Good Works Vs Works Of The Law

[Heart2Soul]

I praise the Lord for the ignore button thoughtfully added to profiles. When I was young I enjoyed a good "sword fight ", but that's a game for children. How does one prove a spiritual truth to a carnal mind? It's a bit like running into a brick wall head first, expecting the wall to crumble. According to scripture, that isn't even a possibility. It's unsettling to me to encounter such blind obstinance on a "Christian " website, but the site is broadly ecumenical and the cults are definitely here. I am deeply grieved by people altering the gospel to fit their own theology, not because the gospel needs defense, but because Paul laid curses upon those who offered another gospel and because the day draws near and the immature are ill equipped to make a stand.

You don't....He does..
Some plant, some water....but it is God who gives the increase.
Have faith in the power of His Word...it will accomplish what He sent it to do...it won't return to Him void.
Speak the Word...
God Bless!

 

[Enoch111]

...If you don't have Christian works you are not a Christian...

This is not the same thing as saying that good works save anyone, or keep anyone saved. The ones who are saved are appointed unto good works, but the basis of their salvation is justification by grace through faith. So it boils down to having a poor understanding of justification. It is just amazing how many do not understand this Gospel truth.

 

[Brakelite]

Let me just set Calvinism aside and deal with Galatians in light of my argument given in Post #6.

Again you have works of the law no longer binding upon Christians being juxtaposed against works that are. They were observing days and months and years (i.e. Jewish holy days) as referenced in Galatians 4:10-11, which he taught as being unnecessary and would bring them back under bondage, and thus were not binding upon them. Yet he clearly emphasized the keeping of good works from Galatians 5:22 on, and even goes so far as to say that Christians will reap what they sow:

7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. 9 And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all, especially to those who are of the household of faith. (Galatians 6:7-10).

If through such good works they would reap eternal life if they sowed them, this necessitates he was saying they would not reap eternal life if they did not. So again we have a clear distinction between two different types of works: One binding upon Christians and relevant to eternal life if they do or do not keep them, and the other utterly unnecessary, and which would only bring them under bondage to the mere "grade school" principles as pertains to the things of this world.

Totally in harmony with Jesus' parable Matthew 25:31-46, with His own conclusion...
KJV Matthew 25:46
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Which upsets a lot of theories by clearly stating that our eternal life depends on what we do, not only on what, and whether we believe.

 

[TheslightestID]

How does one prove a spiritual truth to a carnal mind? .

You are mistaken. You may want to read back on exactly what the argument was. What I asked you to prove was not a spiritual truth, it was simply something yiu could not prove.

This board is rife with deception lately. fortunately the deceptions tell their own story.

 

[michaelvpardo]

You are mistaken, and you may want t read back on exactly what the argument was. What I asked you to prove was not a spiritual truth, it was simply something yiu could not prove.

This board is rife with deception lately. fortunately the deceptions tell their own story.

I've been posting here for at least a decade and its always newcomers, cultists and carnal minded babes in Christ that bring dissension, so, how long have you been a member of this on line community?

 

[TheslightestID]

I've been posting here for at least a decade and its always newcomers, cultists and carnal minded babes in Christ that bring dissension, so, how long have you been a member of this on line community?

Seriousely?

I see, the old, "I've been here longer than you" copout, as if that makes one even the slightest bit more in the right. LOL!

Thanks for the laughs, and you may have that last word.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Seriousely?

I see, the old, "I've been here longer than you" copout, as if that makes one even the slightest bit more in the right. LOL!

Thanks for the laughs, and you may have that last word.

Mockers will come in the last days so your kind is expected. Enjoy life while you can because judgment is at the door.

 

[Heart2Soul]

I'd like to put this up for debate, because I noticed something interesting about the following passage of scripture in Ephesians just this morning. I have always understood the phraseology used by Paul that "we are not saved by works" to refer specifically to not being saved by observing the works of the law, such as observing circumcision and Jewish unclean food laws.

Well if you look at the passage in context this seems to confirm it, because he immediately follows the phrase stating we are "not saved by works [of the law]" by adding that we are "created unto good works."

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. 11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. 17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. 18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.

After noticing this, I am all the more convinced that the principle of us "not being saved by works" applies specifically to not being saved by keeping the works of the Jewish ceremonial law, since they have no effect on things. Good works, however, are precisely what we have been created in Christ Jesus for, so leaving these things out of the equation would be to defeat the very purpose of the grace Paul was talking about here.

I invite friendly debate.
Hidden In Him.

I thought it is the heart that will be judged....
God Looks At Your Heart - The intentions of our heart

What you have to understand is that, when we SIN, God looks at the motivation behind the act, the intentions of the heart!
[God] has chosen for His work men of varied talents and varied capabilities. Some of these might not be the men you would choose, but you will pass through an experience that will lead you to see that God exalts men whom you would regard as inferior to yourselves.[1]

I Cor 4 (v. 5a) ....judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will....reveal the counsels of the hearts....
When the judgment shall sit, and the books are opened, many will be surprised by God's estimate of character. They will realize that God sees not as man sees, that He judges not as human beings judge. He reads the heart. He knows the motives that prompt the action, and He recognizes and commends every faithful effort put forth for Him.[1]

I Cor 4 (v. 5b) ....[and] then each one’s praise will come from God.

So, God judges you by what is in your heart, by your earnest and sincere efforts; rather than by what you can accomplish through your actions.


I Sam 16 (v. 7) ....For the Lord does not see as man sees; for man looks at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart.

God does not judge us by our outward behavior or our acts like man does, but by the intents and desires of the heart.
In the same way, we are all sorry that we have hopped into satan's pit and often feel there's no way out....We're all sorry for our sins, but we're more sorry when we realize....it already cost Jesus His life....I don't believe that we hop out of sin's hole by our own strength. The Bible says that without Christ we can do nothing (John 15:5). But we must have a will, a desire to be free.[2]

Rom 8 (v. 27) Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is....

Our deeds are judged by our motives, rather than by your performance!!

Let's see an example of this: "....we misunderstand the basis of fruit-bearing, thinking we are responsible for developing the fruit. So we say to ourselves, "I am going to work on patience as a fruit." "I'm going to work on love."....Can you develop these fruits? It's ridiculous![3]

Yet the devil convinces us of this, and we become determined to do it....
But what happens if we are abiding in the Vine? Love just comes out. If we take all, we will give all....you can't do it without Him. No matter how much determination you muster on your own, it will still be utterly impossible to develop these fruits."[3]

Now people will look at this fruit-bearing and determine that they have to do it, in order to qualify for the right to enter into heaven. Is this the right motivation? And when they look at themselves and notice that they are failing in performance, then they say "what's the use and give up."

But if we are abiding in the Vine, in order to show these fruits, so that it will draw people to Christ; then that is the right motivation. Because, living our life on this earth, shouldn't be about trying to make it to heaven! But rather, bringing glory to our Saviour!

So if we fail, at some point in our lives, to show "love" or the right kind of "patience," then the devil can't put thoughts into our minds saying "Oh you fell, you are lost, you better hurry up and repent, before you accidently die; then you will be with me in the hell! No, brothers and sisters, that is the wrong motivation.

Let’s take another look at the Apostle Paul’s struggle, between his heart’s desire and his sinful flesh.

Rom 7 (v. 15) For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I “will” to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do.

Are we experiencing the same trouble, that he was having?

What did the Apostle Paul discover about this SIN problem?

Rom 7 (v. 17) But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

He is referring to a “Law of Sin” that dwells in him.

Rom 7 (v. 23) But I see another Law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the Law of Sin which is in my members.




The Law of sin, is like the “Law of gravity”; constantly pulling us down towards self.

This is happening, even when you "rev-up" your mind to force your "will" against it!!
Rom 7 (v. 21) I find then a Law, that evil is present with me, the one who "wills" to do good. (v. 22) For I delight in the Law of God according to the inward man.
Just like the “Law of gravity,” this Law of Sin operates at 100% full-power all of the time against us.
Whenever you get tired, sick, or weak, that’s when you fall!!

Even though, this is the truth about SIN; the good news of the gospel is:

It is our converted “mind” that will go to heaven, and not our sinful nature!!

We will get a new glorified body, and the old body with our sinful nature will be destroyed when Jesus returns.

Phil 2 (v. 5) Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus....
So, the converted “mind” with all of its desires and right motives, will receive a new body, and the struggle with sin will be over.
Phil 3 (v. 20) ....which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ (v. 21) who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body....

So, if you are struggling with living a perfect sinless life, but your heart is right with God, then there is no condemnation for those who are “in Christ.”

Rom 8 (v. 1) There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are "in Christ" Jesus....
And as we shall see next, that does not mean that you have a license to sin either!!

An example of the right motivation:

Here is set forth the very spirit and character of the work of Christ. His whole life was a sacrifice of Himself for the saving of the world....He was giving His life for the redemption of the lost. Not in idle mourning,...is the true spirit of devotion manifested, but it is shown in the surrender of self in willing service to God and man.[4]

 

[Hidden In Him]

The problem is that people try to interpret verses out of context and in biblical interpretation, as in all communication, context is king. When trying to understand scripture you first have to ask yourself what the passage is about, what exactly is being addressed. Eg. Romans 2:6-7 isn't about the way of salvation, but contrasts saints with sinners in the context of judging people and ministering the gospel

Ok, I don't think there's any earthly way I'll be able to keep up with this thread accept by the grace of God, but let me at least address your first reference.

I've gotta respectfully disagree with you about those verses not having to do with salvation.

5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the Day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

"Tribulation" in verse 7 could certainly be taken as personal tribulation in some contexts, i.e. trouble in one's personal life, but his reference to the "Day of Wrath" in verse 5 is specifically about the judgment coming upon the unsaved in the Day of the Lord. This is also confirmed by his reference to "eternal life" and "immortality" in verse 7, which are juxtaposed against "indignation and wrath" in verse 8. It has to be about salvation, in every sense of the word actually.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Works of the Law, are religious rituals unique to Judaism. When people talk about the difference between the moral law and the ceremonial law it can be a bit confusing, since it was immoral for a Jew to disobey any one of them. A more accurate distinction is to divide the laws up into two categories: intrinsic morality vs extrinsic morality.

For instance, we are always obligated to obey intrinsic laws, because the ought-ness of the law is found within the behavior itself. Murder and adultery are always wrong no matter the cultural context or the historical time period. Such things are necessarily wrong in all social contexts and cultures.

On the other hand, some laws are extrinsic in nature because the rational justification for them lays outside of the behavior itself. The prohibition against mixing two types of cloth, for instance, finds relevance within a Jewish social contract whereby the people obey this ordinance because it identifies them as a unique and distinct people as compared to people from other cultures. It isn't a matter of rightness or wrongness of the act itself, it's just what Jew man or woman does in order to remain a Jew in good standing among his people.

Gentiles are not obligated to practice the extrinsic laws and rules because they find their rational within the Jewish context. But we are obligated to obey the intrinsically moral laws because they find their rational within themselves.

I agree. I would argue that adultery was actually acceptable in certain segments of Roman culture during NT times, hence Paul's reference to it appearing to be acceptable "among the Gentiles" in 1 Thessalonians 4:1-7. Verse 3 should be translated "sexual immorality" rather than "fornication," because verse 6 appears to be addressing adultery committed against a brother.

But aside from that we fully agree.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I provided Scripture. 'By works of Law no flesh is justified for by the law comes knowledge of sin... I would not have known what it was to covet except the Law said' do not covet'".
I guess words mean nothing to you. That's interesting. lol

Grace & Peace, since this is my thread I can make a few requests here and there. Please try to tone down being so confrontational. You're too quick on the draw sometimes. I'm following you because I agree with your theology and you appear to have a good head on your shoulders. Don't make me look bad by coming off like a jerk, LoL.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I Cor 4 (v. 5a) ....judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will....reveal the counsels of the hearts....
When the judgment shall sit, and the books are opened, many will be surprised by God's estimate of character. They will realize that God sees not as man sees, that He judges not as human beings judge. He reads the heart. He knows the motives that prompt the action, and He recognizes and commends every faithful effort put forth for Him.

Hi Sister!

The above verse (1 Corinthians 4:5) actually isn't in regard to salvation, but in regard to judging Christian leaders as worthy or not to lead. He starts verse 1 by saying, "Let a man so account of us as of ministers of Christ." The OP is directed more towards the relation of "works" to salvation.

Rom 8 (v. 27) Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is....

Wow! Look at all the verses! Let me just address one other one. So much to get to that I'll never make it past Page 3 without.

26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Again I would say this is about a different matter. The Lord does search our hearts for what we need prayer about the most (whether we are conscious of it or not), but again this is not in reference to salvation but to prayer.

My apologies for not getting to the entire post. Time is not permitting at present, but if there are others you cited that you think do pertain more to salvation, cite them for me again and I'll try to address it.

And thanks for the post. We've never quite seen eye to eye on this subject, but aways good to talk. :)

 

[Hidden In Him]

I suppose it goes without saying, but Paul's teaching would also apply to other religious rituals such as communion, baptism, marriage, Mass, unction, tithing, singing hymns. Any time we accept the idea that God's grace is mediated through religious rituals of any kind, we have strayed away from the gospel.

Very good statement, and far reaching theologically.

 

[GracePeace]

Grace & Peace, since this is my thread I can make a few requests here and there. Please try to tone down being so confrontational. You're too quick on the draw sometimes. I'm following you because I agree with your theology and you appear to have a good head on your shoulders. Don't make me look bad by coming off like a jerk, LoL.

1. Got it.
2. "Do not covet" is a work of the Law correct?

 

[Hidden In Him]

Actually, he did : he appends "for by the Law comes the knowledge of sin" to "for by works of Law" thus when he says "I would not have known sin unless the Law had said 'do not covet'" he's saying it's a work of the Law.

Here's something we might be able to discuss. Quote the full passage(s) here and how you roll this together for me, GP. I'd like to take it apart and look at it. I'm not sure the phrase "works of the law" is used, but then I'm not exactly sure what passage you are citing here either.

 

[Hidden In Him]

1. Got it.
2. "Do not covet" is a work of the Law correct?

Here's something we might be able to discuss. Quote the full passage(s) here and how you roll this together for me, GP. I'd like to take it apart and look at it. I'm not sure the phrase "works of the law" is used, but then I'm not exactly sure what passage you are citing here either.

Ah, I think I see where you are getting this from. If I understand you correctly, you're referring to Romans 2:15:

It should be pointed out that it appears Romans 2:21-23 could also (along with "do not covet" Romans 3:19-20+Romans 7:7) be read ("work of the Law" Romans 2:14-15) as concluding some other "10 Commandments" moral laws (prohibitions against theft adultery and idolatry) under "works of the Law" as well.

14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)

I think you are taking the phrase "they show the work of the law written on their hearts" to be referring to the "works of the law" as we have been discussing in this thread, but the sense in which Paul is using the phrase there in v.15 is of showing the product of the law written on our hearts, not showing "a work of the law" like circumcision. He's using the phrase in a different sense there.

 

[GracePeace]

Here's something we might be able to discuss. Quote the full passage(s) here and how you roll this together for me, GP. I'd like to take it apart and look at it. I'm not sure the phrase "works of the law" is used, but then I'm not exactly sure what passage you are citing here either.

Romans 3:20 "works of the Law... for by the Law comes knowledge of sin" Romans 7:7" I would not have known what it was to covet except the Law said 'do not covet'."

 

[GracePeace]

Ah, I think I see where you are getting this from. If I understand you correctly, you're referring to Romans 2:15:


14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)

I think you are taking the phrase "they show the work of the law written on their hearts" to be referring to the "works of the law" as we have been discussing in this thread, but the sense in which Paul is using the phrase there in v.15 is of showing the product of the law written on our hearts, not showing "a work of the law" like circumcision. He's using the phrase in a different sense there.

It's moreso all of it. Romans 2 factors In. Romans 3 is more explicit.

 

[Hidden In Him]

2. "Do not covet" is a work of the Law correct?

Not under the definition by which I define what he means by the phrase "works of the law." I consider Paul there to have been referring to ceremonial law.

I'm not really sure what you mean in saying, "so leaving these things out of the equation". Can you elaborate?

Much love!

Out of the equation of salvation. Hello Mark, and sorry for the late reply.

Not the commandments from the OT, though. What is binding on the Christian is to love others. The new/old law. Keeping the Law of Love, without any regard towards to the OT commandments will itself fulfill the OT commandments, in the way God wants them kept, by having a heart towards God and towards others. Not because of thinking I have to be doing things to be OK with God.

Define what you mean by "to be OK with God." Regarding salvation, or regarding conduct.

 

[GracePeace]

Ah, I think I see where you are getting this from.
...
I think you are taking the phrase "they show the work of the law written on their hearts" to be referring to the "works of the law" as we have been discussing in this thread, but the sense in which Paul is using the phrase there in v.15 is of showing the product of the law written on our hearts, not showing "a work of the law" like circumcision. He's using the phrase in a different sense there.

The phrase "work of the Law" to describe the Spirit writing the Law instead of the content He writes is too apt to be misunderstood for him to use it--it has to refer to the content. Remember Paul is saying the Gentile believers are in no way inferior to the Jewish believers--Jews have pedigree, Written Code, Circumcision... but the Gentiles have Torah in the heart, they have been circumcised by the Spirit in the heart Romans 2:29 and they will be in a position to judge.