God's Just and Merciful Gospel.

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Brakelite

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I have a challenge. Please read carefully the following, and then answer the concluding questions using Scripture only as the basis for your answers.

1 Peter 1:18,19 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

2:24,25 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls
3:18 ¶ For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit.

1 Cor. 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures

In light of the above scriptures, and many more such besides,(Rom. 3:25,26. 5:8,9. 6:10. Colossians 1:20-22. Heb. 9:15,16,22.) my question is.....
When Jesus died upon the cross of Calvary, was this act a full and final settlement of the debt we owe due to our sin? In other words, has the full redemption price been paid, and what was that price?

Okay, that the full and final redemption price has been paid on behalf of a lost race would be disputed by few who know their Bibles. That Jesus paid the price, taking upon Himself the full punishment that was rightly due sinful man, is the great central theme of the gospel, in fact, all of scripture. It is called by many names. Redemption. Atonement. Salvation. Vicarius sacrifice. Propitiation. They all mean one and the same thing. That the just died for the unust. The sinless for the sinner. Christ died in our place. The punishment and full penalty that belonged justly and rightly to us, was laid upon Christ. He died that we might live. Very few would dare to argue with this most profound and fundamental of Biblical truths. And there are scores of scriptures that verify and support this most wonderful doctrine.
Romans 3:25,26; 5:8,9; 6:10.
Colossians 1:20-22.
Hebrews 9:15,22.
1 Peter 1:18,19; 2:24; 3:18.
Revelation 5:9

These are but a small selection but enough to deduce the following basic principles inherent in the atonement.

1 Because death is the due and just penalty for sin (Rom. 6:23), death therefore was the redemptive price.
2 Jesus, through the shedding of His own blood and His vicarius death upon the cross, paid that price in full.
3 Those who for whatever reason reject the offer of forgiveness inherent in the atonement, and thus are not included in the number of the redeemed, must pay the price themselves.

If the above be true, I have a number of questions.
a Why is it that the majority of Christian churches today teach that men who die in their sins do not die, but live for all eternity being tortured in hell?

b If it be true that eternal torment is the just penalty for sin, then why did Jesus not pay it?

c If the reward for those who do accept the gospel is eternal life (John 3:16,36; Rom. 6:23) and no churches deny this, why do those same churches insist that the wicked also receive eternal life, which is denied by the very same scriptures?(John 3:16,36; Rom. 6:23)

d And finally, if eternal torment is the just penalty for sin as most contend, we must logically conclude that because Jesus did not pay that price, then the gospel is a sham and we all, both Christian and pagan alike, are doomed to spend eternity suffering together.
 

Windmill Charge

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A/ there is a reward of eternal, ife with God and a punishment of eternal life in he'll.

B/ Jesus paid for ALL sins, but sinners have to accept his payment, if they don't they are liable to pay the penalty for their sins.

C/ answered in A.

D/ How do you conclude that Jesus didn't pay the penalty for sin?
You've quoted enough scripture that says he did.
 

Jack

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Revelation 20:10
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

The exact same fate for BILLIONS of humans:

Matthew 25:41
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
 

quietthinker

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Just as many assumptions are made by those holding to the later of your questions, I would suggest that assumptions are also made with your earlier statements....a couple listed below
When Jesus died upon the cross of Calvary, was this act a full and final settlement of the debt we owe due to our sin? In other words, has the full redemption price been paid, and what was that price?
Did we owe a debt to God? If so, what was that debt?
Okay, that the full and final redemption price has been paid on behalf of a lost race would be disputed by few who know their Bibles. That Jesus paid the price, taking upon Himself the full punishment that was rightly due sinful man, is the great central theme of the gospel, in fact, all of scripture.
Did God require punishment or was the consequence of certain choices the inevitable....that which they were warned about?

I propose this:- It was Adam and Eve who thought punishment was coming their way. They were fearful enough to hide from their only friend. When they eventually caught up, their friend was bearing gifts, 'here, these are more comfortable than scratchy leaves'...and by the way, 'who told you, you were naked'

I would ask, where did that awareness come from?

....and why is it assumed that 'skins' meant that of an animal? Did God kill an animal for their skin? Does God need to kill to get skins? There are other questions associated with these implications, the most glaring is, did God engage in killing (death) to supply a gift?
 

Jack

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"God's Just and Merciful Gospel."

He is indeed. And He drowned all but 8 on Earth "making them an example".
 

quietthinker

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"God's Just and Merciful Gospel."

He is indeed. And He drowned all but 8 on Earth "making them an example".
Murderers kill because they think it will solve an issue for themselves. They make a example of them by telling others, I'm gonna do this to you when you cross me.

How can anyone love this kind of attitude? Is this the heart of the God who Created the Universe?......or maybe some of us relish it.....giving lots of cheers for the sustained murders (because somebody has crossed someone else's line) in any corner of the World.
 

Jack

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Murderers kill because they think it will solve an issue for themselves. They make a example of them by telling others, I'm gonna do this to you when you cross me.

How can anyone love this kind of attitude? Is this the heart of the God who Created the Universe?......or maybe some of us relish it.....giving lots of cheers for the sustained murders (because somebody has crossed someone else's line) in any corner of the World.
You're calling God of the Bible a murderer???
 

Jack

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I'm not Jack.....are you?
I ask because the positions you regularly defend is that of a murderer.
I defend the Christian Bible that says God drowned all but 8 on Earth, "making them an example"! You call that murder?
 
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Jack

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I called Moses's account of God drowning people Murder.
Didn't you know that God didn't write those accounts?
God didn't "write" any of the Bible. But He is the Author!

Luke 17:26-27
26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.
 

quietthinker

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God didn't "write" any of the Bible. But He is the Author!

Luke 17:26-27
26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.
looking at it from your perspective Jack, Jesus was at odds with many things written by Moses when he said repeatedly ' you have heard said but I say unto you....' then he said the opposite.
Does that mean that Jesus was opposed to your claim of God authoring what Moses wrote?
 

Jack

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looking at it from your perspective Jack, Jesus was at odds with many things written by Moses
Your imagination! The NT absolutely confirms the Genesis Flood. Did you read where God burned Sodom alive, "making them an example"? Jesus also confirmed that literal event.
when he said repeatedly ' you have heard said but I say unto you....' then he said the opposite.
Does that mean that Jesus was opposed to your claim of God authoring what Moses wrote?
Jesus was giving us the New Covenant that CHANGED drastically from the Law of Moses. Jesus never said Moses was wrong! Even the New Covenant teaches the FEAR of God. You should read it some time before you stand before God of the Bible. Have you read what Jesus said about Hell Fire?
 

quietthinker

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Your imagination!

Jesus was giving us the New Covenant that CHANGED drastically from the Law of Moses. Even the New Covenant teaches the FEAR of God. You should read it some time before you stand before God of the Bible. Have you read what Jesus said about Hell Fire?
You still need to reconcile your idea of CHANGE with statements like 'God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow'

Hebrews 13:8 'Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and for ever.
Malachi 3:6 'God says, “For I am the LORD, I do not change; therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob.”.
 

Jack

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You still need to reconcile your idea of CHANGE with statements like 'God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow'

Hebrews 13:8 'Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and for ever.
Malachi 3:6 'God says, “For I am the LORD, I do not change; therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob.”.
God ABSOLUTELY cannot change. Be He certainly can give us a NEW Covenant. And He did.
 

David Lamb

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Your stated views do not support each other, in fact they contradict.
How does the view that God does not change contradict the view that He gave a new covenant? Both are taught in the bible:

“"For I am the LORD, I do not change; Therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob.” (Mal 3:6 NKJV)

“"Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah — ” (Jer 31:31 NKJV)
 
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