God begets God?

[Matthias]

I see this proposed from time to time: God begets God. In fact, I saw it proposed on the forum this evening in a forum I’m not able to post in. The analogy used was this:

Human begets human. (Would anyone disagree with that? I don’t.)

Dog begets dog. (Would anyone disagree with that? I don’t.)

God begets God. (I disagree with that. It’s inconceivable in Jewish monotheism.)

Does anyone else besides me see a problem with the analogy? Do others see no problem with the analogy? Let’s discuss it.

 

[RedFan]

I see this proposed from time to time: God begets God. In fact, I saw it proposed on the forum this evening in a forum I’m not able to post in. The analogy used was this:

Human begets human. (Would anyone disagree with that? I don’t.)

Dog begets dog. (Would anyone disagree with that? I don’t.)

God begets God. (I disagree with that. It’s inconceivable in Jewish monotheism.)

Does anyone besides me see a problem with the analogy?

I do. The science of genetics doesn't apply to the Almighty.

 

[David in NJ]

I see this proposed from time to time: God begets God. In fact, I saw it proposed on the forum this evening in a forum I’m not able to post in. The analogy used was this:

Human begets human. (Would anyone disagree with that? I don’t.)

Dog begets dog. (Would anyone disagree with that? I don’t.)

God begets God. (I disagree with that. It’s inconceivable in Jewish monotheism.)

Does anyone else besides me see a problem with the analogy? Do others see no problem with the analogy? Let’s discuss it.

I do. The science of genetics doesn't apply to the Almighty.

God DOES NOT beget anything other then HIMSELF

You are confusing God begetting and God creating

JESUS is God's ONLY begotten Son

only /ōn′lē/

adjective​

1. Alone in kind or class; sole.
   "That's the only pen I have."
2. Having no siblings.
   "an only child."
3. Most suitable of all; superior or excellent.
   "This is the only way to cook a good steak."

Now COMPARE the TRUTH of the ONLY begotten SON of GOD to angels, man, animals, sun, moon, stars etc

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence. - Colossians 1:16-18

 

[Matthias]

God DOES NOT beget anything other then HIMSELF

You are confusing God begetting and God creating

JESUS is God's ONLY begotten Son

only /ōn′lē/

adjective​

1. Alone in kind or class; sole.
   "That's the only pen I have."
2. Having no siblings.
   "an only child."
3. Most suitable of all; superior or excellent.
   "This is the only way to cook a good steak."

Now COMPARE the TRUTH of the ONLY begotten SON of GOD to angels, man, animals, sun, moon, stars etc

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence. - Colossians 1:16-18

Begetting is an act of creating.

When a human begets a human, the human population increases by one human. A human which didn’t previously exist is brought into existence. Wouldn’t you agree with that?

When a dog begets a dog, the canine population increases by one dog. A dog which didn’t previously exist is brought into existence. Wouldn’t you also be able to agree with that?

If God begets God then, by analogy, the God population increases by one God. A God which didn’t previously exist is brought into existence. Instead of one God there are now two Gods. That’s polytheism, not monotheism.

Reproduction analogies aren’t applicable in Jewish monotheism. I don’t see how they are applicable in other forms of monotheism.

 

[David in NJ]

Begetting is an act of creating.

When a human begets a human, the human population increases by one human. A human which didn’t previously exist is brought into existence. Wouldn’t you agree with that?

When a dog begets a dog, the canine population increases by one dog. A dog which didn’t previously didn’t exist is brought into existence. Wouldn’t you also be able to agree with that?

If God begets God then, by analogy, the God population increases by one God. A God which didn’t previously exist is brought into existence. Instead of one God there are now two Gods. That’s polytheism.

Reproduction analogies aren’t applicable in Jewish monotheism. I don’t see how they are applicable in other forms of monotheism.

Begetting is an act of creating.

Only with humans.

The only begotten Son of God is referring to how God came to earth as a man = Isaiah 7:14 and Matthew 1:23

Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.

“Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”

Reproduction analogies aren’t applicable in Jewish monotheism.

Jewish monotheism is a false doctrine and those who hold to it were and are responsible for murdering the Son of God.

Acts 3:15
But you denied the Holy One and the Just, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you, and killed the Prince of life,
whom God raised from the dead, of which we are witnesses.

Acts 7:51-53
“You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you.
Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute?
And they killed those who foretold the coming of the Just One,
of whom you now have become the betrayers and murderers, who have received the law by the direction of angels and have not kept it.”

Don't be stiff-necked like the unbelieving monotheistic Jews

 

[Matthias]

Only with humans.

And dogs. Once we‘re able to agree on that then the analogy with God begetting God doesn’t hold.

The only begotten Son of God is referring to how God came to earth as a man = Isaiah 7:14 and Matthew 1:23

Thanks.

In Jewish monotheism, the only begotten Son of God is how Jesus began to exist in the womb of his mother. Earlier this evening I posted the comment that what we see in Matthew’s Gospel with the birth of Jesus - beginning with his conception, as described in Matthew 1:23 (as well as in Luke 1:35) - is a new Genesis, the beginning of a new creation.

With your concession that your analogy works with humans (and dogs) but is only for humans (and dogs) the point you were attempting to make is abandoned.

In your theology, Jesus doesn’t begin to exist in the womb of his mother.

I seldom come across your analogy in conversations with Christians, and it was never used by any of my trinitarian college professors.

Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.

“Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”


Jewish monotheism is a false doctrine and those who hold to it were and are responsible for murdering the Son of God.

I’ve spoken at some length lately about Gregory of Nyssa. He expressed your assessment of Jewish monotheism in the 4th century, labeling it as heresy, and speaking confidently about the Jewish dogma being destroyed by the Catholic Church and its post-biblical formulation of the doctrine of the Trinity. You should use him to support your position; announce it to everyone within the sound of your voice. Before I retired, even as a Jewish monotheist, I preached it from the pulpit.

But if and when you do, please remember this: Jesus of Nazareth himself is a Jewish monotheist. So, too, are the apostles.

Acts 3:15
But you denied the Holy One and the Just, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you, and killed the Prince of life, whom God raised from the dead, of which we are witnesses.

The Jewish monotheists who did that were Jewish monotheists who did not believe that Jesus of Nazareth is the one promised, raised up and sent from their God. They comprised the majority of Jewish monotheists. A minority of Jewish monotheists did believe that Jesus is the Messiah, raised up and sent from their God and his God.

Acts 7:51-53
“You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you.
Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who foretold the coming of the Just One, of whom you now have become the betrayers and murderers, who have received the law by the direction of angels and have not kept it.”

Don't be stiff-necked like the unbelieving monotheistic Jews

I’m not. I’m a Jewish monotheist who believes that another Jewish monotheist, a fellow Jewish monotheist, is the Messiah, the Son of God.

 

[David in NJ]

And dogs. Once we‘re able to agree on that then the analogy with God begetting God doesn’t hold.



Thanks.

In Jewish monotheism, the only begotten Son of God is how Jesus began to exist in the womb of his mother. Earlier this evening I posted the comment that what we see in Matthew’s Gospel with the birth of Jesus - beginning with his conception, as described in Matthew 1:23 (as well as in Luke 1:35) - is a new Genesis, the beginning of a new creation.

With your concession that your analogy works with humans (and dogs) but is only for humans (and dogs) the point you were attempting to make is abandoned.

In your theology, Jesus doesn’t begin to exist in the womb of his mother.

I seldom come across your analogy in conversations with Christians, and it was never used by any of my trinitarian college professors.



I’ve spoken at some length lately about Gregory of Nyssa. He expressed your assessment of Jewish monotheism in the 4th century, labeling it as heresy, and speaking confidently about the Jewish dogma being destroyed by the Catholic Church and its post-biblical formulation of the doctrine of the Trinity. You should use him to support your position; announce it to everyone within the sound of your voice. Before I retired, even as a Jewish monotheist, I preached it from the pulpit.

But if and when you do, please remember this: Jesus of Nazareth himself is a Jewish monotheist. So, too, are the apostles.



The Jewish monotheists who did that were Jewish monotheists who did not believe that Jesus of Nazareth is the one promised, raised up and sent from their God. They comprised the majority of Jewish monotheists. A minority of Jewish monotheists did believe that Jesus is the Messiah, raised up and sent from their God and his God.



I’m not. I’m a Jewish monotheist who believes that another Jewish monotheist, a fellow Jewish monotheist, is the Messiah, the Son of God.

In your theology, Jesus doesn’t begin to exist in the womb of his mother.

In TRUTH in the Holy Scriptures Says: the body of a man was prepared for the Word that became flesh = John chapter 1 & Heb 10:5

Mary was the chosen vessel for that 'body' to be prepared = Hebrews 10:5

Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:
“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.

The Word that was/is God always existed = from Eternity = "In the Beginning was the Word....the Word was God"

 

[Matthias]

In regard to analogies, I offer the following, written by a trinitarian, for consideration by trinitarians and non-trinitarians.

“Don’t use them. Any of them. Ever.”

"The Trinity is Like 3-in-1 Shampoo". . . And Other Stupid Statements - Credo House Ministries

Alternate title: “Trinitarian Heresy 101” “The doctrine of the Trinity is like an egg: three parts, one thing.” Ever heard that? How about this, “The doctrine of the Trinity is like a three leaf clover: three leaves, one clover.” Or how about THIS, “The doctrine of the Trinity is like water...

credohouse.org

When I was a college student my professors insisted that students must never use analogies for the Trinity. The reason is a simple one -> there is nothing analogous to the Trinity in nature. Every attempt to use an analogy, even if the attempt is sincere, always ends badly.

Trinitarian or non-trinitarian, please don’t use analogies for the Trinity. Trinitarians do it out of ignorance; non-trinitarian either out of ignorance or with intentional malice. They aren’t helpful. Ever.

 

[David in NJ]

In regard to analogies, I offer the following, written by a trinitarian, for consideration by trinitarians and non-trinitarians.

“Don’t use them. Any of them. Ever.”

"The Trinity is Like 3-in-1 Shampoo". . . And Other Stupid Statements - Credo House Ministries

Alternate title: “Trinitarian Heresy 101” “The doctrine of the Trinity is like an egg: three parts, one thing.” Ever heard that? How about this, “The doctrine of the Trinity is like a three leaf clover: three leaves, one clover.” Or how about THIS, “The doctrine of the Trinity is like water...

credohouse.org

When I was a college student my professors insisted that students must never use analogies for the Trinity. The reason is a simple one -> there is nothing analogous to the Trinity in nature. Every attempt to use an analogy, even if the attempt is sincere, always ends badly.

Trinitarian or non-trinitarian, please don’t use analogies for the Trinity. Trinitarians do it out of ignorance; non-trinitarian either out of ignorance or with intentional malice. They aren’t helpful. Ever.

God, Himself, gave to us a very CLEAR allegory of the Triune Elohim in Genesis.

Unbelief will always keep a person in the dark and guessing and or confused.

 

[quietthinker]

I see this proposed from time to time: God begets God. In fact, I saw it proposed on the forum this evening in a forum I’m not able to post in. The analogy used was this:

Human begets human. (Would anyone disagree with that? I don’t.)

Dog begets dog. (Would anyone disagree with that? I don’t.)

God begets God. (I disagree with that. It’s inconceivable in Jewish monotheism.)

Does anyone else besides me see a problem with the analogy? Do others see no problem with the analogy? Let’s discuss it.

How it works is a mystery to me....but so are computers and so is DNA....and so is electricity and so is......
When I hear in Jesus dying words after I have driven in the nails, 'I am especially fond of you' I am brought to my knees with tears.
I do not understand the depth of this fondness but I love it nevertheless and respond in gratitude.

 

[Matthias]

In TRUTH in the Holy Scriptures Says: the body of a man was prepared for the Word that became flesh = John chapter 1 & Heb 10:5

That’s a trinitarian understanding of what the verses - written by Jewish monotheists - mean.

Mary was the chosen vessel for that 'body' to be prepared = Hebrews 10:5

Mary was a Jewish monotheist. It wasn’t just a human body that she miraculously conceived in her womb; it was a human person, a male child, Jesus.

Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:
“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.

Who prepared the body for Jesus?

The Word that was/is God always existed = from Eternity = "In the Beginning was the Word....the Word was God"

Please see the prologue of John’s Gospel in all English translations made directly from Greek (that excludes the Wycliffe translation, which was made from Latin, not Greek) published prior to 1611.

 

[MatthewG]

Hello @Matthias,

Would Hebrews 2:5-18, describe Jesus as having been made? When the Word of God was sent, Jesus was born of the spirit and of flesh and was made lower than the angels. Just curious to know your thoughts on that.

I know the notion of Jesus being made, in general is something not considered in Christodom.

 

[David in NJ]

That’s a trinitarian understanding of what the verses - written by Jewish monotheists - mean.



Mary was a Jewish monotheist. It was just a human body that she miraculously conceived in her womb; it was a human person, a male child, Jesus.



Who prepared the body for Jesus?



Please see the prologue of John’s Gospel in all English translations made directly from Greek (that excludes the Wycliffe translation, which was made from Latin, not Greek) published prior to 1611.

That’s a trinitarian understanding of what the verses

No, that is exactly what God spoke.

written by Jewish monotheists

Wrong again
The Holy Spirt is not a monotheist.

Who prepared the body for Jesus?

the Holy Spirit - Luke 1:35

And the angel answering, said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore also the Holy One being born will be called the Son of God.

Have you ever read the Bible???

 

[Matthias]

God, Himself, gave to us a very CLEAR allegory of the Triune Elohim in Genesis.

Moses was a Jewish monotheist. What allegory are you referring to in Genesis?

Unbelief will always keep a person in the dark and guessing and or confused.

I can agree with that.

You don’t believe in Jewish monotheism. I do. Look at your comment from my perspective.

 

[David in NJ]

Hello @Matthias,

Would Hebrews 2:5-18, describe Jesus as having been made? When the Word of God was sent, Jesus was born of the spirit and of flesh and was made lower than the angels. Just curious to know your thoughts on that.

I know the notion of Jesus being made, in general is something not considered in Christodom.

There does not exist a single scripture that the Word of God was created.

The 'body' for the Word was created inside Mary's womb = Hebrews 10:5 and Luke 1:35

 

[David in NJ]

Moses was a Jewish monotheist. What allegory are you referring to in Genesis?



I can agree with that.

You don’t believe in Jewish monotheism. I do. Look at your comment from my perspective.

i understand monotheism and your comments.

Look at what God has said to you - monotheists murdered the LORD

For this reason the Jews(monotheists) persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath.
But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.”

Therefore the Jews(monotheists) sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath,
but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

If you want to be a monotheist, go ahead, but you are on the wrong side of His-story!!!

 

[Matthias]

How it works is a mystery to me....but so are computers and so is DNA....and so is electricity and so is......
When I hear in Jesus dying words after I have driven in the nails, 'I am especially fond of you' I am brought to my knees with tears.
I do not understand the depth of this fondness but I love it nevertheless and respond in gratitude.

Speaking to you as a Jewish monotheist who believes that Jesus of Nazareth is the promised Messiah, how it works with the miraculous, supernatural, begetting of the Son of God in the womb of the virgin is the same way it worked with God miraculously, supernaturally, bringing the heavens and the earth into existence. Compare the description of creation in Genesis 1 with Luke 1:35.

Trinitarians, binitarians, and even the majority of unitarians will offer you / us a different understanding than the one I have expressed.

 

[Matthias]

i understand monotheism and your comments.

Look at what God has said to you - monotheists murdered the LORD

God has said no such thing to me, nor to anyone. The LORD (the standard English convention for rendering the tetragrammaton -the four Hebrew letters which are the personal name of God) has never been murdered by anyone.

God cannot die / God cannot be murdered.

The human Messiah was executed as a criminal by the government of the Roman Empire. Unbelieving Jewish monotheists - not believing Jewish monotheists! - called for his execution. A human person, the Messiah, the Son of God, Jesus of Nazareth, died on the cross.

For this reason the Jews(monotheists) persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath. 17But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.”

Therefore the Jews(monotheists) sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath,
but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

You believe the accusations made by Jewish monotheists against him. He denied that he was making himself equal with God. His claim is that he is the Son of God. He didn’t make himself equal with God. God, his God and their God, the Father, made Jesus functionally equal with himself.

If you want to be a monotheist, go ahead, but you are on the wrong side of His-story!!!

I am a monotheist. Christianity, which began as a sect of Judaism, is a monotheistic religion.

Those who aren’t monotheists aren’t followers of the Messiah, who himself is a monotheist.

 

[David in NJ]

God has said no such thing to me, nor to anyone. The LORD (the standard English convention for rendering the tetragrammaton -the four Hebrew letters which are the personal name of God) has never been murdered by anyone.

God cannot die / God cannot be murdered.

The human Messiah was executed as a criminal by the government of the Roman Empire. Unbelieving Jewish monotheists - not believing Jewish monotheists! - called for his execution. A human person, the Messiah, the Son of God, Jesus of Nazareth, died on the cross.



You believe the accusations made by Jewish monotheists against him. He denied that he was making himself God. His claim is that he is the Son of God. He didn’t make himself equal with God. God, his God and their God, made Jesus equal with God.



I am a monotheist. Christianity is a monotheistic religion.

Those who aren’t monotheists aren’t followers of the Messiah, who himself is a monotheist.

God has said no such thing to me, nor to anyone.

Yes He has and it is recorded in the Scriptures.

For this reason the Jews(monotheists) persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath. 17But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.”

Therefore the Jews(monotheists) sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath,
but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

Christ called His Father God and also declared that He is God as well for He came from the very Center of God.
And we also have the Holy Spirit which is God also.

God, in His Holy Scriptures, declared His Plurality from the very Beginning in Genesis chapter 1.

Monotheism is the teaching of a singular God whereas the Scriptures teach a Plural God that is Untied as ONE

Elohim is the correct Hebrew word that is translated as 'God'.

In the beginning
בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית (bə·rê·šîṯ)
Preposition-b | Noun - feminine singular
Strong's Hebrew 7225: 1) first, beginning, best, chief 1a) beginning 1b) first 1c) chief 1d) choice part

God
אֱלֹהִ֑ים (’ĕ·lō·hîm)
Noun - masculine plural
Strong's Hebrew 430: 1) (plural) 1a) rulers, judges 1b) divine ones 1c) angels 1d) gods 2) (plural intensive-singular meaning) 2a) god, goddess 2b) godlike one 2c) works or special possessions of God 2d) the (true) God 2e) God

 

[Matthias]

There does not exist a single scripture that the Word of God was created.

To be begotten is to be created. Jesus was begotten by his God.

The 'body' for the Word was created inside Mary's womb = Hebrews 10:5 and Luke 1:35

Jesus is more than a body. There is no human person without a body.

The angel who spoke with Mary tells us precisely why Jesus is called the Son of God.

”The angel answered and said to her, ‘The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; for that reason also the holy Child will be called the Son of God.”