types of organisms. That's about as simple as one can get, and yet not even the most qualified evolution scientist can show it, either by observation in the field, or testing in the laboratory.

So you can quote a whole encylopedia to prove your point, but unless you can answer the basic question, then you fall well short of proving anything.

 

[Grailhunter]

Common core was a private initiative, then picked up by states. It is mostly functional; it was developed by watching what the teachers of high-achieving students did, and suggesting that.



You haven't see a lot of lesson plans, I think. When I retired, I became a teacher for some years. I had always wanted to do it, but having a family, I couldn't afford it. Never used any of that in any lesson plan.



Show us that. Checkable sources. Sounds a little unlikely, given that school boards serve at the pleasure of parents.



Almost as credible as the "Queen Elizabeth is an alien lizard" story. Almost.



Sounds like a testable belief. Show us your data.

You haven't see a lot of lesson plans, I think. When I retired, I became a teacher for some years. I had always wanted to do it, but having a family, I couldn't afford it. Never used any of that in any lesson plan.

You would be shocked! It sounds like a conspiracy theory...that and the fact that people have a tendency to trust people with degrees is the reason they have got away with it. End result is what we got....kids that are programmed to believe in atheism and communism....but are poorly educated on the things their parents sent them to school to learn.

 

[Yehren]

You would be shocked!

I've been shocked by a lot of things when I started teaching. But never that.

It sounds like a conspiracy theory...that and the fact that people have a tendency to trust people with degrees is the reason they have got away with it.

I've actually read curriculum, done lesson plans, and critiqued others. That never turned up.

End result is what we got....kids that are programmed to believe in atheism and communism.

Neither are taught in public schools. So there is that. You have a documented counter-example?

but are poorly educated on the things their parents sent them to school to learn.

That's a testable belief. The TIMSS program gives kids in about 40 countries identical tests in math and science (which don't vary like history and language arts will in different countries). Guess where we rank? You might be surprised. What do you think? Math? Science?

 

[Grailhunter]

I've been shocked by a lot of things when I started teaching. But never that.



I've actually read curriculum, done lesson plans, and critiqued others. That never turned up.



Neither are taught in public schools. So there is that. You have a documented counter-example?



That's a testable belief. The TIMSS program gives kids in about 40 countries identical tests in math and science (which don't vary like history and language arts will in different countries). Guess where we rank? You might be surprised. What do you think? Math? Science?

After saying all that you have never looked to see how poorly American students stack up against the students in other countries. Don't notice the number of our youth that are embracing this crazy form of socialism that is be pushed on us by the democrats.....scared of cow pooh!