GJohn 1.1 ἦν

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Aunty Jane

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Fair question. I suppose some kind of secondary or "vice" demigod of the type premised by Arius. As a Trinitarian of sorts, I haven't had to spend much time on that issue.
There were to be no other gods but Yahweh….now there are three. It is putting a different god in the place of the Father. There are no other gods but Yahweh and to worship one who is not “Yahweh” is a breach of the first Commandment. (Exodus 20:3) The Jews worshipped one God (Deut 6:4) but the false religions of this world all have multiple gods. Christendom too has a multiple god, but they squeezed three of them into one “head” to deny polytheism. 1+1+1 does not = 1.

Jesus can be “divine” without being an equal “deity” with his own God and Father. (Rev 3:12, 14)
The judges in Israel were sinful humans, but he called them ”theos”….because he divinely authorized them……and Paul called the devil “theos”, proving that it doesn’t have just one meaning.

Christendom cannot let go of this travesty introduced by the devil, and it will take the majority who accept it, down into oblivion with him.…having swallowed this ancient lie for so long that the truth is all but lost, except for the “few” who decide to take a different road…one that brings condemnation and ostracism from the masses….something the devil likes to use and always has. It works so well for him….because no one like to be on the receiving end of rejection….do they? (John 15:18-21)

But whose rejection are they not considering? (Matt 7:21-23)
 
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RedFan

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@RedFan

Here is one problem the T believers cannot solve...

When I saw him I fell down at his feet as though I were dead, but he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid! I am the first and the last, 1:18 and the one who lives! I was dead, but look, now I am alive—forever and ever—and I hold the keys of death and of Hades (grave) Re 1:17–18.

Christ's references to being dead and living (for evermore) make no sense, if he is God
If you don't believe Christ ceased to live and died, then you have no Victory over death
It would mean his death was a false façade and carried no meaningful atonement at all.

Remember it was through his death that the Victory over sin occurred and his Keys to grave and its unlocking could not be given to him if he was fully in death, and fully came out of it.

F2F
This requires belief that the incarnate Son was both God and man. As I see it, while God obviously cannot die, He can -- in at least one of His persona -- "empty" Himself (ἐκένωσεν in Phil. 2:7) of aspects of divinity when becoming incarnate, and take on a physical body that is mortal.

With that preamble, I believe that Christ the man truly died on the cross. And that he was raised from the dead. (That's how Paul put it, "raised" from the dead. By the Father. Christ didn't "raise" Himself. That would have been quite impossible for someone truly dead, as impossible as Lazarus raising himself from the dead or Jairus's daughter raising herself from the dead.)
 
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St. SteVen

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I am the Alpha and Omega ...

> IF Jesus wasn't God, He would not take all that credit above.
That's a good observation.

Revelation 1:7-8 NIV
“Look, he is coming with the clouds,”[a]
and “every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him”;
and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”[b]
So shall it be! Amen.
8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God,
“who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”

[
 

face2face

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This requires belief that the incarnate Son was both God and man. As I see it, while God obviously cannot die, He can -- in at least one of His persona -- "empty" Himself (ἐκένωσεν in Phil. 2:7) of aspects of divinity when becoming incarnate, and take on a physical body that is mortal.

With that preamble, I believe that Christ the man truly died on the cross. And that he was raised from the dead. (That's how Paul put it, "raised" from the dead. By the Father. Christ didn't "raise" Himself. That would have been quite impossible for someone truly dead, as impossible as Lazarus raising himself from the dead or Jairus's daughter raising herself from the dead.)
We have looked at the irreconcilable issues with this view.

Paul's Victory he declares is no victory at all if Jesus did not die to sin once!

15:56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 15:57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ! 15:58 So then, dear brothers and sisters, be firm. Do not be moved! Always be outstanding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord. 1 Co 15:56–58.

What you would need to believe, is death had no sting at all for Christ, AND God had no Victory to speak of, seeing Christ is God and cannot die!

It doesn't work!

See the problem?

Without the total cessation of life these words are meaningless:

“Death has been swallowed up in victory.” 15:55 “Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?” 1 Co 15:54–55.

How can death be swallowed up in Victory if Jesus could not truly die?

See the point?

What does that make of God's Righteousness if Christ did not die?

As I've said it reduces the work of God to a mere puppet show where God is holding the strings. No need for faith and Jesus crying with strong crying and tears to Him who is able to save him becomes meaningless if Christ is God!

F2F
 

face2face

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With that preamble, I believe that Christ the man truly died on the cross. And that he was raised from the dead. (That's how Paul put it, "raised" from the dead. By the Father. Christ didn't "raise" Himself. That would have been quite impossible for someone truly dead, as impossible as Lazarus raising himself from the dead or Jairus's daughter raising herself from the dead.)
Correct...but this view cannot be held if you believe in the T. Death is the opposite to life.

For you will not abandon my soul (life) to Sheol (grave), or let your holy one see corruption (worms). Psalm 16:10 ; Acts 2:27

This makes no sense if one believed life was instantaneous after death.

F2F
 

Aunty Jane

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He would not receive worship. No knee would ever be required to bow to him, he would have required all to bow to God only.
Nonsense. Bowing the knee in obeisance is not worship…it is an act of respect.…something common in Bible times. It’s what Abraham did to the sons of Heth and what the magi did to the child, Jesus. It’s what the angels also rendered to the son of God because they recognize his superior rank.

Aside from scriptures that point to the Great " I Am", who really introduced Himself in Exodus 3:14, we don't even need much scripture to prove our point.
There is no great “I Am”…..Exodus 3:15 has no connection to John 8:58 at all. The meaning of God’s name is “I will be what I will be”….not “I Am”…..that would have been a redundant statement to a people who already knew who Yahweh was….he was about to liberate them from Egypt in miraculous fashion.
”I will be” was a statement of his intentions towards his people….they already knew he existed….but they had never experienced his presence in such a way. He would “be“ whatever he needed to “be“ to accomplish his will in connection with Israel.

If Jesus was given all authority in heaven and on earth, you'd have to be omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscient to handle that job. That is a definition of God. If you are in control, you must be God. Jesus even claimed to have e always been there for the Israelites _ before He was born:
Would you like to read that Scripture again….?

What does Jesus say in Matt 28:18…?
”And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.”

One word gives it away….the word “given”……so who “gave” authority to Jesus, if he was already in possession of “all authority” as the Supreme Deity? How do you give someone what they already have?

Phil 2:9-11, also speaks of Jesus being given a superior position and also a name that is above all names….tell me how that is possible when the Almighty already has a superior position and a name that is above all names? (Psalm 83:18)

This is NOT A DEFINITION OF GOD at all….it is a definition of one who is subject to God…who is a loyal and obedient “servant” of God (Acts 4:27) and one who was to become God’s “High Priest”…..tell me please how God serves himself in those roles?

Christ is the only Mediator “between God and men”….which again is a nonsense…..because the “go-between” cannot be one of the estranged parties. He is the facilitator of communication, thus our prayers are addressed to “our Father” through the name of Jesus Christ.

As God’s logos or spokesman, the pre-human Jesus was always closely related to the activities of God’s people. He didn’t become the logos when he was baptized…he was always the logos from “the beginning” of man’s life outside of paradise.

This one was “in the beginning with God”….so was he beside himself?
Since God had no beginning, your definition of things falls way short. There is more scripture that argues against your position that supports it.
But the minds of the blinded ones will never see it. (2 Cor 4:3-4)
 
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RedFan

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Correct...but this view cannot be held if you believe in the T. Death is the opposite to life.

For you will not abandon my soul (life) to Sheol (grave), or let your holy one see corruption (worms). Psalm 16:10 ; Acts 2:27

This makes no sense if one believed life was instantaneous after death.

F2F
I'm not seeing what you're seeing.
 

face2face

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Once you deny the deity of Christ, anything goes.
Depends on how you deem Deity?
If you mean Christ in the Flesh then yes it must be denied!
However, if you mean God placing the fullness of His Deity in Christ post resurrection then this cannot be denied.

This is what makes this subject confusing - are people talking about the Glorified Christ or the Christ who suffered in the Flesh

F2F
 

Aunty Jane

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That's a good observation.

Revelation 1:7-8 NIV
“Look, he is coming with the clouds,”[a]
and “every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him”;
and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”[b]
So shall it be! Amen.
8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God,
“who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”
OK, so what does this title actually mean in Greek? It is the first and last letters of the Greek alphabet like A and Z are to us.
Rev 1:8 states: “The Lord God says, ‘I am the Alpha and the Omega, the One who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty!’” (The New American Bible)
Clearly, the reference here is to the Most High God, Yahweh. (Jesus is never once referred to as “the Almighty”…he is a “mighty god” (in the Greek sense of the word) but not THE Almighty God of the Bible. Not one Scripture says so.

So exploring this title for a moment, let’s see what other Scripture has to say about it….
While Jesus Christ is referred to in the previous verse as “coming with the clouds,” the words of this and the surrounding verses show that he could not be “the Alpha and the Omega.” Why?

Jesus Christ has a God and even refers to his Father as “my God.” (John 20:17; Rev 3:12)
Can God have a God? Revelation was written long after his return to heaven.

The Revelation was given to Jesus Christ by God, and then it was transmitted to an angel who conveyed it to the apostle John. (Rev 1:1) There is a chain of command to be noted here.…and since the words of Almighty God are quoted in the account, we should see reference to him, as well as to Christ.
They are his words after all….

The first reference to “the Alpha and the Omega” is clearly an example of this.

The next occurrence of the title “the Alpha and the Omega” is found at Rev 21:6. In the following verse, the One who applies this title to himself says: “Anyone conquering will inherit these things, and I shall be his God and he will be my son.”
Since Jesus Christ speaks of himself as a “brother” of these conquerors, it is the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ who is referring to himself as “the Alpha and the Omega.” (Compare Matt 25:40; Heb 2:10-12)
Jesus Christ has brothers but no sons.

Finally, at Rev 22:12-13, it says: “Look! I am coming quickly, and the reward I give is with me, to render to each one as his work is. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

We know that Jesus is the appointed judge of all the earth, and he comes in God’s name to render God’s justice on all who disobey the teaching that God sent him to give to those who will listen and obey his commands. Jesus acts on behalf of the one identified as “the beginning and the end”…the only one who could carry that designation.

Yahweh is the beginning and end of everything that exists, and Jesus himself clearly states that he is “the beginning of God’s creation”. (Rev 3:14) So Jesus is not the alpha and the omega, but in his earthly mission had a beginning and an end, himself…..paying for our sins with his own life….a life he willingly surrendered for all humanity.…..but it was “the only true God“ who “sent” him. (John 17:3)
 
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Aunty Jane

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Once you deny the deity of Christ, anything goes.
Once you fall for that lie, you will fall for all the others…..immortality of the soul….a hell of eternal torture….angels worshipping Jesus…..miracle healings….and everything else that gets bandied around for adoption. They all have one source.
If that not “anything goes”….what is?
 
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face2face

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Yahweh is the beginning and end of everything that exists, and Jesus himself clearly states that he is “the beginning of God’s creation”. (Rev 3:14) So Jesus is not the alpha and the omega, but in his earthly mission had a beginning and an end, himself…..paying for our sins with his own life….a life he willingly surrendered for all humanity.…..but it was “the only true God“ who “sent” him. (John 17:3)
Think more about that reference Jane in terms of God revealing Himself through Christ?

If God did (achieved) that perfectly which I believe you understand - what would that make Christ in his Father eyes and how would the Master speak if this is true?

If God made him the "author and finisher of our faith" (Heb 12:2), and to him we should look....could he speak on behalf of God? And how perfectly would he able able to speak on behalf of God (his Father)?

Yahweh has no beginning nor ending, His manifestation in man has. He "is" manifested in the Lord Jesus, and He "will be" manifested in sons of Adam over whom Christ is the Alpha and Omega. 1 John 3:1; Rom. 8:19; and compare Isa. 44:6 with Isa. 41:4.

So we must be careful not to diminish what God Has achieved in His Son.

This is what makes this subject so difficult and why men have deceived themselves with the T.

F2F
 

face2face

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@Aunty Jane @RedFan

Yahweh was/is manifested in a "body of humiliation"

who will transform these humble bodies of ours* into the likeness of his glorious body by means of that power by which he is able to subject all things to himself Php 3:21.

Do you understand the importance of this principle in relation to the Lord Jesus Christ?

*Grk “transform the body of our humility.

Connect it to "I am he that lives and was dead; and, behold, I am alive"

F2F
 

Lambano

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Well, apparently he said feel my flesh something along those lines, doesn’t the word say that flesh and bones can’t enter the Kingdom?

I truly don’t understand that scripture about feel his flesh, do you?
Luke 24:37-42 said:
37 They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. 38 He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? 39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”

40 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet. 41 And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, “Do you have anything here to eat?” 42 They gave him a piece of broiled fish, 43 and he took it and ate it in their presence.

That's about Jesus proving to His disciples that He was really resurrected; not an illusion, not a phantom, not a ghost.

As for flesh and blood not inheriting the Kingdom (1 Corinthians 15:50, let's go back a few verses:

1 Corinthians 15:35-44 said:
35 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” ... 39 Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. .. 42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a psuchikon (soul-powered) body, it is raised a pneumatikon (spirit-powered) body.

I have no concept of what a "pneumatikon" body is like, but whatever it is, Jesus had one post resurrection.
 
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Lambano

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I am not a T believer but I take issue with your assumption that 1 Tim 3:16 says that
“God was manifest in the flesh”….it doesn’t say that at all.

NASB….
By common confession, great is the mystery of godliness:
He who was revealed in the flesh,
Was vindicated in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Proclaimed among the nations,
Believed on in the world,

Taken up in glory.”
1 Timothy 3:16 is one of those verses where the manuscript evidence is mixed. NetBible has an extensive translator's note on it:

NetBible's translator's note on 1 Timothy 3:16 said:
tc The Byzantine text along with a few other witnesses (א A C D Ψ [88] 1241 1505 1739 1881 M al vg) read θεός (theos, “God”) for ὅς (hos, “who”). Most significant among these witnesses is 1739; the second correctors of some of the other mss tend to conform to the medieval standard, the Byzantine text, and add no independent voice to the textual problem. At least two mss have ὁ θεός (69 88), a reading that is a correction on the anarthrous θεός. On the other side, the masculine relative pronoun ὅς is strongly supported by א* A* C* F G 33 365 1175 Did Epiph. Significantly, D* and virtually the entire Latin tradition read the neuter relative pronoun, ὅ (ho, “which”), a reading that indirectly supports ὅς since it could not easily have been generated if θεός had been in the text. Thus, externally, there is no question as to what should be considered the Ausgangstext: The Alexandrian and Western traditions are decidedly in favor of ὅς. Internally, the evidence is even stronger. What scribe would change θεός to ὅς intentionally? “Who” is not only a theologically pale reading by comparison; it also is much harder (since the relative pronoun has no obvious antecedent, probably the reason for the neuter pronoun of the Western tradition). Intrinsically, the rest of 3:16, beginning with ὅς, appears to form a hymn with six strophes. As such, it is a text that is seemingly incorporated into the letter without syntactical connection. Hence, not only should we not look for an antecedent for ὅς (as is often done by commentators), but the relative pronoun thus is not too hard a reading (or impossible, as Dean Burgon believed). Once the genre is taken into account, the relative pronoun fits neatly into the author’s style (cf. also Col 1:15; Phil 2:6 for other places in which the relative pronoun begins a hymn, as was often the case in poetry of the day). On the other hand, with θεός written as a nomen sacrum it would have looked very much like the relative pronoun: q-=s vs. os. Thus, it may have been easy to confuse one for the other. This, of course, does not solve which direction the scribes would go, although given their generally high Christology and the bland and ambiguous relative pronoun, it is doubtful that they would have replaced θεός with ὅς. How then should we account for θεός? It appears that sometime after the 2nd century the θεός reading came into existence, either via confusion with ὅς or as an intentional alteration to magnify Christ and clear up the syntax at the same time. Once it got in, this theologically rich reading was easily able to influence all the rest of the mss it came in contact with (including mss already written, such as א A C D). That this reading did not arise until after the 2nd century is evident from the Western reading, ὅ. The neuter relative pronoun is certainly a “correction” of ὅς, conforming the gender to that of the neuter μυστήριον (mustērion, “mystery”). What is significant in this reading is (1) since virtually all the Western witnesses have either the masculine or neuter relative pronoun, the θεός reading was apparently unknown to them in the 2nd century (when the “Western” text seems to have originated, though its place of origination was most likely in the east); they thus supply strong indirect evidence of ὅς outside of Egypt in the 2nd century; (2) even 2nd century scribes were liable to misunderstand the genre, feeling compelled to alter the masculine relative pronoun because it appeared to them to be too harsh. The evidence, therefore, for ὅς is quite compelling, both externally and internally. As TCGNT 574 notes, “no uncial (in the first hand) earlier than the eighth or ninth century (Ψ) supports θεός; all ancient versions presuppose ὅς or ὅ; and no patristic writer prior to the last third of the fourth century testifies to the reading θεός.” Thus, the cries of certain groups that θεός has to be original must be seen as special pleading. To argue that heretics tampered with the text here is self-defeating, for most of the Western fathers who quoted the verse with the relative pronoun were quite orthodox, strongly affirming the deity of Christ. They would have dearly loved such a reading as θεός. Further, had heretics introduced a variant to θεός, a far more natural choice would have been Χριστός (Christos, “Christ”) or κύριος (kurios, “Lord”), since the text is self-evidently about Christ, but it is not self-evidently a proclamation of his deity. (See ExSyn 341-42, for a summary discussion on this issue and additional bibliographic references.)

I did warn you it was extensive. Did anybody read through all that?
 
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face2face

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1 Timothy 3:16 is one of those verses where the manuscript evidence is mixed. NetBible has an extensive translator's note on it:
Good luck reading that Jane!

Manifestation is everywhere in the OT / NT!

It's the method of how we are being saved...“God . . . hath spoken to us by a Son” Heb 1:1

Refuting the principle would be in vain.

F2F
 

face2face

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It is God’s words, God’s bread, God’s flesh; so much so that Jesus says to Philip, “He that hath seen me hath seen the Father.”

God is all about revealing His Will through us and when that happens we give Him Glory - why?

Because He is always right!

As hard as that is for us humans to comprehend

F2F
 

Aunty Jane

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That's about Jesus proving to His disciples that He was really resurrected; not an illusion, not a phantom, not a ghost.
Interestingly, there is no such word as “ghost” in the Bible. This word is derived from a Germanic word “Geist” which means “spirit”. The connotation of a “ghost” is linked to the false belief in an immortal soul. It is believed that spirits of the dead become ghosts…..nowhere is that taught in the Bible. So that word does not belong in Scripture. God is a spirit, not a ghost.
As for flesh and blood not inheriting the Kingdom (1 Corinthians 15:50, let's go back a few verses:

I have no concept of what a "pneumatikon" body is like, but whatever it is, Jesus had one post resurrection.
I had to look this up as I have not read about it before….
Strongs has the two words in question defined as “perishable” and imperishable”….IOW, those who are taken to heaven to rule with Christ in his Kingdom, leave behind their bodies of corruptible flesh and are given an imperishable spirit body.
Flesh and blood cannot exist outside of earth’s atmosphere, so those who are taken to heaven, are transformed or “born again”. It’s a physical transformation, not some airy fairy feeling that convinces some that they are this way on Earth in the flesh…..it’s not possible.

So Jesus was raised also with a spirit body, but with the ability to materialize like other spirit being had done in the past when God sent them on assignments to his earthly servants.
Gabriel for example presented himself as a man to Daniel and also to Mary some 500 years later.

Three angels presented themselves to Abraham at Mamre, and Sarah made a sumptuous meal for them and they ate and drank what was prepared for them. One spoke as Jehovah, so as the logos, (God’s spokesman) this was in all likelihood the pre-human Jesus. Yahweh could not communicate with sinful humans directly because sin is a barrier that prevents us from coming before the true God….this is why he appointed a mediator to act as a go-between so that communication with the human race could still take place. All our prayers are to be directed to the Father in the name of the son.
1 Timothy 3:16 is one of those verses where the manuscript evidence is mixed. NetBible has an extensive translator's note on it:


I did warn you it was extensive. Did anybody read through all that?
I did read it, and the conclusion is what I basically agree with…..
”…had heretics introduced a variant to θεός, a far more natural choice would have been Χριστός (Christos, “Christ”) or κύριος (kurios, “Lord”), since the text is self-evidently about Christ, but it is not self-evidently a proclamation of his deity.”

There is not a single conclusive Scripture that tells us directly and absolutely that Christ is anything but what he called himself….”the son of God”…..I’ll take his word for it. Yahweh is his God and always has been.

You tell me whether Almighty God can have two other equal gods as himself in heaven….and please provide the Scripture that says so…but not ones that infer what the words do not say. The Jews were taught from their Hebrew Scriptures……Jesus was Jewish and he was sent to Jews to preach about their God….he did not alter what those Scriptures taught. (Deut 6:4)
 
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