God begets God?

[Johann]

Despite your bold assertion, I believe the New Testament. There is no God besides the Messiah’s.

So do I-but the Deity of Messiah is under attack.
Act_17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Rom_1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Col_2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Theos is used in the N.T. of the Father, as the revealed God (see Joh_1:1. Act_17:24, &c.)
2. It is used of the Son (Mat_1:23. Joh_1:1; Joh_20:28, &c. Rom_9:5. 2Pe_1:1. 1Jn_5:20). Cp. Col_2:9 and 2Pe_1:3; 2Pe_1:4.
3. It is used of the Holy Spirit (Act_5:3-4, compared with v . 4).
4. It is used generically, as in Joh_10:34. Act_12:22. 2Co_4:4. Php_3:19, &c.
5. It is used of false gods, as in Act_7:43, &c.; and is printed "god" as in the O.T.

ii. Cognate with Theos , there are three other words to be noted :
1. Theotes , rendered "Deity", and used of Christ. Occurs only in Col_2:9, and has relation to the Godhead personally ; while
2. Theiotes , rendered "Deity" also, is Deity in the abstract . Occurs only in Rom_1:20.
3. Theios , rendered "Divine", and is used of Christ. Occurs only in 2Pe_1:3; 2Pe_1:4; and, with the Article, in Act_17:29, where it is rendered "Godhead". Gr. = that which [is] Divine.


II. I AM.
Used by Christ of Himself, in Joh_8:58. See note on Exo_3:14.
Bullinger.

J.

 

[Johann]

That’s right. Joseph is not Jesus’ biological father.

God didn’t beget himself. God supernaturally beget Jesus, just as the birth narratives plainly inform us.

Do you believe that Jewish monotheists murdered God?

So how can a "concept or a plan" in the mind of YHWH be supernaturally begetted?

WHEN the D'var Hashem was WITH Hashem?

J.

 

[Behold]

Just seeing your post after I shared the same scripture reference. I guess I should dead all the posts. lol

Great post, as always! Bless you!

I also shared it in Post #50.

Its today's most popular verse, on this Thread.

 

[Johann]

I do believe in Messiah’s preexistence.

Are you sure that’s the only problem you have with me? I haven’t forgotten that you told me that you don’t believe what I believe is a salvation issue. But on the other hand, neither have I forgotten that you said to me that a person who believes what I believe does not believe the New Testament.

My position is that not believing the New Testament is a salvation issue.

 

[Johann]

I also shared it in Post #50.

Its today's most popular verse, on this Thread.

Keep up the good work @Behold.

Shalom achi.

J.

 

[Matthias]

I know where you are going, and all things created by "it"--and I'm very serious of meeting you where you are @Matthias.

Neuter in the New Testament Context (John 1:1-3):

In John 1:1-3, the term λόγος (logos), often translated as "Word," is grammatically neuter.

The neuter gender of λόγος is significant because, in Greek, neuter nouns often refer to things that are more abstract or conceptual. However, in the context of the prologue of John, even though λόγος is neuter, it is personified, meaning it refers to a divine, personal entity-specifically, Jesus Christ, as shown in John 1:14 (“The Word became flesh”).

Greek: Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος – "In the beginning was the Word"

Here, λόγος (Word) is neuter in gender, but it is treated as a personal subject throughout the passage. Even though Greek grammar uses the neuter form, theologically, λόγος is understood to refer to a person (the second person of the Trinity, Christ), who is later revealed in verse 14 as "the Word became flesh and dwelt among us."

Adjectives:

Adjectives in Greek must agree in gender, number, and case with the noun they modify. A neuter adjective will match a neuter noun.
Example: μέγα λόγος (mega logos) would mean "great word," with μέγα being the neuter form of "great," agreeing with λόγος (which, in this case, would be understood as neuter).

The neuter gender in Greek does not imply that the noun or concept is without personality or existence, but rather is a grammatical categorization. In the case of λόγος in John 1:1-3, the neuter gender does not detract from the theological significance of the "Word" being a person, as later confirmed in verse 14.

The Greek language uses the neuter here, but the passage conveys a personal, active being-the preexistent Christ.

J.

The Messiah’s God is a person, the Father. The language is pointing to the action of that person. John, himself a Jewish monotheist, isn’t trying to persuade his audience that two persons are God and that two persons created the heavens and the earth and all that is in them. John in the prologue is pointing his readers back to the Genesis creation, reminding his audience that God, his God and the Messiah’s God, the God who alone, by himself, brought the old creation into existence, is bringing the new creation into existence. The new creation starts in the womb of the virgin. The Messiah is the focal point of the plan that has existed even before the Genesis creation.

Who is the Messiah? Not, who is God? John and all of the other apostles know who God is. What they found out, and what they try to persuade others to believe, Jesus of Nazareth is the human person who is the Messiah, the Son of God.

Everything ties together in the plan and purpose of the Messiah’s God. The only alternative offered in scripture is idolatry, and that roundly condemned.

“Blessed be the God and Father of our lord Jesus Messiah” - now you’ve got my attention. Now we’re talking about the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David, Jesus, the apostles.

”Blessed be the three persons who are God” - now you’ve lost my attention. We’re no longer thinking and talking like Jesus and the apostles. Now we’re thinking like Origen, Gregory of Nyssa, etc.

Always keep in the back of your mind that I’ve been in your shoes. You’ve found, and are persuaded by, what I once believed but have since rejected -> the well-intentioned but misguided thought of pagans steeped in Greek philosophy who rejected the Jewish dogma of the Messiah. They wanted a non-Jewish Jesus and gradually got what they were looking for. What happened to the Jewish monotheists in the church? They were pushed out.

Jewish monotheism and trinitarianism are irreconcilable theologies. It’s one or the other, not both.

Moving away from Jewish monotheism is moving away from primitive Christianity. Moving away from Jewish monotheism / primitive Christianity was allowed by God and by the Messiah. It is a time of trouble in the church; a time of testing. Kicking Jewish monotheism / Jewish monotheists out of the church, labelling it heresy and them heretics, isn’t going to end well.

Destroying the Jewish dogma isn’t the work of God in Messiah. If it isn’t, then whose work is it?

That’s what I’ve learned. That’s what I’ve come to believe. That’s what I’ve shared. That’s what I’ve suffered for, and will until I draw my final breath - which might (or might not) one day come at the hands of those who hold your theology or at the hands of unbelievers who hold my theology; history repeating itself.

 

[Matthias]

So do I-but the Deity of Messiah is under attack.

The deity of Messiah is his God and Father acting in him.

Act_17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Rom_1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Col_2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Theos is used in the N.T. of the Father, as the revealed God (see Joh_1:1. Act_17:24, &c.)
2. It is used of the Son (Mat_1:23. Joh_1:1; Joh_20:28, &c. Rom_9:5. 2Pe_1:1. 1Jn_5:20). Cp. Col_2:9 and 2Pe_1:3; 2Pe_1:4.
3. It is used of the Holy Spirit (Act_5:3-4, compared with v . 4).
4. It is used generically, as in Joh_10:34. Act_12:22. 2Co_4:4. Php_3:19, &c.
5. It is used of false gods, as in Act_7:43, &c.; and is printed "god" as in the O.T.

ii. Cognate with Theos , there are three other words to be noted :
1. Theotes , rendered "Deity", and used of Christ. Occurs only in Col_2:9, and has relation to the Godhead personally ; while
2. Theiotes , rendered "Deity" also, is Deity in the abstract . Occurs only in Rom_1:20.
3. Theios , rendered "Divine", and is used of Christ. Occurs only in 2Pe_1:3; 2Pe_1:4; and, with the Article, in Act_17:29, where it is rendered "Godhead". Gr. = that which [is] Divine.


II. I AM.
Used by Christ of Himself, in Joh_8:58. See note on Exo_3:14.
Bullinger.

J.

 

[Matthias]

Keep up the good work @Behold.

Shalom achi.

J.

Do you know that he‘s a trinitarian who rejects historical orthodox trinitarianism? The catholics haven’t explained the Trinity correctly? The Church Councils botched it? His explanation, not theirs, is the true explanation / teaching? Good work, is it?

As long as you know, carry on.

 

[Behold]

”Blessed be the three persons who are God” - now you’ve lost my attention. We’re no longer thinking and talking like Jesus and the apostles. Now we’re thinking like Origen, Gregory of Nyssa, etc.

If we only believe that God is Father, Jesus is Son, and there is nothing else..... but the Holy Spirit..

Then we need to take this verse...>>>"let US... create man... in OUR Image".. and change it to.....>>"Let Me Create Man by myself"., because God was talking to Himself because "God is A Spirit".

1.) But that doesn't fit many other verses that esteem Jesus as : "God manifested in the Flesh".

2.) It doesn't fit the Pharisees who wanted to Kill Jesus because He said "before Abraham was born I AM"..., and "I AM"" is the answer that God gave to Moses when Moses asked God.. "what is Your Name".. and Jesus claimed it for Himself and the Pharisees wanted to Kill Jesus for that eternal proclamation...

3.) It wont fit Thomas saying to the resurrected Jesus..."my Lord and my GOD".. and Jesus never corrected him.

4.) It wont fit that "God raised Jesus from the Dead" and Jesus saying.. "and i have the power to take (my life) up again", after im crucified and die.

5.) It wont fit Genesis where "God breathed the Holy Spirit" into Adam, and in John 20:22 = "Jesus Breathed the Holy Spirit into the 11 Apostles" and later sent the Holy Spirit down to this earth, in Acts 2. (Only God can give the Holy Spirit).. and they did.

And this can just continue.......as the Bible is filled with these simple proofs regarding the "Deity of Christ".

But what the Bible does not try to prove is that you have to believe in the Deity of Christ to become a Christian., as that is not required for Salvation..... as only this is required... John 14:6

 

[Johann]

Who is the Messiah? Not, who is God? John and all of the other apostles know who God is. What they found out, and what they try to persuade others to believe, Jesus of Nazareth is the human person who is the Messiah, the Son of God.

I have both Scripture and ancient Jewish writings that support my point-no offense intended. Also, John’s Gospel presents a profoundly high Christological view of the Messiah.

Everything ties together in the plan and purpose of the Messiah’s God. The only alternative offered in scripture is idolatry, and that roundly condemned.

No idolatry from Christians.

”Blessed be the three persons who are God” - now you’ve lost my attention. We’re no longer thinking and talking like Jesus and the apostles. Now we’re thinking like Origen, Gregory of Nyssa, etc.

Origin and Gregory is not my primary source-but Jewish sources.

Moving away from Jewish monotheism is moving away from primitive Christianity. Moving away from Jewish monotheism / primitive Christianity was allowed by God and by the Messiah. It is a time of trouble in the church; a time of testing. Kicking Jewish monotheism / Jewish monotheists out of the church, labelling it heresy and them heretics, isn’t going to end well.

And Jewish monotheism is labelling the ekklesia as heretics.

Destroying the Jewish dogma isn’t the work of God in Messiah. If it isn’t, then whose work is it?

So far you are philosophizing, not really "working with the Scriptures per se"

That’s what I’ve learned. That’s what I’ve come to believe. That’s what I’ve shared. That’s what I’ve suffered for and will until I draw my final breath - which might (or might not) one day come at the hands of those who hold your theology or at the hands of unbelievers who hold my theology; history repeating itself.

My "theology" is rooted in my Bible-Look at the Tovia Singers twisting and perverting the Scriptures.

Shalom.

J.

 

[Matthias]

If we only believe that God is Father, Jesus is Son, and there is nothing else..... but the Holy Spirit..

Then we need to take this verse...>>>"let US... create man... in OUR Image".. and change it to.....>>"Let Me Create Man by myself"., because God was talking to Himself because "God is A Spirit".

1.) But that doesn't fit many other verses that esteem Jesus as : "God manifested in the Flesh".

2.) It doesn't fit the Pharisees who wanted to Kill Jesus because He said "before Abraham was born I AM"..., and "I AM"" is the answer that God gave to Moses when Moses asked God.. "what is Your Name".. and Jesus claimed it for Himself and the Pharisees wanted to Kill Jesus for that eternal proclamation...

3.) It wont fit Thomas saying to the resurrected Jesus..."my Lord and my GOD".. and Jesus never corrected him.

4.) It wont fit that "God raised Jesus from the Dead" and Jesus saying.. "and i have the power to take (my life) up again", after im crucified.

5.) It wont fit Genesis where "God breathed the Holy Spirit" into Adam, and "Jesus Breathed the Holy Spirit into the 11 Apostle" and later sent the Holy Spirit down to this earth, in Acts 2.

And this can just continue.......as the Bible is filled with these simple proofs regarding the "Deity of Christ".

But what the Bible does not try to prove is that you have to believe in the Deity of Christ to become a Christian., as that is not required for Salvation..... as only this is required... John 14:6

Jesus is a Jewish monotheist. Jewish monotheism fits all of scripture.

***

Have you spoken with @Johann about your superior explanation of / teaching on the Trinity?

 

[Matthias]

I have both Scripture and ancient Jewish writings that support my point-no offense intended. Also, John’s Gospel presents a profoundly high Christological view of the Messiah.

No idolatry from Christians.

Origin and Gregory is not my primary source-but Jewish sources.

And Jewish monotheism is labelling the ekklesia as heretics.

So far you are philosophizing, not really "working with the Scriptures per se"

My "theology" is rooted in my Bible-Look at the Tovia Singers twisting and perverting the Scriptures.

Shalom.

J.

Tovia Singer is a Jewish monotheist who does not believe Jesus is the Messiah. He’s no friend of mine.

Christian apostasy has been going on since the 1st century.

 

[Johann]

Do you know that he‘s a trinitarian who rejects historical orthodox trinitarianism? The catholics haven’t explained the Trinity correctly? The Church Councils botched it? His explanation, not theirs, is the true explanation / teaching? Good work, is it?

As long as you know, carry on.

And Jewish monotheists botched it-when last did you listen to the Jewish apologists? Butchering the Scriptures?

J.

 

[Matthias]

And Jewish monotheists botched it …

Unbelieving Jewish monotheists.

… when last did you listen to the Jewish apologists? Butchering the Scriptures?

J.

Yesterday.

If you haven’t sat at the feet of @Behold and listened to his teaching concerning the Trinity, you should.

 

[Johann]

Jesus is a Jewish monotheist. Jewish monotheism fits all of scripture.

***

Have you spoken with @Johann about your superior explanation of / teaching on the Trinity?

No need to tag me @Matthias.

J.

 

[Johann]

Unbelieving Jewish monotheists.



Yesterday.

Good, so do I, listening to all the debates online for years.

J.

 

[TLHKAJ]

Just seeing your post after I shared the same scripture reference. I guess I should read all the posts. lol

Great post, as always! Bless you!

Fixed my typo, too! Lol

This is another scripture that comes to mind, @Johann. If you already posted it, I apologize. lol
I am in town between stops ...lol

Revelation 13:8
[8]And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

[Johann]

Unbelieving Jewish monotheists.



Yesterday.

If you haven’t sat at the feet of @Behold and listened to his teaching concerning the Trinity, you should.

I don't need to stand on my one leg to listen to teaching of others.

J.

 

[TLHKAJ]

I also shared it in Post #50.

Its today's most popular verse, on this Thread.

Bless you ....my apologies. I've not gone through the entire thread yet.

 

[Johann]

Fixed my typo, too! Lol

This is another scripture that comes to mind, @Johann. If you already posted it, I apologize. lol
I am in town between stops ...lol

Revelation 13:8
[8]And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Great verse! Already quoted @TLHKAJ!

Johann.