Hell Is Not The Lake of Fire
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Webers_Home
Well-Known Member
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If I was qualified to "consult the Greek text" then I wouldn't need scholars
to translate the manuscripts into English for me; would I. You know, that's
just what the internet needs: one more armchair linguist telling everybody
else what the Bible really says.
Cliff
/
If I was qualified to "consult the Greek text" then I wouldn't need scholars
to translate the manuscripts into English for me; would I. You know, that's
just what the internet needs: one more armchair linguist telling everybody
else what the Bible really says.
Cliff
/
Hi jiggyfly,
I'm thinking that we're going to go in circles on this one.
Passages such as this one are pretty conclusive to me:
Revelation 14:9-11 LITV
(9) And a third angel followed them, saying in a great voice, If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives a mark on his forehead, or in his hand,
(10) he also shall drink of the wine of the anger of God having been mixed undiluted in the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented by fire and brimstone before the holy angels and before the Lamb.
(11) And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. And those worshiping the beast and its image have no rest night and day, even if anyone receives the mark of its name.
Others also.
I don't see any real benefit it pursuing this further at the moment.
I do appreciate your clarifying for my your view on this point!
:)
Love in Christ,
Mark
OK Mark np, one more question. Using the scripture Rev. 14:9-11 in your last post to support your belief, don't you see a conflict with what Jesus said in Luke?
“Love your enemies! Do good to them. Lend to them without expecting to be repaid. Then your reward from heaven will be very great, and you will truly be acting as children of the Most High, for he is kind to those who are unthankful and wicked.You must be compassionate, just as your Father is compassionate.Luke 6:35-36 (NLT)
Have you looked at the Greek text? Just for fun look at the Greek words basanizō, theion, akratos, and aiōn. Then notice where this is taking place, "before the holy angels and before the Lamb".
There are 3 really good translations (IMO) Youngs Literal, Concordant Literal, and the Rotherham's Emphasized. and of course I like to use the Septuagint as reference.
You don't need to respond back with your findings unless you want, I am content to let it rest. :)
Hi jiggyfly,
I started out with Koine Greek in our church ministry school (CCSOM), and have continued to study on my own for a number of years.
I normally look at all three Greek mss, plus a variety of translations, interlinears, and such. There are probibly about 25 different Bibles between the Greek and English that I routinely use. I like Young, but I think I like Green better. CLV is very useful, particularly in conjunction with the ISA (Scripture4all.net, I think. I've got it downloaded.) NLT is great for difficult passages, but you always need to couple it with more literal translation. Thayer, Strong, Vincent, and Robertson are all on e-Sword.net, along with a number of commentators.
I've also got a few different Greek grammars, from the fairly simple for a quick reminder, to the "oh man there's no way I'm going to read all of this!", but it's good when I need to check specific instances of syntax.
I've only gotten as far as being able to read and translate simple phrases and verses on my own, but with the reference materials, there is a lot of good study I can do. I cannot over emphasize the importance it has for me to be certain I correctly understand what I am reading in Scripture.
Love in Christ,
Mark
I started out with Koine Greek in our church ministry school (CCSOM), and have continued to study on my own for a number of years.
I normally look at all three Greek mss, plus a variety of translations, interlinears, and such. There are probibly about 25 different Bibles between the Greek and English that I routinely use. I like Young, but I think I like Green better. CLV is very useful, particularly in conjunction with the ISA (Scripture4all.net, I think. I've got it downloaded.) NLT is great for difficult passages, but you always need to couple it with more literal translation. Thayer, Strong, Vincent, and Robertson are all on e-Sword.net, along with a number of commentators.
I've also got a few different Greek grammars, from the fairly simple for a quick reminder, to the "oh man there's no way I'm going to read all of this!", but it's good when I need to check specific instances of syntax.
I've only gotten as far as being able to read and translate simple phrases and verses on my own, but with the reference materials, there is a lot of good study I can do. I cannot over emphasize the importance it has for me to be certain I correctly understand what I am reading in Scripture.
Love in Christ,
Mark
Veteran... did God establish the Lake of Fire? I think your answer is yes. God
wasn't caught by surprise, He knew before anything was ever created that man
would fail to be obedient. So He had a plan from the beginning.
If God established a second death (Lake of Fire), it stands to reason that He was
the one responsible for the "first death". But, what is the first death? Well, we have
been living in the first death for the last six thousand years. Let me explain.
1st Cor. 15:22-23 says,
22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be
made alive.
23 But each in his own order.
Paul compares Adam with Christ. Adam's sin brought death (1st death) to the
whole creation and we suffer that judgment even today. Romans 8:20 says,
20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not
willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in
hope
Even as Adam's sin brought death to ALL men and subjected the entire
creation to vanity, so also Christ's righteousness brought life to ALL
men and set the entire creation free. "Creation was subjected to vanity
not willingly," that is, apart from its own will or choice or decision. It
was adversely affected through Adam's sin, not for any sin of its own.
In essence, we are paying for a sin we didn't commit and we are now
living in the "1st death", which is, the original sin that Adam committed.
If you eat of the fruit of the tree you will surely die (1st death). Adam
passed down that judgment to the whole creation as Paul says in Rom.
8:20, and we are still paying for his disobedience as a creation. You
might say, I have been washed by the blood of the Lamb and it doesn't
affect me anymore. What about your kids. If one of your kids haven't
been washed, it will affect you.
In other words, God imputed his sin into our account and because of it,
the first death or mortality that we received from Adam causes us to sin.
This is by the Law of Headship, or Authority. The decisions of the one in
authority affect all of those under him for better or for worse. Thus, Rom.
5:12 says,
12 Therefore just as through one man sin entered
into the world, and death through sin, and so death
spread to all men, ON WHICH all sin.
We were legally guilty, and so all men received the penalty for Adam's sin.
That penalty was death, or mortality. In becoming mortal, or death-ridden,
we became morally weak or sick, and this, in turn, has caused us to sin. We
received death "the 1st death"— on which all sin .
What "the Last Adam" done on the cross imputed righteousness to our
account and deemed us righteous although we are not actually righteous, but
God calls us righteous because when we believe, God sees the Blood of His
Son as the covering upon our sins we have committed.
When Jesus comes back a second time as Joseph, he will have the 1st Great
Sabbath Day called the Feast of Tabernacles, where we will live with Him for
a thousand years. We will be a perfect church without spot or wrinkle because
Jesus is coming to bring us Life (immortality) and the 1st death will be totally
destroyed within us. We will no longer have sin in our members and the power
of God will be upon the earth even in a greater way than when the church was
empowered in the 1st century.
The Overcomers will live and reign with Christ and teach the people in that Age
the ways of the Lord. At the end of that Age, the devil will be loosed for a season
to give the Overcomers of that Age the opportunity to be used in the Lake of Fire
"the second death" by overcoming the wiles of the devil to qualify them as a leader
to teach the ex-unbelievers the ways of the Lord. These ex-unbelievers will be
believers after they stand before God at the Great White Throne and bow their knees
and confess that Jesus is Lord (Phil. 2:10-11). But, they will still have to be taught
the ways of the Lord, and that is where the Overcomers come in and teach them
how to live for God.
These people will still have sin in their members (mortality) but, they will be living in
the second death, a different set of rules will be in place. Veteran, you said, they will
be destroyed when they are thrown into the Lake of Fire. There is some truth in that
statement. I believe that the carnal man will be totally destroyed in the Lake of Fire,
but the new man will come forth out of the flames restored by the Blood that was shed
at the CROSS.
In essence, the cross didn't do them any good during their allotted time upon the earth.
They did like their brother Esau and gave up their ability to reign with Jesus. That's why
Jesus had another plan to save them. He knew from the beginning that He would have
many that would not accept him so He figured it all out before He created us.
The point is that Adam's transgression was reversed in Christ, whose
righteousness and righteous act on the cross brought life to all of creation.
Both acts were done outside of ourselves, not by our will. Likewise, even as
we all shared in the consequences of Adam's sin before our wills had been
formed, so also do we all share in the salvation brought about by Christ's
righteous act, which was done apart from our wills. Just as Adam's sin
resulted in every man's death, so also Christ's righteous act resulted in every
man being given life in the end.
Those who refused Christ during their life time on earth, will be judged according
to their works (Rev. 20:13).
Because all sin is reckoned as a debt, the great Judge will reckon each man's “debt"
according to his sin and according to his level of knowledge (Luke 12:48) and then
sentence him to be “sold” according to the law in Ex. 22:3. The purchaser will be an
overcomer, one with the character of Jesus Christ, who will be given authority and
responsibility to teach them righteousness by personal example and by force if
necessary. This judgment will endure until the Creation Jubilee.
Logabe
You're confusing the abode of the wicked called "hell" (KJV) with the future event called the "lake of fire". Per Revelation 20:14, the abode of 'hell' goes into... the "lake of fire". That means we MUST understand those as two separate objects as written.
Per Isaiah 30:33, God ordained the fire of symbolic Tophet "of old"; for the king (Satan) it is prepared; deep and large, and with much wood, and His Breath will kindle it. That's about the "lake of fire" of Revelation. It has NOT manifested... yet. It's still a future... event, only first applied to the beast and false prophet at Christ's return (Rev.19).
Yeah, I understand when the 'first death' started, with Adam. But now you're moving to another subject, the matter of Adam's sin. The very FIRST sin was not done by Adam. It was done by the Devil, for the devil sinned from the beginning according to 1 John 3:8. That's why Hebrews 2:14 tells us the devil was given power of death; it's because he was the one resposible for bringing it. Christ died on the cross to defeat both 'death' and 'the devil' it says.
We haven't paid the price, Christ Jesus did, upon His cross. That's why He is our GOD The Redeemer. Those who believe on Christ Jesus are redeemed by Him, through the price of Judas' thirty pieces of silver.
No, what our children decide to believe when they reach accountability to believe on Jesus or not, will not affect our status in Christ. Each individual will be held responsible to God for their 'own' choice.
Yeah, what Paul said was simple enough. All have been concluded in sin so that Salvation through Christ would be to those who believe on Him (Gal.3).
That's why Christ Jesus is now our Mediator to The Father for us. He's our Advocate before The Father. But the 'redemption' of our body is not yet, as Paul also covered in Rom.8; there's still a world to come when Jesus returns.
As Joseph??? You mean that metaphorically per Joseph's trials in Egypt, and the joining back to his family, right? Per Bible prophecy, that idea about Joseph is actually applied to the joining of the ten tribes of Israel back with their brethren of Judah, the kingdom of Israel being re-established by Christ Jesus at His return.
When our Lord Jesus returns to reign on earth with His elect, for a thousand years, the nations will still be establsihed on earth outside the holy city and Millennium sanctuary. And they willl stand... in judgment throughout that period (Ezek.44; Rev.22:14-15). Those nations will only be subject to the "second death", not the first death which is death in the flesh. When Jesus returns, the concept of the first death will be over, done, no more; it will end along with this present world, for it is OF this present world, not of the world to come under Christ. What many miss from Scripture, is how the wicked are going to be resurrected at Christ's second coming also, per John 5:28-29). Everyone... still alive on earth at Christ's return are going to be 'changed' to the "spiritual body" Paul taught in 1 Cor.15. But... ONLY those of the "first resurrection" will have Eternal Life through Jesus. The rest will still have a 'mortal' spirit with soul.
STOP! That idea is NOT... written anywhere... in God's Word.
What is written, is at the end of Christ's thousand years reign, the "dead" will be judged out of the Books, and those whose names are NOT found written in the Book of Life, those will go into... the "lake of fire", along with death and hell, and be destroyed.
The time of teaching the wicked comes after Christ's second coming, and will be DURING the "thousand years" period written in Rev.20. That's what Ezekiel 44 is about, even Ezekiel 40 through 48. We cannot just move that event into a time after... the end of the "thousand years" like you're trying to do! Once the thousand years and Satan's final tempting of the nations, and God's White Throne Judgment is over, it's over; then we go into His Eternity.
Veteran... All creation is waiting for the manifestation of the Sons of God.
Wonder why? Because that is the time of the restoration of all things that
the prophets wrote about. Acts 3:21 says,
21 whom heaven must receive until the period of
restoration of all things about which God spoke by
the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.
If the unbelievers have no hope after this life, what the heck is Paul talking
about in Romans 8:19,
19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits
eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.
Veteran... they can't anxiously be waiting to be destroyed for eternity... now
come on, you don't really believe that... do you?
Because man is a created being, he does not own himself. God owns all that
He has created. All the land belongs to God. Man was made from the dust of
the ground (land) and he was given a level of authority which gave him the
right to sell his land temporarily. He may sell himself into sin for awhile, even
for a lifetime. But he has never been given the right to sell his land for all time.
His land will always have to revert back to God at the Jubilee.
When man sinned, the "land" was sold. That is, Adam and his children and his
entire estate were sold into sin. In essence, God lost His inheritance in the earth.
It is for this reason that Jesus Christ came into the world to redeem His lost
inheritance.
The law of Jubilee demands an end to all liability for sin (debt) at some point
in the future. The law of Jubilee demands that all debts be cancelled at the
end of that final age. Then all creation will be set free into the glorious liberty
of the sons of God. Romans 8:21 says,
21 that the creation itself also will be set free from
its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the
glory of the children of God.
Paul said it... I don't know how Paul could have said it any better and clearer
than he did. Paul is saying the whole creation at some point in time will be set
FREE into the glory of the children of God. Did God create unbelievers? You
know he did... because we were one in the past, but thank God for His Mercy!
When God restores all things, then will Jesus' words be fulfilled in John 12:32,
33,
32 "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw
all men to Myself."
33 But He was saying this to indicate the kind of
death by which He was to die.
Did He die that death? You bet He did... and now He has the Plan to bring all men
unto Himself. Is this just wishful thinking, or do we really believe what Jesus just
said.
In Adam all mankind died, so also in Christ, the Second Adam, all mankind will be
made alive--but not all at once. Some will come into life in the first resurrection,
others at the general resurrection, but all others at the great Jubilee of creation.
Paul speaks of this day also in Colossians 1:16-20,
16 For by Him all things were created, both in the
heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether
thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all
things have been created by Him and for Him. . .
20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself,
having made peace through the blood of His cross;
through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things
in heaven.
Through the Logos, the Word, Jesus Christ, all things were created (John 1:3),
and through Him, all things will be reconciled to Himself. There will be nothing
left outside of His dominion in the end, as we read in Hebrews 2:8 and 9,
8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his
feet. "For in subjecting all things to him, He left
nothing that is not subject to him. But now we do
not yet see all things subjected to him.
9 But we do see Him who has been made for a little
while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus,
because of the suffering of death crowned with glory
and honor, that by the grace of God He might taste
death for everyone.
In this manner He "is the Savior of all men, especially of believers," as the Apostle
Paul tells Timothy in 1 Timothy 4:10. Those who are saved before the creation
Jubilee are indeed greatly blessed and will rule in His Kingdom. Yet in the end He
is also the Savior of ALL men, not just of the believers.
So also John sees all of creation rejoicing in the end. Revelation 5 says,
13 And every created thing which is in heaven and
on the earth and under the earth and on the sea,
and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him
who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing
and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."
How plain is that? This will never happen apart from the law of Jubilee, for most
of the creation yet remains in enmity against God. They are the ones in need of
the Jubilee, for, unlike true believers, they do not take advantage of the law of
redemption. The time of redemption ends with the Jubilee. And so we urge all
those who hear the Word of God to believe in Jesus Christ and learn what great
salvation He has given to men. Our message is that of the Apostle Paul, which he
wrote in 2 Corinthians 5,
18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled
us to Himself through Christ, and gave us the ministry
of reconciliation,
19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world
to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them
[the world], and He has committed to us [Christians] the
word of reconciliation.
20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though
God were entreating through us; we beg you on behalf
of Christ, be reconciled to God.
21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf,
that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
We have been given the ministry of reconciliation with a message of good news to give
the world. It is NOT the bad news of eternal torment or damnation, but the good news
that God has reconciled the world through Christ, who has paid the price for their
deliverance and salvation. This is the true Gospel of Jesus Christ, who was lifted up on
the cross, and therefore will draw ALL MEN unto Himself. This is not wishful thinking. It
is prophecy. It is a statement of intent. It is His promise to us and to the world. Let us
all rejoice in this good news of God's grace.
What a God... What a Plan!
Logabe
There's a huge problem in your line of reasoning about that Scripture, the unbelieving and wicked are not anxious for the world to come that starts with Christ's future second coming. They don't believe on The Father through His Son, nor in Christ's future "thousand years" reign with His elect, nor the new heavens and a new earth which will manifest in final. They instead... think this present world is going to continue forever as it is.
Yet God is long-suffering like Peter said, and doesn't want any soul to perish, and has ordained 'now' for all to come to Him through His Son Jesus Christ. As we can see still today, many aren't gonna' do that, but think to live without Him, even that He doesn't even exist! That's all gonna' change when Christ Jesus is revealed coming in the clouds on the last day of this present world. Then even those... will SEE Christ as He is, and will be without excuse, and assigned to the "outer darkness" during His thousand years reign, and they willl stand under judgment during that time. It is not... going to be a happy time for those who refused Him. Yet those who rejected Him during this present world will still... not have perished, yet. They must be taught the difference, and those will be taught, even against their own wills. That's what Christ's Apostles and the OT prophets were talking about that all knees will bow to Christ in that future time, and confess Him as Lord. I tell you, by The Holy Spirit, those cast to the "outer darkness" at Christ's return are going to suffer a greater emotional torment than they could ever imagine, which is why our Lord Jesus expressed being in that place like crying, wailing, and the gnashing of teeth (Matt.8:12; Matt.22:13).
Zeph 1:14
14 The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
(KJV)
Amos 5:18-20
18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.
19 As if a man did flee from a lion, and a bear met him; or went into the house, and leaned his hand on the wall, and a serpent bit him.
20 Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?
(KJV)
What Apostle Paul was talking about in that Romans 8 Scripture involves those who have believed on Christ Jesus as their Saviour. What he was teaching about the 'creation' also seeking a release from the state of bondage it has been in, involves the future manifesting of God's new heaven and a new earth, when wickedness and death are destroyed. That's the ultimate time of glory of the sons of God he was talking about, NOT this present world, nor even the future Milennium that begins when Christ returns.
Per God's Word, that world to come cannot be established in concert with wickedness.
2 Cor 6:14-18
14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, 'I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.'
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be My sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.'
(KJV)
Note by that God has a 'condition' in order for us to be His sons and daughters. His must separate themselves from unrighteousness and Belial. That is exactly... what Christ's future thousand years reign is going to do, and in final with God's Great White Throne Judgment after that.
Not you, not I, nor anyone, can change what our Heavenly Father has ordained for the end of the wicked who refuse Him through His Son. Each soul must make their own choice to either accept Him through His Son, or to perish. There is no other way of Salvation. Many men don't like that idea; doesn't matter if they like it or not; God has already ordained those to perish who reject Him through His Son Jesus Christ. Will you put your 'own' righteousness above God's Righteousness? You should know trying to do that is impossible.
The idea you're thinking that all men will accept His impelling to believe on Him (yes, that phrase "will draw" in the Greek can also mean 'to impel', 'to plead'), is naive, and does not align with God's Word. It's a doctrine of men that does not come from God in His Word. Now God's multiple times of forgiveness and... pleading all men to turn unto Him IS... well written of; as also of a time coming when His command to repent and receive forgiveness will end! That's the difference. Otherwise, it would mean Satan could make God a liar and breaker of His Promises, and we KNOW that ain't true.
The idea of universal salvation for all... men, even those who forever refuse to accept God, is an idea from this world, for the purposes of this world. It's being used as a mask to hide how the devil's servants plan to setup their 'own' world kingdom upon this earth in place of Christ's coming Kingdom, and a way to vainly attempt to reconcile the wicked by thinking they all will eventually... turn to Christ and stop their wickeness.
It's a great idea for the compassionately gullible, simply because no true believer on Jesus Christ wants any soul to perish, because we know our Heavenly Father does not want any soul to perish (2 Pet.3:9). Our compassionate attitude comes from God through His Son, not from humanism and the world, and God has already said what He will do with those who continue in wickedness and refuse Him. It's called the "second death" into the "lake of fire."
That is where you steer away from God's Word, and go into a tradition of men. That reconcilliation will never include Satan and his angels, nor the wicked who continue to follow the devil.
What Paul was teaching in 1 Cor.15 that all men die by Adam's sin, all shall be made alive through Christ as The Second Adam, is revealed in John 5:28-29 by our Lord Jesus Himself...
John 5:26-29
26 For as the Father hath life in Himself; so hath He given to the Son to have life in Himself;
27 And hath given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
(KJV)
By the Universalist Doctrine, it mostly denies the existence of that "resurrection of damnation" for the wicked. Those are the "dead" of Rev.20:5, and their future abode during Christ's future thousand years reign will be... outside the Holy City on earth (Rev.22:14-15). So even with Christ's future Millennium reign, a separation between the righteous and the wicked is going exist untl... what? Until the end of the thousand years and then those who still refuse Christ Jesus will suffer the "second death", cast into the "lake of fire" (Rev.20:11-15).
Thus what Universalists like yourself have done, is to want to see that future time of Christ's thousand years reign as a reconcilliation for all... men, even the wicked who will still refuse to accept Christ Jesus even once that period has ended. Nope! It's not going to happen that way. Those who still... join with Satan at the end of that period will receive the same fate he is to receive, destruction in the "lake of fire".
We cannot omit what God's Word says about Christ's direct future reign with a rod of iron over the wicked, which is what the following is about, and does not even begin... until Christ's second coming...
1 Cor 15:23-26
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For He must reign, till He hath put all enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
(KJV)
So there is going to be a final reckoning of the wicked, with their destruction? Yep!
Veteran... you say the Jews and Israel will have a second opportunity to accept
Jesus Christ... and I believe that too. So God is a respecter of persons according
to your theology... He will give the reprobate Jews and reprobate Israelites an
opportunity and they will accept Him, but them reprobate Gentiles have got to go
to Hell and participate in the most heinous slaughter ever known to man.
What's the point Veteran... the devil himself couldn't have thought of a better plan.
And you say a Loving God is actually going to perform this very act. That's what
the devil has deceived Christian people into believing. Yes... let's reason together
and try to figure out how God could, in His infinite wisdom, come up with such an
ungodly purpose and plan.
So you are telling me that the 1st Adam had more power than the Last Adam. Adam
brought the whole creation down, but Jesus could only save a few Jews and a couple
of Gentiles. Sounds like Jesus lost the battle for the souls according to your post.
Adam had a clean sweep and Jesus was a sore loser. Where is the Victory that was
performed at the cross?
No... a thousand times No... Jesus is the Saviour of the World and if He don't leave the
99 and go get the one, He has failed. But I have GOOD NEWS... as He said, He will go
get the ONE. He's a winner and we haven't seen all things put under Him yet, but you
just wait a little while longer and you will see the King of Kings destroy every demonic
doctrine that is out there. God's not a murderer... the devil is... and if you want to believe
that God will do such a thing... God will still forgive you because you know not what you
say.
Logabe
Nope! You got that wrong. I NEVER said anyone has a "second chance". What you most likely have missed is that not everyone has their 1st CHANCE to accept The Saviour during this present world. There's the difference!
Here's how it is for this present world...
Matt 13:11-12
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
(KJV)
Regarding the branch of Israel that was ordained to reject Christ Jesus by God having 'blinded' them, they have yet... to be given their 1st Chance to 'hear' with spiritual ears, and 'see' with spiritual eyes. Aposlte Paul tells us they have been blinded by God so The Gospel could also go to the Gentiles (Romans 11). You should have noticed this idea of 'eyes to see, and ears to hear' in Scripture, it originates even back in the Old Testament, and Apostle Paul even brought it up in his Epistles.
No one... is going to perish in the "lake of fire" until first... their spiritual blindness is removed by God. That is what Christ's "thousand years" reign is for, a time WHEN the blindness put upon many for this world will be completely removed. Or didn't you understand just why... Satan is locked in his prison pit for that thousand years? Teaching the differrence between the clean and unclean, holy and unholy, is going to be one of our main jobs under Christ Jesus for that "thousand years" (Ezek.44:23). If you plan on being part of Christ's elect who reign with Him, then you might want to brush up on this future duty.
Well, the devil certainly has you deceived about God's Plan of Salvation, that's for sure, because God's Plan of Salvation is for those who believe... on Him through His Son Jesus Christ, and actually want... to remain with Him forever!
The wicked who will still... refuse Christ after their eyes and ears are fully opened, will not want that, but will desire... to perish of their own... choice in refusing Him. It's just like the attitude of the rebellious servants of Satan today; if they can't be their own gods on earth, doing whatever they want to do without recompense, then they would rather be put to death (don't act surprised at that statement, some death row inmates have actually asked for the death penalty instead of having to try and correct their murdererous behaviour).
Ah, you're trying to put words into my mouth; that's falseness. Obviously you've failed to Biblically support your views of Universal Salvation for everybody, including the workers of iniquity, so now you're only recourse is to try and attack my credibility? God rebuke you.
We all... only have ONE. I've already had mine, and I TOOK IT when my Lord Jesus offered by calling me!
As I said before, they will be ex-workers of iniquity, because at the Great White Throne...
they will bow and confess that Jesus is Lord. That sounds like a change of heart to me...
what about you?
Veteran... Did the 1st Adam bring the whole creation down? I know your answer... so my
second question is... how many believers will Jesus bring back to Life? If it is less than a
100%... I don't want to put any words in your mouth, but I have read your post, and I think
your answer will be less than a 100%, but you tell me on the next post what it is.
If your answer is less than 100%... I have a 3rd question for you. Who do you think came
out on top? The 1st Adam or the 2nd Adam.
The whole creation will be set free one day and this will be a thing of the past. Everyone will
come to the knowledge of Jesus Christ and these limited doctrines will be done away with. I
know it's hard to comprehend @ this time God's wonderful salvation for all, but I'm not going
to rebuke you, I'm going to have Mercy on you, and pray that God gives you the ability to see
His Greater Plan that He has in store for all peoples. So, I'm going to leave you with something
to ponder, Eph. 1:9-10,
9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to
His kind intention which He purposed in Him
10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness
of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ,
things in the heavens and things on the earth; In Him
Logabe
Some simply refuse... to read and heed what Apostle Paul clearly stated about the blindness put upon a portion of Israel by God's Hand, for the purpose of His Salvation going also to the Gentiles...
Rom 11:25-32
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is My covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon all.
(KJV)
Rom 11:25-32
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is My covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon all.
(KJV)
O, I don't know about that. Where in the text does it say that blindness is from God's hand? Paul was an apparent exception, wasn't he. And many others as well. So is Paul saying that all Isreal was placed in either blindness or unbelief? I guess not. It would make him rather confused for all his attempts to persuade his fellow countrymen. On the other hand, all those who are in unbelief, God has concluded in unbelief.
As well, Paul also said that not all are Isreal who are of Isreal. He qualified that all who are in faith as Abraham, are considered to be spiritual Isreal. So then, all who are in faith are considered to be Isreal, and therefore all Isreal will be saved....by faith.
In fact, many of the Pharisees were called a brood of vipers by Jesus...whitewashed tombs, etc. There are many self righteous religious men. He claimed that those who exalt themselves are not justified, but rather those who humble themselves (Luke18:14).
As well, since Judas was of the physical Isreal, he would be included in the saved by your conclusion. But we know better. Do we take the word "all" to mean all those of human lineage then, or do we submit to both the gospel and Paul's qualification that only those of faith are the real Isreal? I don't think it is as cut and dry as some on either side claim.
However, this seems a digression from the topic. I agree with those who insist that Hades is not the Lake of Fire. My viewpoint is that Hades is like death row. There is torment, weeping, gnashing of teeth. But these belong to living beings. The Lake of fire is the second death (Gehenna), where both (human) body and soul are destroyed. Those are the words of Jesus ( Math.10:28).
Blessings, Howie
But truly, you don't... really know about that, honestly.
Rom 11:7-8
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
(KJV)
Paul was quoting that from Isaiah 29; might want to study it.
Read the Romans 11:25 verse again
Rom 11:25
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
(KJV)
Greek 'meros', a section or portion, or an allotment or division. (Strong's 3313).
This is why I keep recommending you all to not forget to study The Old Testament Books along with The New Testament Books, for those who have will more easily have understood this from Apostle Paul.
A PORTION of the children of Israel have been "blinded" by God having put a "spirit of slumber" upon them for this present time. And we can see that today with how the majority of Judah today still refuses to accept Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ, Messiah.
So who is the portion of Israel that has NOT... been blinded by God? Some... among the "house of Judah" have believed on Jesus Christ, which includes His Apostles and disciples, and later Jews. The great mass of Israelites that have believed are represented by the ten lost tribes of the "house of Israel", which were scattered among the Gentiles, and became as... Gentiles, and believed along with... many Gentiles when The Gospel was preached throughout Asia Minor and Europe. Those of the ten tribes and the portion of Judah that have believed represent that elect remnant which Paul spoke of at the start of Romans 11.
What Paul taught in Rom.9 doesn't change what he taught in Rom.11 about the flesh seed of Israel. In the Rom.11 chapter, he is specifically telling us that God has NOT... forgotten His chosen people of Israel which He did foreknow.
In other words, we as believing Gentiles on Christ Jesus CANNOT just dump God's choosing of the elect 'seed' of Israel, just because we believing Gentiles have been allowed to become part of God's Israel as... spiritual Israelites through Christ per Rom.9. In time, the portion of flesh Israel which God concluded under blindness will have their blindness removed, and the majority of them will accept Jesus Christ. That's essentially what Paul is saying by his quoting from the Old Testament prophets in the Rom.11:26-27 verses.
Once again, if you had studied The Old Testament Books LIKE YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO DO AS A CHRISTIAN, you could have understood how foreigners of the Canaanite nations had crept in among the "house of Judah" per Bible history, and that's who the 'scribes' were as with many of those priests and Pharisee's at His first coming. Our Lord Jesus was pointing to those pagan foreigners as the "synagogue of Satan" in Rev.2 & 3, those who CALL themselves Jews, but LIE and are not.
That's confusion away from Paul's Message in Rom.11 about God's election of the seed of Israel, and how God blinded a portion of them, while another portion He did not. And Judas may not have been a true Israelite, since many foreigners crept in among Israel per Bible history and took heritage as being of Israel (Esther 8:17; Nethinims of Ezra 2; Kenite scribes of 1 Chron.2:55; Canaanites of Judges 2 & 3 and Ezra 9, Nehemiah 9, etc.).
ALL... born flesh are offerred Salvation through The Blood of Jesus Christ. But as for the matter of election during this world, per God's Plan for this present world, who He has ordained, and how He ordained them DOES still matter today.
I'll accept this reply. The clarification is appreciated. There are certain connections that I may not agree with, but no matter. I have my own understanding about qualification for salvation, based on my studies. As long as we can see God's plan for His chosen within these qualifications, I am fine with however it plays out in this world.
But it still seems off topic to me. cheers, Howie
Hell is a old english way of avoiding persecution by the Church in the translation days. it was translated from four very different words.
Sheol = Grave
Hades = Grave
Tartaroo = the abyss = Black nothingness
Gehenna = the valley of Slaughter
Sheol = Grave
Hades = Grave
Tartaroo = the abyss = Black nothingness
Gehenna = the valley of Slaughter
Rom 5:15 /..... For if through the offence of one many* be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many*.
the Literal versions say "The many" in both places.
Rom 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
If you study these verses you should see that all were condemned because of Adam and the same shall be justified because of Christ.
That is what is written there whether you all believe it or not. Reiterated over and over in the entire chapter.
the Literal versions say "The many" in both places.
Rom 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
If you study these verses you should see that all were condemned because of Adam and the same shall be justified because of Christ.
That is what is written there whether you all believe it or not. Reiterated over and over in the entire chapter.
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