Good Works Vs Works Of The Law

[mailmandan]

Everyone of them found in the Bible, that pertain to NT believers.

You think there’s nothing required of us as believers, such as the fact that Paul taught that remaining in Christ is conditional on continuing to walk in the light, as He is in the light...

I see that you did not answer my question. You teach salvation by works, but don't know how many works it takes to become or remain saved? I also see that you are confusing 'descriptive' passages of scripture with 'prescriptive' passages of scripture, which is typical of those who teach salvation by works. In regards to walking in the light, in 1 John 1:6, we read - If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. Walking in darkness is descriptive of children of the devil. Walking in the light is descriptive of children of God. Only those who are saved/believers are in the light.

Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.

2 Corinthians 6:14 - Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?

Ephesians 5:8 - for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light. Children of the devil walk in darkness, not in the light. Children of God walk in the light, not in darkness. IF confirms these positions in verses 6 and 7. It's one or the other.

In 1 John 2:9, we read - He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. In verse 11 - But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

*Compare with 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, (compare with 1 John 1:6 - does not practice the truth) nor is he who does not love his brother.
*Notice that "walks in darkness" and "hates his brother" is connected to "children of the devil."

 

[mailmandan]

...and continuing to walk after the Spirit, and not after the flesh..

In regards to walking after the Spirit and not after the flesh in Romans 8, Paul sets up a CONTRAST between those who live according to the flesh (unbelievers/false brethren) and those who live according to the Spirit (believers). In verses 8-9, Paul clearly states - So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. See the contrast?

Walking according to the Spirit is descriptive of children of God. Those who are habitually dominated by the sinful nature (unbelievers) put their minds on the things of the sinful nature, but those who are habitually dominated by the Spirit (believers) put their minds on the things of the Spirit. If a person’s intent is to live according to the flesh, it’s an indication that he is not saved. Yet if a person, by the Spirit is putting to death the deeds of the body, it's an indication he is saved.

Romans 8:13 (AMP) - for if you are living according to the [impulses of the] flesh, you are going to die. But if [you are living] by the [power of the Holy] Spirit you are habitually putting to death the sinful deeds of the body, you will [really] live forever.

*In Romans 8:28-30, believers have a wonderful promise from the Lord. And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them. *Notice how Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress it's certainty. :)

 

[mailmandan]

..or that Jesus didn’t say, you are my friends IF you do what I command you to do, nor say we must bear fruit or be cut off from Him as a dead branch..

Doing what Jesus commands is the demonstrative evidence that we are friends of Jesus. In regards to bear fruit or be cut off, in John 15:2-6, the branches that bear fruit and remain are genuine believers (like the remaining 11 disciples). The self-attached branches (cosmic connection) that bear no fruit and do not remain are not genuine believers (like Judas Iscariot). In John 15:2, Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then later stop bearing fruit.

Greek scholar AT Robertson points out that there are two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). Probably (Bernard) Jesus here refers to Judas.

John 15:2 Commentary - Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament

When Jesus spoke these words in John 15, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified, had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? - "the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 12:13) -- NONE.

John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the new covenant which was not yet fully established. Without that vital union with Christ, there can be no spiritual life and no productivity. Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, Christ neither saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the dead self-attached fruitless branches are cut off.

The word "abide" is from the Greek word "meno" which means to remain, tarry, not to depart, continue to be present. This is not something that only elite saints do. 1 John 4:13 - By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit... 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.

 

[mailmandan]

..yet Jesus said what we do in our bodies, good or bad, will send us to heaven or hell:

Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

What we do, even as believers, is part of our judgment by God, said Jesus.

Faith without obedience is dead.

Another perfect example of confusing a 'descriptive' passage of scripture with a 'prescriptive' passage of scripture. In regards to John 5:26-29, the good deeds of the redeemed (those who have done good) are not the basis or means by which they obtain salvation, but is the evidence of it. A person's conduct, whether good or evil, reveals the condition of his heart.

Matthew 7:15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

Doing good flows from a heart that is saved and doing evil flows from a heart that is unsaved. *Notice that ALL who come forth unto the resurrection of life (believers) are described as those who have done good and ALL that come forth unto the resurrection of condemnation (unbelievers) are described as those who have done evil. (vs. 29)

What did Jesus say in John 3:18? - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already.. In John 5:24, Jesus said - "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life."

So believers are described as "those who have done good" and unbelievers are described as those "who have done evil."

Faith without obedience (produces no works) demonstrates that it's dead. In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

 

[michaelvpardo]

Satan's OSAS license to sin has been revoked! No Christian works, NO SALVATION!

When were you appointed judge?
4 For I know of nothing against myself, yet I am not justified by this; but He who judges me is the Lord. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one’s praise will come from God. 1 Corinthians 4:4-5
Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand. Roman's 14:4
“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. John 5:24
How many times does the Lord have to say it before you believe it?
There was a young girl who turned from witchcraft to faith in Jesus Christ. Within only a few weeks she was shot dead at Columbine high school because when asked by the shooter if she believed Jesus Christ, she boldly answered yes.
What time did she have to do good works? She'll have a martyr's crown. Will you if it comes to it? Or do you think that she wasn't saved?

 

[michaelvpardo]

One answer is you are not the holy spirit, but you must have some way to prove what you say, yet, nothing.

Your other answer was my last comment was not worth replying too.

How obviousely convenient for you to blame it on me because you cannot back your stance. ;)

Can you prove that God exists?
"The just shall live by faith"
It's not my fault if you're faithless and carnal minded. That's the natural condition of man.
Read the scripture if you know Him and believe it, not just the select verses that bolster your corrupted understanding.

 

[GracePeace]

Yes, but only circumcised for the sake of becoming all things unto all men that they might reach some (in this case the Jews), not because they were still placing them under Jewish ceremonial law.

There is no "but"--we made the same point.

This is an excellent text to bring up in this context. For me, however, the text speaks of the relationship that Grace puts us in as believers. We are expected to perform good works or we are not true servants to the Master, and not fit to be His servants. But the works are not some astonishing thing we have performed or ever will, but rather simply what was expected of us as His servants.

1. Those disciples WERE "Jews". lol Yeah he wasn't addressing the rabbis. Note though that Peter didn't stop observing the Law. He answered back to God "No, for I have never eaten anything unclean," when he was told to eat unclean things in the vision. The Gospel was still not entirely clear to them at that point. They didn't even understand Gentiles could be saved since they were surprised when they found out the Gentiles were granted the Gift.
2. I really thought the discussion was about the difference between "works of Law" and "good works" not "do we have to do good works?" since that is already granted (? ).

Agreed.

Got it. :)

On this, I would disagree with Wright, at least as far as things like coveting. This is not Jewish ceremonial Law but included under the 2nd greatest commandment. But here is where I think things get very delicate, because nowhere in Romans 7 is ha actually referring to "works of the law" but rather obedience to the law, i.e. the good works in the law that Christians are still expected to keep.

You're actually in agreement with NT Wright.

I disagree with you and Wright--Romans 3:20 says "by works of Law... comes the knowledge of sin" and Romans 7:7 says "I would not have known what it was to covet except the Law had said 'do not covet'." Same wording. I know it complicates matters but I trust where God leads.

 

[GracePeace]

@Hidden In Him Sorry looks like I responded to your post more than once. This thread has become an off topic nightmare. Little confusing on my phone.

 

[TheslightestID]

Hello I believe it is possible to show and instance where Jesus Christ is talking directly and explicitly to His disciples. Will be using the great commission and adding comments going along. From the text of Matthew 28:16-20.

Matthew 28:16-20
16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go.

Verse 16: (After everything previously). Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee,
to the mountain which Jesus had to them to go.​

17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted.

Verse 17 : When they came there to the mountain which Jesus told them to go; they worshiped Him; they fell before him, and worshipped out of love, but some doubted.​

18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Verse 18: Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me." So He is there with the eleven disciples telling what authority that has been given to him that the Lord now wields.​

19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Verse 19: Still talking to his disciples there with Him; listening to what He has to say continues on to them ~ Therefore since all of the authority in heaven and earth has been given to me. Go forth now, unto making disciples of all the inhabitants of the land, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

(The nations around at that time period : ethnos: a race, a nation, pl. the nations (as distinct from Isr.) is the word for nations.)
Strong's Greek: 1484. ἔθνος (ethnos) -- a race, a nation, pl. the nations (as distinct from Isr.)​

20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Verse 20: Still talking to his disciples; He told them to go on to teach them to obey ; everything that was commanded unto the Disciples who had been with Jesus Christ for the past three years during his ministry. And that He will and is with them always, to the very end of the age. (The ending of the age of their generation.) ~ Death​

This is one of the most used text when it comes to doing mission trips and whatever, personally believe that the truth is plain in the text, as far as whom is being spoken to very explicitly.

Also : Gentiles never received the law to follow: Only the the Chosen Nation of God which was Israel was given the commandments by Moses ( I believe; correct if wrong). The Gentile - Greeks did not receive the law I believe according to the scriptures you might have to fact check me on that because it is possible for me to be wrong sometimes. When it comes down to commandments ; the only two commandments given by and from the Lord Jesus Christ which are the greatest is to Love God with all your of mind, all of your heart, all of your strength, all of your soul, and to Love others as yourself is fulfilling the law of Christ ~ Which is to have faith and to love.

Thank you for asking for it to be done, and hope that you found informative and helpful you take care.

Not seeing it. And why in the world would he just tell it to his deciples when the whole world was his concern?

It simply doesn't add up.

 

[TheslightestID]

Can you prove that God exists?
"The just shall live by faith"
It's not my fault if you're faithless and carnal minded. That's the natural condition of man.
Read the scripture if you know Him and believe it, not just the select verses that bolster your corrupted understanding.

Im having this conversation with a supposed Christian...no need to prove God exists.

But no need to change the subject, I mean if you cannot prove it, just leave it at that.

 

[MatthewG]

That’s fine. Take care.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Im having tji3s conversation with a supposed Christian...no need to prove God exists.

But no need to change the subject, I mean if you cannot prove it, just leave it at that.

I've already provided multiple "proof" verses in this thread, you're just having an unbelieving heart. I hope that you're more careful in your reading of scripture than you are in the reading of this thread.
The Lord will teach you as long as you don't blaspheme His Spirit. Being confident in your faith is a good thing, but denying those things which scripture plainly states will only bring you suffering and sorrow if you are indeed His.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Doing what Jesus commands is the demonstrative evidence that we are friends of Jesus. In regards to bear fruit or be cut off, in John 15:2-6, the branches that bear fruit and remain are genuine believers (like the remaining 11 disciples). The self-attached branches (cosmic connection) that bear no fruit and do not remain are not genuine believers (like Judas Iscariot). In John 15:2, Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then later stop bearing fruit.

Greek scholar AT Robertson points out that there are two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). Probably (Bernard) Jesus here refers to Judas.

John 15:2 Commentary - Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament

When Jesus spoke these words in John 15, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified, had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? - "the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 12:13) -- NONE.

John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the new covenant which was not yet fully established. Without that vital union with Christ, there can be no spiritual life and no productivity. Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, Christ neither saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the dead self-attached fruitless branches are cut off.

The word "abide" is from the Greek word "meno" which means to remain, tarry, not to depart, continue to be present. This is not something that only elite saints do. 1 John 4:13 - By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit... 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.

What many people seem to miss or willfully ignore is the passage in Roman's about the future restoration of the Jews:
16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. Roman's 11:16-18
Paul went on to warn the gentile church of Rome that the same thing could happen to them, but then sums up his argument in verses 28 to 32:
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. Roman's 11:28-32
While verse 32 is by no means a proof of some universal salvation, it does express the idea that no one is beyond salvation and that such is totally dependent upon God's mercy.

 

[TheslightestID]

It's ok to be a little slow. I have a friend who was brain damaged at birth, but he's still very much a believer and has spoken prophetically by the power of the Holy Spirit. The Lord will teach you as long as you don't blaspheme His Spirit. Being confident in your faith is a good thing, but denying those things which scripture plainly states will only bring you suffering and sorrow if you are indeed His.

I see you are now being abusive in attempt to hide the fact you have no proof of what you claim.

Again, it will be much easier on you to simply admit your error and move on, yet you use very unchristian ways to make your unchristian point, and, of course, it makes perfect sense you would.

 

[michaelvpardo]

I see you are now being abusive in attempt to hide the fact you have no proof of what you claim.

Again, it will be much easier on you to simply admit your error and move on, yet you use very unchristian ways to make your unchristian point, and, of course, it makes perfect sense you would.

I actually edited and removed my opinion of your mental acuity as it serves no good purpose, but I've posted many "proof" verses. However, I have no power to make you believe the word of God, that's the Holy Spirits job. You either have His Witness in you or you don't belong to Him.

 

[TheslightestID]

I actually edited and removed my opinion of your mental acuity as it serves no good purpose, but I've posted many "proof" verses. However, I have no power to make you believe the word of God, that's the Holy Spirits job. You either have His Witness in you or you don't belong to Him.

Still no proof, I see....oh well.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Still no proof, I see....oh well.

Would you like a cookie with your milk?

 

[Heart2Soul]

I'd like to put this up for debate, because I noticed something interesting about the following passage of scripture in Ephesians just this morning. I have always understood the phraseology used by Paul that "we are not saved by works" to refer specifically to not being saved by observing the works of the law, such as observing circumcision and Jewish unclean food laws.

Well if you look at the passage in context this seems to confirm it, because he immediately follows the phrase stating we are "not saved by works [of the law]" by adding that we are "created unto good works."

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. 11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. 17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. 18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.

After noticing this, I am all the more convinced that the principle of us "not being saved by works" applies specifically to not being saved by keeping the works of the Jewish ceremonial law, since they have no effect on things. Good works, however, are precisely what we have been created in Christ Jesus for, so leaving these things out of the equation would be to defeat the very purpose of the grace Paul was talking about here.

I invite friendly debate.
Hidden In Him.

Hey brother, this is your thread and have you abandoned it? I am just wondering...would you look at mailmandan's post and see if it is following along the topic you have presented?
Thanks.

 

[Heart2Soul]

@TheslightestID and @michaelvpardo
I am considering opening up a poll with this thread to have members cast their vote on which of you will get the last and final word here...
:)

 

[michaelvpardo]

@TheslightestID and @michaelvpardo
I am considering opening up a poll with this thread to have members cast their vote on which of you will get the last and final word here...
:)

I praise the Lord for the ignore button thoughtfully added to profiles. When I was young I enjoyed a good "sword fight ", but that's a game for children. How does one prove a spiritual truth to a carnal mind? It's a bit like running into a brick wall head first, expecting the wall to crumble. According to scripture, that isn't even a possibility. It's unsettling to me to encounter such blind obstinance on a "Christian " website, but the site is broadly ecumenical and the cults are definitely here. I am deeply grieved by people altering the gospel to fit their own theology, not because the gospel needs defense, but because Paul laid curses upon those who offered another gospel and because the day draws near and the immature are ill equipped to make a stand.