Hell : Then the Lake of Fire

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

Have you noticed there to be all these "new members" that take issue with you immediately? ;)

Yep... most likely the same person.....

 

[Beebster]

O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. (Mat 12:34)

 

[Beebster]

God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? (Num 23:19)

And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent. (1 Sam 15:29)

And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
To wit, that God was in Christ, RECONCILING THE WORLD unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. (2 Cor 5:18-19)

Witness after witness that God, who does not lie, WILL save all.

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: (2 Tim 3:16)

Peace.

 

[bro.tan]

I agree that the lake of fire was create for Satan and the unholy angels that follow him. Let's go into Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Satan through man (Religious Teaching) has deceived the whole world.
Think about it, how does he deceive the whole world? Which means me, you and everyone else has been deceive at some point for the scriptures did not say he deceive some of the world, or part of the world, but the whole world.


Pay close attention to what the God of Israel is saying here in Matthew. You will be called the least in the kingdom of heaven if you teach men that the law is no more. If you are the least in the kingdom you will be in the Lake of Fire. It's very clear that law is still in effect, last time I checked the heavens and the earth still exist.


Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


In Ezekiel Jesus informs you how a man will die. If he breaks the law and does not repent (baptized in the name of Jesus and be circumcised) he will die.


Ezekiel 18:10 If he beget a son that is a robber, a shedder of blood, and that doeth the like to any one of these things, 11 And that doeth not any of those duties, but even hath eaten upon the mountains, and defiled his neighbor's wife, 12 Hath oppressed the poor and needy, hath spoiled by violence, hath not restored the pledge, and hath lifted up his eyes to the idols, hath committed abomination, 13 Hath given forth upon usury, and hath taken increase: shall he then live? he shall not live: he hath done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon him. 20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. The soul that sinneth it shall die. What is the biblical definition of sin? I John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Now we see what sin is. So what death is the LORD talking about here? Revelation 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. 11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

He is talking about the second death. What is the second death? Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


The second death is being cast into the Lake of Fire. If you are not in the book of life you will be cast into the Lake of Fire.

Jesus kingdom will be here on earth. The Lake Of Fire must be around some where. Let's go to Isaiah and see if we can find it.

Isaiah 66:20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD. 21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the LORD. 22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. 24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

These verses are beyond us, but not too far. Where is the Lord at this time? In his holy mountain Jerusalem. What will happen when all flesh come up to worship him? They will look upon the carcases of the men that transgressed against Him. Where is the Lake Of Fire?

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

Pay close attention to what the God of Israel is saying here in Matthew. You will be called the least in the kingdom of heaven if you teach men that the law is no more. If you are the least in the kingdom you will be in the Lake of Fire. It's very clear that law is still in effect, last time I checked the heavens and the earth still exist.


Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Does what is said in Matthew that you posted and I turned blue mean that (19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments~ he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven) you would have lost the possibility of your salvation or does it mean
that all of heaven will call you the least and it will be your loss?

In Ezekiel Jesus informs you how a man will die. If he breaks the law and does not repent (baptized in the name of Jesus and be circumcised) he will die.

So if one breaks the law but has not been baptized in the name of Jesus, or has not been circumcised... ( Don't think the Jews did that to girls???? I know some Muslims do) even with a spiritual born again... we are going to die?

23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

So... can it not be said that those who fail in what some might call the least.... the Sabbath worship of 6PM Fri to 6PM Sat are in danger and would that not encompass the majority of the "Christian" denominations... even unto today?

 

[GracePeace]

I agree that the lake of fire was create for Satan and the unholy angels that follow him. Let's go into Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Satan through man (Religious Teaching) has deceived the whole world.
Think about it, how does he deceive the whole world? Which means me, you and everyone else has been deceive at some point for the scriptures did not say he deceive some of the world, or part of the world, but the whole world.


Pay close attention to what the God of Israel is saying here in Matthew. You will be called the least in the kingdom of heaven if you teach men that the law is no more. If you are the least in the kingdom you will be in the Lake of Fire. It's very clear that law is still in effect, last time I checked the heavens and the earth still exist.


Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


In Ezekiel Jesus informs you how a man will die. If he breaks the law and does not repent (baptized in the name of Jesus and be circumcised) he will die.


Ezekiel 18:10 If he beget a son that is a robber, a shedder of blood, and that doeth the like to any one of these things, 11 And that doeth not any of those duties, but even hath eaten upon the mountains, and defiled his neighbor's wife, 12 Hath oppressed the poor and needy, hath spoiled by violence, hath not restored the pledge, and hath lifted up his eyes to the idols, hath committed abomination, 13 Hath given forth upon usury, and hath taken increase: shall he then live? he shall not live: he hath done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon him. 20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. The soul that sinneth it shall die. What is the biblical definition of sin? I John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Now we see what sin is. So what death is the LORD talking about here? Revelation 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. 11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

He is talking about the second death. What is the second death? Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


The second death is being cast into the Lake of Fire. If you are not in the book of life you will be cast into the Lake of Fire.

Jesus kingdom will be here on earth. The Lake Of Fire must be around some where. Let's go to Isaiah and see if we can find it.

Isaiah 66:20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD. 21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the LORD. 22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. 24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

These verses are beyond us, but not too far. Where is the Lord at this time? In his holy mountain Jerusalem. What will happen when all flesh come up to worship him? They will look upon the carcases of the men that transgressed against Him. Where is the Lake Of Fire?

If your interpretation of Jesus's Words ("not one tittle shall pass from the Law") is correct, why does He immediately proceed to nullify the Torah on vows, condemning anyone who takes a vow, saying taking a vow is "of the evil one" (Mt 5)? Why does He overrule Torah on divorce (Mt 19)?

Why does Paul say anyone who gets circumcised is cut off from Christ (Gal 5:3,4)?

@Rella ~ I am a woman Please know that @bro.tan is teaching heresy.

 

[Beebster]

Hello GracePeace

Why does Paul say anyone who gets circumcised is cut off from Christ (Gal 5:3,4)?

Paul does not say that. What he says is:

Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. (Gal 5:2-3)

Not because they are circumcised but because:

-whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. (Gal5:4)

For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.(Gal5:6)

And yet we must all be circumcised, both male and female, if we are to be in Christ.

 

[GracePeace]

Hello GracePeace

Paul does not say that. What he says is:

Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. (Gal 5:2-3)

Not because they are circumcised but because:

-whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. (Gal5:4)

For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.(Gal5:6)

And yet we must all be circumcised, both male and female, if we are to be in Chrbist.

1. The entire issue of Galatians was their being under Law (Gal 4:21)--seeking to be justified by the Law.
2. Circumcision is the act that enters a man into the Sinai Covenant, and you need to do every act in the Law without failure or you're cursed (not blessed with the blessing of Abraham, the Holy Spirit (Gal 3)), which is why Paul says "cursed are all who are of the works of the Law" (Gal 3).
3. Nowhere in Scripture, at any time at all, are women, under any circumstances, commanded to be circumcised.

 

[Beebster]

1. The entire issue of Galatians was their being under Law (Gal 4:21)--seeking to be justified by the Law.
2. Circumcision is the act that enters a man into the Sinai Covenant, and you need to do every act in the Law without failure or you're cursed (not blessed with the blessing of Abraham, the Holy Spirit (Gal 3)), which is why Paul says "cursed are all who are of the works of the Law" (Gal 3).

This I can agree with.

For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: BUT if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

Therefore if the uncircumcision (Gentiles) keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? (Rom 2:25-26)

This is really important here:

And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature (that's the Gentile), if it fulfil the law (of righteousness Ver.26), judge thee (the Jew), who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? (Rom 2:27)

3. Nowhere in Scripture, at any time at all, are women, under any circumstances, commanded to be circumcised.

That I disagree with:

For he is not a Jew, WHICH IS ONE OUTWARDLY (genealogically); neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

But he is a Jew (God's Elect - New Jerusalem), which is one inwardly; and CIRCUMCISION IS THAT OF THE HEART , in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. (Rom 2:28-29)

So yes, we all need to be circumcised.

Peace.

 

[GracePeace]

For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: BUT if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

Therefore if the uncircumcision (Gentiles) keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? (Rom 2:25-26)

This is really important here:

And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature (that's the Gentile), if it fulfil the law (of righteousness Ver.26), judge thee (the Jew), who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? (Rom 2:27)

That I disagree with:

For he is not a Jew, WHICH IS ONE OUTWARDLY (genealogically); neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

But he is a Jew (God's Elect - New Jerusalem), which is one inwardly; and CIRCUMCISION IS THAT OF THE HEART , in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. (Rom 2:28-29)

So yes, we all need to be circumcised.

Peace.

In the context of this conversation (ie, @bro.tan saying we must be circumcised and keep the Law of Moses, and thr "circumcision" in Galatians 5), "circumcision" referred to physical circumcision.

 

[Beebster]

In the context of this conversation (ie, @bro.tan saying we must be circumcised and keep the Law of Moses, and thr "circumcision" in Galatians 5), "circumcision" referred to physical circumcision.

Fair enough, then we are in agreement here?

 

[GracePeace]

Fair enough, then we are in agreement here?

So far, it seems you and I are. Not sure why you even chimed in to agree by sounding as if you were disagreeing (unless you sincerely didn't understand the issue being addressed in the conversation--which I'd find hard to believe).

 

[Beebster]

So far, it seems you and I are. Not sure why you even chimed in to agree by sounding as if you were disagreeing (unless you sincerely didn't understand the issue being addressed in the conversation--which I'd find hard to believe).

I chimed in because your statement here is not sound:

Why does Paul say anyone who gets circumcised is cut off from Christ (Gal 5:3,4)?

Paul did not say "anyone."

You went on to assure me that:

Nowhere in Scripture, at any time at all, are women, under any circumstances, commanded to be circumcised.

Your words: Nowhere in Scripture, at any time at all are women, under any circumstances, commanded to be circumcised.

My point being, is that we need to watch what we say so that we are teaching sound doctrine.

Good night and peace be with you.

 

[GracePeace]

I chimed in because your statement here is not sound:

Paul did not say "anyone."

You went on to assure me that:

Your words: Nowhere in Scripture, at any time at all are women, under any circumstances, commanded to be circumcised.

My point being, is that we need to watch what we say so that we are teaching sound doctrine.

Good night and peace be with you.

Everything I said was 100% sound.
You either decided not to read the conversation you were responding to, or you did read, but either didn't understand or pretended not to understand the meaning of "circumcision" in the context of the conversation you were responding to, so that you baselessly found fault with my condemnation of the idea that Christians had to be physically circumcised (and certainly no woman has ever under any circumstances been physically circumcised in order to obey Scripture, since no Scripture commands any woman to be physically circumcised) and keep the Torah.

Again, I said everything perfectly well--as for yourself, you imported a different circumcision that wasn't being discussed in order to baselessly find fault with what I was saying, which shows you are dishonest and have evil motives and intentions here on this forum.

 

[GracePeace]

I chimed in because your statement here is not sound:

Paul did not say "anyone."

You went on to assure me that:

My intention was obviously not to say "I will present the exact grammar of Paul's statements found in Gal 5--here you can see he uses the word 'anyone'", only that the doctrine that Paul put forth condemns what bro.tan was saying.

I'm sure you already know this, and, yet, you decided to "correct" what was perfectly sound by fault finding where there was not fault to find. Again, since your entire "schtick" is dishonesty, you are not here with good intentions.

 

[GracePeace]

I chimed in because your statement here is not sound:

Paul did not say "anyone."

In the context of the conversation, where bro.tan is promulgating the heresy that Christians are to serve by Torah and be circumcised, yes, it is perfectly fine to state that he is teaching contrary to sound doctrine which says anyone who is under Torah and is circumcised in connection to being under Torah is cut off from Christ.

If we were speaking in more general terms (not the context of being under Torah, but more general facts), then, no, I wouldn't say that anyone who is circumcised after faith in Christ is cut off from Christ, because Paul had Timothy circumcised because of the Jews in that region--but, again, that is not the conversation that is being had.

The reality of the matter is that you are only looking for someone to correct to boast about having corrected someone. You are not in good faith in this conversation, and I imagine you behave the same way in other contexts--having a high opinion of yourself, thus self-promoting, looking to build yourself up, not looking to build others up. Basically a Pharisee.

 

[GracePeace]

Have you noticed there to be all these "new members" that take issue with you immediately? ;)

I just noticed that, as well--the guy just joined, and is spouting all kinds of nonsense, like Universalism.

 

[GracePeace]

You as a "new" member address a sister in Christ like that and remind me,many others I'm sure,of another member who has the same attitude. All meant to wrangle emotion.

Don't wish peace when you coral contempt.

We see you.

So too does God.

The guy just got here, and has already disqualified himself by consistently being underhanded and dishonest in his approach to conversing, because he wants to "correct" someone out of carnal desire, to be above by placing someone beneath, not because he wants to actually help anyone, build others up--he literally faulted me for defending against bro.tan's heretical view that Christians are under Torah! He just got here and already he has given me a reason not to like him at all. He is bad news. I guess when you are insane enough to adopt views like Universalism, "anything goes".

 

[bro.tan]

If your interpretation of Jesus's Words ("not one tittle shall pass from the Law") is correct, why does He immediately proceed to nullify the Torah on vows, condemning anyone who takes a vow, saying taking a vow is "of the evil one" (Mt 5)? Why does He overrule Torah on divorce (Mt 19)?

In, (Is. 42:21) we find another prophecy concerning Christ and the law. It reads, (v.21) The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he (Jesus) will magnify the law, and make it honourable. When you magnify something you enlarge it and bring it out more of its detail and richness. Jesus revealed the fulfillment of this prophecy when he explained, (Mat.5:27-28) (v.27) Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: (v.28) But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart

By magnifying the law and making it honorable, the spiritual intent of the law is now emphasized which goes far beyond the mere the physical intent. God has raised His standards, not lowered them! All God ever wanted was what was best for us! He designed us to be His children. We are happiest when we love and obey Him. He is a God who is totally righteous and holy. God cannot sin. And He wants us to follow in His footsteps. The person that says, (1John:2:6) “that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.”

Why does Paul say anyone who gets circumcised is cut off from Christ (Gal 5:3,4)?

@Rella ~ I am a woman Please know that @bro.tan is teaching heresy.

First let me say that God had Peter to clearly warn us about some of Paul’s writing. (2Peter:3:15-16) (v.15) And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; (v.16) As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. Now let us take heed to this warning, we can’t ignore all the bible and just concentrate on a hand full of verses out of the writings of Paul. Because some of Paul’s writing is hard to be understood.

Please do not be lazy quoting verses, Let's take a look at Gal 5: 3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

When you are circumcised in the mind you understand when you sin you transgress the law.
The law Paul is talking about here is referring to the animal sacrificial law, not the Commandments. The Galatians continue animal sacrifices after the death of Jesus Christ, and Paul is explaining to them it's all in vain. Paul says in (Gal. 3: (v.1) O FOOLISH Ga-la’-tians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? (v.13) Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, CURSED IS EVERYONE THAT HANGETH ON A TREE: What law is this talking about? Animal Sacrifices

 

[bro.tan]

Does what is said in Matthew that you posted and I turned blue mean that (19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments~ he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven) you would have lost the possibility of your salvation or does it mean
that all of heaven will call you the least and it will be your loss?

Let's take a look at that verse again in Matthew 5: Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. These are people that know they doing wrong, breaking God's Commandments and teaching people to break them also. Most cases they been warn to stop, we serve a merciful God.

So if one breaks the law but has not been baptized in the name of Jesus, or has not been circumcised... ( Don't think the Jews did that to girls???? I know some Muslims do) even with a spiritual born again... we are going to die?

Anyone that is not baptized is a person with their sins yet upon them, because it is the baptism that washes away our past sins. "And now why tarriest thou? Arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." (Acts 22:16) "And he said unto them, go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." (Mark 16:15-16).

"And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John. But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him." (Luke 7:29-30). People, if you are in a position to be baptized, why reject the counsel of God? Rejecting God's counsel will get you eternal life in the burning flames (lake of fire) with the scribes and Pharisees. "For I say unto you, that except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, Ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 5: 20).

So... can it not be said that those who fail in what some might call the least.... the Sabbath worship of 6PM Fri to 6PM Sat are in danger and would that not encompass the majority of the "Christian" denominations... even unto today?

Depend if a person knows they breaking God's law (Sabbath day). Because most people are taught Roman Christianity and deal with things that have nothing to do with Christ. This why Paul say, For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. (Hebrew 10: 26, 27)