God begets God?

[Johann]

Tovia Singer is a Jewish monotheist who does not believe Jesus is the Messiah. He’s no friend of mine.

Christian apostasy has been going on since the 1st century.

Yes, but it’s worth noting that Jewish apostasy also has a significant history and precedes Christian apostasy. The Old Testament is filled with accounts of Israel turning away from God, worshiping idols, and rejecting His prophets. Passages like Jeremiah 2:13 ("My people have committed two evils: they have forsaken me, the fountain of living waters, and hewed out cisterns for themselves, broken cisterns that can hold no water") and Hosea 4:1-2 reflect this repeated pattern of apostasy.

Even during Jesus' time, many of the Jewish leaders rejected Him as the Messiah despite the prophecies pointing to Him. In John 5:39-40, Jesus rebukes them, saying, "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life."

So, while Christian apostasy began to emerge as the Church expanded in the 1st century (as seen in warnings like 2 Timothy 4:3-4), it’s fair to say that the roots of turning away from God’s truth are a pattern seen even earlier in Jewish history.

Problematic, isn't it? Who is blaming who now?

J.

 

[APAK]

I agree with you that creation was made with Christ in mind. The Bible makes it clear that Christ is central to God’s plan from the very beginning. For example, in John 1:3, it says, "All things were made through Him, and without Him was not anything made that was made." So, Christ wasn’t just part of the plan for salvation, He was actively involved in creating everything in the first place.

In Colossians 1:16-17, it says, "For by Him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible... all things were created through Him and for Him." This shows that not only did Christ create everything, but everything was created for Him-which means creation has its ultimate purpose in Him.

I also agree that Christ’s role in salvation was planned before the foundation of the world. Ephesians 1:4-5 tells us that God chose us in Christ before the world was even made. And even back in Genesis 3:15, we already see hints of God's plan to send a Savior through the seed of the woman-this is pointing to Christ, who would defeat Satan.

So, when you say that creation was critical to God's plan for salvation, you're absolutely right. Christ’s coming, His death, and His resurrection were all part of God's plan from the start. Revelation 13:8 even refers to Jesus as the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, showing that His sacrificial role was already part of God’s purpose before creation began.

It’s amazing to think about how everything, from creation to salvation, points to Christ. God created the world with a purpose, and that purpose was to bring about redemption through Jesus. So, in a way, creation was always leading to Him and His saving work for humanity.

Thanks for your contribution @APAK.

J.

The thing is though, Col 1:16-17 is not about the Genesis creation at all, if you thought this. Why most want to see this that is not in the context of Paul's writing is beyond me. I guess to rush in and say Christ was involved in Genesis, and he was not even present....

This 'par' -' all' (no all encompassing) of creation is specific in meaning and critical to understand, as a portion of creation, of Jesus' creative powers given to him by his father since he ascended to heaven. Paul speaks to this creative work as to build and sustain the growing church.

Read along with me and see the context, and that is does not involve the Genesis creation..it is of a newer creation and for new creatures..

(Col 1:15) who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

(Col 1:16) For in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things have been created on account of him and for him.

(Col 1:17) And he is superior to all things, and in him all things consist.

(Col 1:18) And he is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; so that in all things he might have the pre-eminence.

(Col 1:19) For it was the good pleasure of the Father that in him should all the fullness dwell,

(Col 1:20) and through him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of his cross- yes, to reconcile all things through him, whether things upon the earth, or things in the heavens. (NEV)


To reconcile..things upon the earth or in heaven..this is the creative work(s) causes by the Son of God....Sorry no Genesis here...

 

[TLHKAJ]

Great verse! Already quoted @TLHKAJ!

Johann.

You guys have it already in hand!

 

[Matthias]

Yes, but it’s worth noting that Jewish apostasy also has a significant history and precedes Christian apostasy. The Old Testament is filled with accounts of Israel turning away from God, worshiping idols, and rejecting His prophets. Passages like Jeremiah 2:13 ("My people have committed two evils: they have forsaken me, the fountain of living waters, and hewed out cisterns for themselves, broken cisterns that can hold no water") and Hosea 4:1-2 reflect this repeated pattern of apostasy.

Even during Jesus' time, many of the Jewish leaders rejected Him as the Messiah despite the prophecies pointing to Him. In John 5:39-40, Jesus rebukes them, saying, "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life."

So, while Christian apostasy began to emerge as the Church expanded in the 1st century (as seen in warnings like 2 Timothy 4:3-4), it’s fair to say that the roots of turning away from God’s truth are a pattern seen even earlier in Jewish history.

Problematic, isn't it?

J.

I don’t think it‘s problematic. God and the Messiah have allowed it to happen.

People have been tested in the past, are being tested in the present, and will be tested in the future.

Jewish monotheism, not necessarily all Jewish monotheists, will pass the test.

 

[Johann]

The thing is though, Col 1:16-17 is not about the Genesis creation at all, if you thought this. Why most want to see this that is not in the context of Paul's writing is beyond me. I guess to rush in and say Christ was involved in Genesis, and he was not even present....

This 'par' -' all' (no all encompassing) of creation is specific in meaning and critical to understand, as a portion of creation, of Jesus' creative powers given to him by his father since he ascended to heaven. Paul speaks to this creative work as to build and sustain the growing church.

Error-here's why. And Messiah was/is very much present.

Let’s break this down because it’s important to get this right. You’re saying Colossians 1:16-17 isn’t about the Genesis creation, but that just doesn’t hold up when you look at the text or Scripture as a whole.

First, Paul explicitly says, “By Him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible.” He even lists “thrones, dominions, rulers, and authorities” to emphasize that this isn’t limited to something like the Church. It’s talking about the cosmos-everything physical and spiritual. That’s not just about building the Church; it’s about the entire universe.

You disagree of course @APAK

Now, let’s go wider. John 1:3 says, “All things were made through Him, and without Him was not anything made that was made.” This directly connects Christ to the Genesis creation. If He wasn’t involved in creation, then John’s statement doesn’t make sense.

Same with Hebrews 1:2, which says, “Through whom also He created the world.” The Greek word here, aionas, refers to the ages, meaning the entirety of creation, both time and space.

And if you’re thinking Paul only means "new creation" in Christ, let me point out that when Paul talks about new creation, like in 2 Corinthians 5:17, he’s very clear and specific. But in Colossians 1:16-17, he’s not using metaphorical language. He’s talking about creation as a whole: heaven, earth, visible, invisible-everything.

You also mentioned that Christ wasn’t there in Genesis. That’s a big claim, but it doesn’t hold up biblically.

Proverbs 8:22-31, which is often linked to Christ as Wisdom, says, “When He established the heavens, I was there.” And if that’s not enough, Revelation 13:8 calls Jesus “the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world,” showing that Christ’s role was planned and active from the very beginning.

Lastly, Colossians 1:17 says, “In Him all things hold together.” That’s not just about the Church. It means Christ sustains the entire universe. If you limit this to the Church, you’re shrinking the scope of what Paul is saying.

Bottom line: Colossians 1:16-17 is cosmic in scope. It’s not just about the Church; it’s about all of creation-everything seen and unseen. Christ wasn’t just the plan for salvation; He’s the Creator and Sustainer of everything.

Heb 1:2 has in these last days spoken unto us by His Son, whom He has appointed Heir of all things, by whom also He made the worlds,

made. Heb_3:3-4, Gen_1:1, Job_38:4, *Psa_33:9; +*Psa_93:1, Pro_8:27, Isa_42:5; Isa_66:2, Jer_27:5; *Jer_32:17; Jer_51:15, Jhn_1:10; Jhn_5:17, Act_17:24, Eph_3:9, 1Pe_4:19, Rev_4:11.

The text doesn’t leave room for any other interpretation when you let Scripture speak for itself.

J.

 

[Johann]

I don’t think it‘s problematic. God and the Messiah have allowed it to happen.

People have been tested in the past, are being tested in the present, and will be tested in the future.

Jewish monotheism, not necessarily all Jewish monotheists, will pass the test.

All of us must work out our OWN salvation with fear and trembling and my boast is in Christ Jesus and His finished work on the cross, death and resurrection.

Who is going to pass the test is not for you to decide @Matthias.

J.

 

[Johann]

You guys have it already in hand!

God bless you @TLHKAJ.

Johann.

 

[APAK]

Totally ignoring the context and in what Paul wanted to say to his audience. It was never about Genesis. You do know why Paul wrote to the Colossians, right? Not about Jesus being at Genesis or even, worse, creating everything at the expense and consideration of his Father, the true one God.

The Greek word par for 'all' is not EVERYTHING. It is not all encompassing here...check it out.....it is all about the church and the new creation, not about the old PHYSICAL creation.

I would take some time and really meditate upon this all important area of scripture.

Now let me provide notes of more (much more) and from others, compiled years ago to bring you more insight to this critical subject and context of Paul.

It is suited for a classroom subject of discussion.

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Who did Paul believe the Creator to be?​

The apostle Paul, 1635, by Rembrandt., (Photo by DeAgostini/Getty Images)

In Paul’s opening remarks to the Colossians, he identifies God as the Father, while Jesus is Lord and the Christ, that is, the one anointed by God:

Colossians 1:1-3 (NASB) Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, 2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ who are at Colossae: Grace to you and peace from God our Father. 3 We give thanks to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you, (emphasis added)

Moreover, in his letter to the Corinthians, Paul unmistakably identifies God the Father as the one God, while Jesus is again designated as Lord and Christ:

1 Corinthians 8:6 (NASB) yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him. (emphasis added)

When Paul addressed those gathered on Mars Hill in Athens, he taught that it was God who made the world and all things in it:

Acts 17:24-25, 30-31 (NASB) 24 “The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; 25 nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things…30 “Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, 31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.”

Notice that Paul differentiates between God, who made the world, and Jesus. God is the Creator, whereas, Jesus is the man whom God resurrected and appointed as judge. From this point forward in our examination, whatever Paul says to the church in Colossae must not contradict what he has, under the inspiration of the Spirit of God, written elsewhere.

Context​

In chapter one, Paul writes concerning the redemption of man and the coming of the kingdom:

Colossians 1:12-14 (NASB) giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light. 13 For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. (emphasis added)

Paul credits God the Father with qualifying, rescuing, and transferring believers into the kingdom, which according to Scripture, he has given to Jesus.[1] For this reason, the apostle gives thanks to the Father alone without including the Son or the Spirit. In fact, six times in this letter, Paul speaks of giving thanks, and it is always to God, who is the Father.

Now Paul’s emphasis turns to discussing the pre-eminence or supremacy of the king in the coming kingdom. He does so by using such words as firstborn, before, head, the beginning and first place:

Colossians 1:15-18 (NASB) He [Jesus] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. (emphasis added)

Jesus is the image of God​

In verse 15, Paul writes that Jesus is the image of the invisible God. Some interpret this to mean that Jesus is himself, God, and for this reason, Jesus is pre-eminent. While this verse is covered in greater detail here, a brief explanation is warranted. The word image in the Greek is eikôn, and it means image, i.e., literally a statue, or figuratively, a representation.[2] Thus, Jesus is not God, rather he is the image of God. As God’s agent (Christ or Messiah) he imaged or represented God to the world by speaking only God’s words,[3] performing only God’s acts,[4] and submitting to God’s will instead of his own. Bearing the image of someone does not mean you are that person. For example, Paul wrote that believers have been predestined to be conformed to the image (eikôn) of God’s Son.[5] Surely, we would all agree that bearing Christ’s image doesn’t mean we are Christ. Therefore, just as we are to emulate Jesus in all that we are and do, in like manner, Jesus imaged or emulated who God is by the life he led.

​

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[APAK]

Firstborn of all Creation​

Justin Martyr

Paul emphasizes Jesus’ supremacy by stating that he is the firstborn:

Colossians 1:15 (NASB) He [Jesus] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. (emphasis added)

What does it mean to be the firstborn of all creation? Some of the early Church Fathers, such as Justin Martyr[6] (2nd century) and Arius (4th century), believed that God created Jesus first, and then either created the world through Jesus. Alternatively, some believed that God created Jesus, and then the “firstborn” created the world directly. But is this what Paul meant by the phrase? Thankfully, Paul offers clarity in verse 18:

Colossians 1:18 (NASB) He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. (emphasis added)

When Paul uses the phrase “firstborn,” he is referring to the fact that Jesus was the first man raised from the dead and given immortality. For example, he uses a similar phrase in his letter to the Corinthians:

1 Corinthians 15:20 (NASB) But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.[7] (emphasis added)

Paul is emphasizing that Jesus is the firstborn or the first fruits of this new, immortal creation. Paul is not referring to the Genesis creation, but to the coming new creation, that is, the kingdom of God.

Prepositions: Small but mighty words!​

What role did the firstborn from the dead play in the new creation? To find out, we’ll need to examine two prepositions. Typically prepositions are thought to be minor, insignificant words, but as we’ll discover, they can change the meaning of a passage:

Colossians 1:16 (NASB) For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. (emphasis added)

The word by in the Greek is en. It is a preposition that is most often translated in, on, among, but also as with or by. The word through in Greek is dia and it means through, on account of, because of. The word Him in the Greek is auto, and it is used for second and third person pronouns such as he, she, they, them, etc.

To translate the phrase en auto as “by Him all things were created” gives the impression that Jesus is the Creator seen in Genesis 1. But this would contradict the rest of Scripture and Paul’s theology in particular, which, as we have already seen, states that God the Father is Creator. We know that it is reasonable to translate en as “in” because translators did just that in verse 16 when they rendered en to read in the heavens and not by the heavens. Furthermore, mainstream translations such as the New American Standard Bible, the Amplified Bible and the English Standard Version all note in their translations that by Him (en auto) can also be translated as in Him. Moreover, the New International Version, the Orthodox Jewish Bible, Young’s Literal Bible, and several others[8] actually translate the phrase to say just that: “For in Him all things were created” thus, removing the impression that Jesus was the Creator in Genesis.

Biblical scholars attest that en auto here is better translated in him all things were created. For example, The Expositors Greek Testament states that en auto here “does not mean by him.”[9] A Grammar of New Testament Greek offers, “We must render en ‘because of'” in lieu of by Him. In other words, because of Him, all things were created.[10] Moreover, Sir Anthony Buzzard in his translation explains his take on the matter:

I take en here as causal, i.e. because of him, for his sake, with him in view, with him in intention [all things were created].[11] (emphasis added)

Professor and author, James Dunn agrees that the phrase all things were created means created with Jesus “in intention,”[12] which is to say with him in mind. Thus, according to these scholars and Bible translators, Colossians 1:16 is better translated as:

• • because of Him all things were created
  • all things were created with Jesus in mind (or in view)
  • all things were created…with Jesus in intention
  • all things were created for Jesus’ sake

Why would some translators choose to translate this verse as “by Him” all things were created? It’s possible because it gives the English reader the impression that Jesus is the Creator, thus adding weight to the belief that Jesus pre-existed as God.

Similar to the way that en auto is better rendered because of Jesus or with Jesus in mind, the last phrase of verse 16, “all things have been created through Him (dia auto), can also be translated as “all things have been created on account of or because of him.” As mentioned earlier, the word through here in the Greek is dia, and it can be translated as through, on account of, because of.[13] Thus, another way to render Colossians 1:16 that is more in keeping with various Bible translations and scholars is as follows:

Colossians 1:16 [Because of Jesus, on account of Jesus, or with Jesus in mind] all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created [on account of Him or because of Him] and for Him.

As we continue with our examination, we’ll see that the context confirms this is the more appropriate translation. Furthermore, it better fits with Paul’s theology and the rest of Scripture which reveals that God the Father alone created the world.[14]

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[APAK]

Encircling​

We gain additional insight into Paul’s meaning of the passage under review when we understand that he employs a literary device known as encircling, or what the Greeks called epanadiplosis.[15] The phrases “all things were created” and “all things have been created” serve to encircle the words or phrases in between. Noted theologian

E.W. Bullinger, in his book, Figures of Speech Used in the Bible, explains it this way:

Whenever this figure [encircling] is used, it marks what is said as being completed in one complete circle…giving completeness of the statement that is made.[16]

It may help to think of Paul’s encircling phrases as bookends that mark the beginning and the end of what is being expressed. They serve to emphasize what Paul is including in the category he’s labeled as all things:

Colossians 1:16 (NASB) For by Him (on account of Him) all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him [on account of Him or because of Him] and for Him.

​

What has Paul designated as all things? ​

According to Paul, all things is described as: thrones, dominions, rulers, authorities, whether in heaven or on earth, visible or invisible. Notice there is no mention of any element of the Genesis creation. Paul does not speak of the sun, moon, or stars. Nor does he mention plant life, animals or humans. Thus, Paul is not referring to the creation of this world. Rather, the all things Paul enumerates have to do with the governance of the coming kingdom. You’ll recall that Paul’s purpose in this passage, according to the context, is to demonstrate Jesus’ pre-eminence in the kingdom.[17]

Some claim Paul’s use of the word all here in verse 16 proves the Genesis Creation is what he had in mind. However, the word all can be used in a limited sense. For example, in Colossians 1:5-6 Paul writes that the gospel which has come to the Colossians just as it has in all the world, is constantly bearing fruit and increasing. But had the gospel really gone into all the world? Had it been preached in America? Australia? Antarctica? No, of course, not. The word all here is used in a limited sense to mean all of the Roman empire. Thus, in verse 16, all things is limited to those things included in Paul’s list.

Thrones, Dominions, Rulers and Authorities​

What exactly is Paul referring to when he speaks of the governance of the coming kingdom in terms of thrones, dominions, rulers, and authorities? The vast majority of commentaries say it’s impossible to know exactly what Paul had in mind here and how these terms might differ from one another. What we do know, however, is that similar language is used in the Bible to describe both earthly and angelic or celestial governance.[18] Scholars agree that these terms seem to indicate some kind of hierarchy, just as we have local, state, and federal levels of authority. Regardless of the particulars of these levels of government in the future kingdom, Paul’s point is that Christ is above all levels of government, both human and angelic.

Jesus is before all things​

In verse 17, we see another phrase which some point to as proof that Jesus is the God of Creation:

Colossians 1:17-18 (NASB) He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

What does it mean that Jesus is before all things? Some see this as a reference to a heavenly pre-existence, but we must remember, “all things” in this context refers to the coming kingdom and Jesus’ pre-eminence in that kingdom. Furthermore, the word before in the Greek is pro and it can mean before in time, place or position, and rank. Each of these definitions can be applied to the text without including the notion of a literal pre-existence. For example, as king, Jesus is chronologically the first one “born” into the immortal kingdom. In addition, Jesus is before or positionally in front of those whom He leads. With regard to rank, Jesus is superior to all since he is seated at the right hand of God and has been granted the highest level of authority in the kingdom.[19]

Why is Jesus pre-eminent in the kingdom?​

We must pause a moment and ask, Why is Jesus pre-eminent? Is it because he is God and, as such, inherently ranks above all? Not according to Scripture. Jesus occupies the highest position because God exalted him to a place of power and authority:

Ephesians 1:19-21 (NASB) and what is the surpassing greatness of His [God’s] power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His [God’s] might 20 which He brought about in Christ, when He [God] raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. (emphasis added)

Paul’s teaching in Ephesians parallels that of his teaching in Colossians and Philippians,[20] which states that Jesus’ position or rank was delegated to Him by God the Father. The apostle Peter also speaks of this:

1 Peter 3:22 (NASB) [Jesus Christ], who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him. (emphasis added)

After God raised Jesus from the dead, He made him superior to all governing authorities. In other words, before this time, they weren’t subjected to him. If Jesus is God, this makes absolutely no sense. But if he is the exalted human agent, it makes perfect sense,[21] and it is in keeping with Scripture which says that God gave Jesus authority to rule:

Matthew 11:27 (NASB) “All things have been handed over to Me by My Father...” (emphasis added)
Matthew 28:18 (NASB) And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. (emphasis added)
John 3:35 (NASB) “The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand. (emphasis added)

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[APAK]

Jesus holds all things together ​

But what about the fact that Jesus is said to hold all things together? Doesn’t this indicate he is deity?

Colossians 1:17 (NASB) He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. (emphasis added)

Some believers reason that only God could hold the universe together, therefore, Jesus must be God. Bestselling Christian author, Max Lucado, who believes Jesus is God, wrote about how he imagined Jesus and the universe related to one another when Jesus was an infant:

Angels watched as Mary changed God’s diaper. The universe watched with wonder as The Almighty learned to walk.”[22]

Of course, this creates quite the conundrum. First, Jesus is never referred to as “the Almighty” in Scripture.[23] Second, if Jesus is said to be the one who holds the universe together, how did he manage to accomplish this when he was developmentally unable to do the simplest of tasks such as walking? How can you hold all things together if you need someone to change your diaper? Surely, there is a more reasonable explanation.

What are the “all things” that Jesus holds together?​

Again, according to the context, all things refers to the governance of the coming kingdom, not the universe or Creation. Jesus holds the kingdom together because God has given him the power and the authority to do so. That is to say, the coming kingdom coalesces with the exalted Jesus as its head.

Not only is the governance of the kingdom under Jesus’ delegated authority, so is the Church:

Colossians 1:18 (NASB) He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. (emphasis added)

By virtue of his death and resurrection, Jesus is not only pre-eminent in the coming kingdom, he is also the head of the Church and the first to be raised to immortality. Thus, he will come to have first place in everything both on earth and in heaven.

Conclusion​

God created the structure of the kingdom, its governance and hierarchy, with the king in mind. Paul was not teaching the church in Colossae that Jesus is God or that he is the Creator or even the Co-Creator. Rather, Paul was emphasizing that Jesus is the one chosen by God to rule and reign in the coming/ongoing/maturing kingdom, having been exalted to God’s right hand, he now occupies first place in everything.

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[1] God has given Jesus the kingdom, appointing him as ruler under His authority: Daniel 7:13-14; Matthew 21:33-40; 28:18; 1 Corinthians 15:23-28; Ephesians 1:19-23; Philippians 2:9-11.

[2] NASB Greek-Hebrew Dictionary

[3] John 7:16-17; 8:28; 12:49; 14:10, 24.

[4] Acts 2:22; 10:38; John 3:2; 5:19; 14:10; 17:4, etc.

[5] Romans 8:29; 2 Corinthians 3:18; Philippians 3:21, etc.

[6] Justin Martyr is technically considered one of the Apostolic Fathers, a term that refers to someone who lived in the late first or second centuries and who is thought to have known one of the twelve apostles or was strongly influenced by them. They do not carry the same weight or authority as the twelve apostles.

[7] The term “asleep” is used in Scripture as a euphemism for death.

[8] Berean Study Bible, Berean Literal Bible, ASV, Douay-Rheims, ERV, Weymouth, Wycliffe, etc.

[9] The Expositor’s Greek Testament, Vol. 3, W. Robertson Nicoll, ed., (London: Hodder and Stoughton, 1903), p. 504.

[10] A Grammar of New Testament Greek: Syntax, Vol. 3, Nigel Turner, (T & T Clark, 1963), p. 253.

[11] Sir Anthony Buzzard, The One God, the Father, One Man Messiah Translation, (McDonough, GA: Restoration Fellowship, 2014), p. 497.

[12] James D.G. Dunn, Christology in the Making: A New Testament Inquiry into the Origins of the Doctrine of the Incarnation, (Grand Rapids: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1989) p. 190.

[13] Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance, #1223 dia

[14] Isaiah 44:24.

[15] BiblicalUnitarian.com, Colossians 1:15-20, accessed 10-20-19. https://www.biblicalunitarian.com

[16] E.W. Bullinger, Figures of Speech Used in the Bible, (1898), p. 245.

[17] Colossians 1:13ff.

[18] Earthly: Luke 12:11, 20:20; 1 Corinthians 15:24; Titus 3:1. Heavenly: Romans 8:38; 1 Peter 3:22; Ephesians 3:10, 6:12.

[19] 1 Corinthians 15:23-28.

[20] Philippians 2:5-11.

[21] Hebrews 2:9; Acts 2:26; Colossians 2:15; Philippians 2:5-11.

[22] Max Lucado, Just a Moment, accessed 10-18-19,

"Just a Moment" - Max Lucado

It all happened in a moment, a most remarkable moment. As moments go, that one appeared no different than any other. If you could somehow pick it up off

maxlucado.com

[23] “Almighty” appears 58 times in the Bible as a reference to God. Revelation 21:22 distinguishes between God, who is the Almighty and Jesus, who is the Lamb. Despite some translations’ use of “red letters,” Revelation 1:8 is not a reference to Jesus because only God is called “the Lord God” or “the Lord God Almighty” in each of the 134 times it appears in Scripture.

 

[Matthias]

All of us must work out our OWN salvation with fear and trembling and my boast is in Christ Jesus and His finished work on the cross, death and resurrection.

Who is going to pass the test is not for you to decide @Matthias.

J.

God has appointed a man to make that decision. I’m not that man; Jesus of Nazareth - also a Jewish monotheist - is. His monotheism is the biblical monotheism. It will pass the test, even if many Jewish monotheists don’t.

You must have missed my earlier comment to you that it is the Messiah who will decide. Otherwise, I don’t know how to account for this post of yours to me.

 

[Johann]

[23] “Almighty” appears 58 times in the Bible as a reference to God. Revelation 21:22 distinguishes between God, who is the Almighty and Jesus, who is the Lamb. Despite some translations’ use of “red letters,” Revelation 1:8 is not a reference to Jesus because only God is called “the Lord God” or “the Lord God Almighty” in each of the 134 times it appears in Scripture.

I can't respond to all your post and references but you are in error-no offense-and it is not "par" but pas or panta.


Granville Sharp's rule states:
When two singular personal nouns are connected by the Greek conjunction καί (and), and the first noun has the article while the second does not, both nouns refer to the same person. This principle supports several key passages where Jesus is identified as God.

Key examples:
Titus 2:13
“Looking for the blessed hope and the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ” (τοῦ μεγάλου θεοῦ καὶ σωτῆρος ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ).

According to Sharp’s rule, both “God” (θεοῦ) and “Savior” (σωτῆρος) refer to Jesus.
2 Peter 1:1
“To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours.”

Again, “God” (θεοῦ) and “Savior” (σωτῆρος) are connected by the article and conjunction, explicitly affirming Jesus’ deity.
II. Jesus as “God” in the Pauline Epistles

Romans 9:5
“...from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.” (ὁ ὢν ἐπὶ πάντων θεὸς εὐλογητὸς εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας. Ἀμήν.)

The syntax identifies Christ as “God over all” (ὁ ὢν is a present participle meaning "who is," pointing to the Messiah’s divine nature).

Philippians 2:6-11

Verse 6: “Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage.” (ἐν μορφῇ θεοῦ ὑπάρχων).

μορφῇ θεοῦ (morphē theou, “form of God”) shows that Christ shares the very nature of God.

Verse 10: “At the name of Jesus, every knee should bow.”

This is a direct reference to Isaiah 45:23, where God declares that every knee will bow to Him, explicitly applying Yahweh’s prerogative to Jesus.

Colossians 1:15-20

Verse 15: “The Son is the image of the invisible God.” (εἰκὼν τοῦ θεοῦ τοῦ ἀοράτου).

εἰκὼν (eikōn, “image”) refers to Jesus’ perfect representation of God’s essence.

Verse 19: “For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him.” (πᾶν τὸ πλήρωμα).

Colossians 2:9
“For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form.” (ἐν αὐτῷ κατοικεῖ πᾶν τὸ πλήρωμα τῆς θεότητος σωματικῶς.)

θεότητος (theotētos) refers to the divine essence, affirming that Jesus possesses all attributes of God in bodily form.

1 Corinthians 8:6
“Yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came... and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.”

Paul distinguishes but does not divide the roles of God the Father and the Lord Jesus. Jesus is the mediator of creation (δι’ οὗ τὰ πάντα), a role that only God has in Jewish theology.

1 Timothy 3:16 (Textus Receptus)
“God was manifest in the flesh.” (Θεὸς ἐφανερώθη ἐν σαρκί).

This directly states the incarnation of God in Christ, identifying Jesus as fully divine.

III. Revelation and the Title “Almighty”
Revelation 1:8
“I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

While the text initially appears to reference God the Father, the same titles (Alpha and Omega, First and Last) are later applied directly to Jesus:

Revelation 22:13: “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.”

Revelation 1:17-18: “I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive forever and ever!”

Clearly, Jesus speaks in Revelation 1:17-18, and the application of divine titles confirms His deity.

Jesus as the Lamb and Almighty
Your claim that Revelation distinguishes between God Almighty and the Lamb does not negate Jesus’ deity but shows His unique role within the Godhead:

Revelation 5:13: “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, forever and ever!”
Worship given to both God and the Lamb shows their shared divine status, which would be blasphemy if Christ were not divine (cf. Isaiah 42:8).

IV. Scriptural References Where Jesus is Directly Called “God”
John 20:28
“Thomas answered him, ‘My Lord and my God!’” (Ὁ Κύριός μου καὶ ὁ Θεός μου).

Isaiah 9:6 (Messianic Prophecy)
“For unto us a child is born... and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God.” (אֵל גִּבּוֹר).

Hebrews 1:8
“But of the Son he says, ‘Your throne, O God, is forever and ever.’” (Ὁ θρόνος σου ὁ Θεός).


The New Testament, especially the Pauline epistles, affirms Jesus’ deity explicitly and consistently.

Claims that deny this, such as restricting "Almighty" solely to the Father, misunderstand the unity of the Godhead and the full scope of Christ's identity as both Creator and Redeemer. Through the Granville Sharp rule, context, and clear biblical evidence, Jesus is rightly identified as God, coequal and coeternal with the Father.

03.23 AM here in South Africa @APAK and more than willing to engage you.

J.

 

[Johann]

God has appointed a man to make that decision. I’m not that man; Jesus of Nazareth - also a Jewish monotheist - is. His monotheism is the biblical monotheism. It will pass the test, even if many Jewish monotheists don’t.

You must have missed my earlier comment to you that it is the Messiah who will decide. Otherwise, I don’t know how to account for this post of yours to me.

I'm passionate about Messiah-so don't take it personally.

J.

 

[Matthias]

I'm passionate about Messiah-so don't take it personally.

J.

I don’t take your passion personally. You should be passionate. I’d be suspicious if you weren’t. I’ve never doubted your sincerity.

The Messiah I’m passionate about is the one who is a fellow Jewish monotheist. The only God he worships is the only God I worship. Just as I don’t take your passion personally, you shouldn’t take my passion personally.

You contend for your deity and your faith. I contend for my deity and my faith. That’s as it should be.

 

[Johann]

I don’t take your passion personally. You should be passionate. I’d be suspicious if you weren’t. I’ve never doubted your sincerity.

The Messiah I’m passionate about is the one who is a fellow Jewish monotheist. The only God he worships is the only God I worship. Just as I don’t take your passion personally, you shouldn’t take my passion personally.

Fair enough-are we still brothers in Messiah? Sealed with the Holy Spirit?

J.

 

[Matthias]

Fair enough-are we still brothers in Messiah? Sealed with the Holy Spirit?

J.

It’s not the same deity and it’s not the same faith. In what sense are we brothers?

My faith is branded heretical by yours. A visual representation of the relationship between Jewish monotheism and trinitarianism in the church might help.

 

[Johann]

It’s not the same deity and it’s not the same faith. In what sense are we brothers?

Right-then we are not brothers IN Christ, I will look to others for edification and encouragement and hopefully encourage them to keep the faith.

At this point in my life I don't need impediments as I'm running this race.

J.

 

[Matthias]

Right-then we are not brothers IN Christ, I will look to others for edification and encouragement and hopefully encourage them to keep the faith.

At this point in my life I don't need impediments as I'm running this race.

J.

I didn’t make the decision for you. You made the decision for yourself. That, too, is the way it should be.

 

[Johann]

I didn’t make the decision for you. You made the decision for yourself. That, too, is the way it should be.

You helped me to decide and just learned a valuable lesson.

Elohim yevarech otcha, achi, v’yiten Adonai HaMashiach Yeshua le’hanchot otcha b’derech ha-monote’ut ha-Yehudit.

J.