GJohn 1.1 ἦν

[face2face]

This isn't a criticism. But I want to discuss this.
If Jesus wasn't divine, what was he?

- Born of the virgin Mary
- Lived a sinless life
- Was in constant contact with the Father
- Confirmed by miracles
- Went to the cross on our behalf, to pay our death penalty
- Rose from the dead on the third day
- Spent another 40 day with his disciples
- Ascended to heaven to sit at the right hand of God

If Jesus wasn't divine, what was he?

[

I cannot go past the most profound Gospel work in the NT which is Romans

1 Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, 2 which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy Scriptures, 3 concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh 4 and was declared to be the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord, 5 through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of his name among all the nations, 6 including you who are called to belong to Jesus Christ, Rom 1:1–6.

This is not what the T believer would want if they held fast to the dogma!

He was the most incredible work of a Father toward a Son, I doubt eternity would ever produce another!!! So unique is this Creation of God!

F2F

 

[Aunty Jane]

Here is a question for T believers:

I am not a T believer but I take issue with your assumption that 1 Tim 3:16 says that
“God was manifest in the flesh”….it doesn’t say that at all.

NASB….
“By common confession, great is the mystery of godliness:
He who was revealed in the flesh,
Was vindicated in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Proclaimed among the nations,
Believed on in the world,
Taken up in glory.”

The mystery is not who God is, but “the mystery of godliness”….so what is this “godliness” here?

According to Strongs, it means….

1. reverence, respect
2. piety towards God

Did Jesus lack these qualities as the “image” of his God and Father? (Col 1:15)
“He was manifested [revealed] in the flesh”….not “God was was manifested in the flesh”…..very bad mistranslation to suggest that God should be substituted for “he” in this verse.

The Bible teaches that Jesus Christ was "God manifest in the flesh" (1 Tim. 3:16) and "the word" (Greek: logos) "made flesh." (John 1:14)

If Jesus was to use the Divine name would that prove he is Very God?

If the divine name had still been in use, John 1:1 would never have been used to prove that Jesus was deity….the word “theos” means “a god, goddess or divinity”. Was Jesus a divine “son of God”? Who can dispute that?

And since both “ho theos” and “theos” are used in John 1:1, only one is in reference to Yaheweh.
John 1:1 should have read….”In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Yahweh and the Word was divine.”
The Word was manifested in the flesh, not Yahweh. And John goes on to say that “no man has seen God at any time” (John 1:18)….how many people saw Jesus?

There is not even a suggestion of what Christendom has been led to believe through centuries of apostate teachings. Once people wake up to what the devil has done to the “Christian” faith they will see the reasons for its hopeless divisions and arguments.

Yahweh does not speak with a forked tongue…it’s the other fella who does that…..

 

[Aunty Jane]

If Jesus wasn't divine, what was he?

The word used for both Yahweh and his son is “theos” and Strongs primary definition of this word (what it actually means in Greek) is…

1. “a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities”

It can also mean….

1. “spoken of the only and true God
   
   1. refers to the things of God
   2. his counsels, interests, things due to him
2. whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way
   
   1. God's representative or viceregent
      
      1. of magistrates and judges”

So to interpret this word to mean only one entity is not in line with what is written.

Jesus was divine and unquestionably of divine origin…but he was not deity or even on any equal footing with the one he called “my God”. (Rev 3:14)
In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus says to Mary Magdalene…..
”Stop clinging to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.’”

If these are the words of God, then they make no sense to anyone.…and not to Mary who had no such belief.
She knew who he was, and what Jesus said made perfect sense to her because she knew who he was….the divine “son of God”.

 

[St. SteVen]

Jesus was divine and unquestionably of divine origin…but he was not deity or even on any equal footing with the one he called “my God”. (Rev 3:14)

How can someone be "divine and unquestionably of divine origin" and not be deity?
Was any other human of divine origin?

[

 

[Aunty Jane]

How can someone be "divine and unquestionably of divine origin" and not be deity?

There is a difference as the Greek meaning of the word points out.
If God himself can call human judges who represented him “gods” (theos) and use the same word and meaning for Jesus as the Christ (anointed one)….we have to ask….”who anointed Jesus to become “the Christ”? What was he before that? He was Jesus, son of Joseph the carpenter. In the flesh, he was not special in any way apart from the fact that he was sinless, giving him perfect intellect and physical advantage over others. He would most probably never had a sick day in his life….and if he had not offered his life for the redemption of the human race, he never would have died because perfect beings without sin had no natural cause of death.

Jesus said he had come down from heaven, indicating that he had a pre-human existence…but he was “with God” in heaven as his firstborn son. He had a pre-human existence and was God’s only son until other “sons” came into existence by means of this firstborn. (Col 1:15-17)

Was any other human of divine origin?

John the Baptist was a miracle of aging parents, like Isaac was to Abraham and Sarah, but neither of these was of divine origin like Jesus was….they were produced by their parents, whereas Jesus was produced by God’s spirit, taking his life force from heaven, and transferring it to the womb of a virgin as the Scriptures prophesied.

 

[St. SteVen]

There is a difference as the Greek meaning of the word points out.
If God himself can call human judges who represented him “gods” (theos) and use the same word and meaning for Jesus as the Christ (anointed one)….we have to ask….”who anointed Jesus to become “the Christ”? What was he before that? He was Jesus, son of Joseph the carpenter. In the flesh, he was not special in any way apart from the fact that he was sinless, giving him perfect intellect and physical advantage over others. He would most probably never had a sick day in his life….and if he had not offered his life for the redemption of the human race, he never would have died because perfect beings without sin had no natural cause of death.

Jesus said he had come down from heaven, indicating that he had a pre-human existence…but he was “with God” in heaven as his firstborn son. He had a pre-human existence and was God’s only son until other “sons” came into existence by means of this firstborn. (Col 1:15-17)

John the Baptist was a miracle of aging parents, like Isaac was to Abraham and Sarah, but neither of these was of divine origin like Jesus was….they were produced by their parents, whereas Jesus was produced by God’s spirit, taking his life force from heaven, and transferring it to the womb of a virgin as the Scriptures prophesied.

Thanks for your thoughtful and detailed response.
It helps me to better understand where you are coming from.

[

 

[face2face]

I am not a T believer but I take issue with your assumption that 1 Tim 3:16 says that
“God was manifest in the flesh”….it doesn’t say that at all.

NASB….
“By common confession, great is the mystery of godliness:
He who was revealed in the flesh,
Was vindicated in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Proclaimed among the nations,
Believed on in the world,
Taken up in glory.”

Revealed carries the same meaning Jane.

The mystery is not who God is, but “the mystery of godliness”….so what is this “godliness” here?

According to Strongs, it means….

1. reverence, respect
2. piety towards God

God revealed His own Character through Christ "he who has seen me has seen the Father"

Did Jesus lack these qualities as the “image” of his God and Father? (Col 1:15)
“He was manifested [revealed] in the flesh”….not “God was was manifested in the flesh”…..very bad mistranslation to suggest that God should be substituted for “he” in this verse.

The Scripture is absolutely lock tight on this Jane that God revealed His Character through Sin's Flesh - to mean the Word of God was the Mind of Christ revealing His redemption in a condemned man (flesh).

With this Paul is in harmony: “God promised . . . His Son Jesus Christ, who was made of the seed of David according to the flesh” (Rom. 1:1).

“Christ Jesus, whom God hath set forth as a mercy-seat to declare His righteousness” (3:25).

“God sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh” (8:3). “The last Adam” (1 Cor. 15:45).

“God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself” (2 Cor. 5:19).

“God hath made him to be sin (sinful flesh) for us, who knew no sin” (5:21).

“God sent forth his Son, made of a woman” (Gal. 4:4).

“Christ Jesus, being in the form of God” (Phil. 2:6). “Christ Jesus . . . God manifest in the flesh” (1 Tim. 3:16).

“God . . . hath spoken to us by a Son” (Heb. 1:1).

“Jesus, made a little lower than the angels” (2:9),

“took part of flesh and blood” (5:14).

“A body hast thou prepared me” (10:5).

You cannot argue with Paul's teaching!

If the divine name had still been in use, John 1:1 would never have been used to prove that Jesus was deity….the word “theos” means “a god, goddess or divinity”. Was Jesus a divine “son of God”? Who can dispute that?

In mind Jesus took on His Fathers thinking but in nature he was a Son of Adam!

And since both “ho theos” and “theos” are used in John 1:1, only one is in reference to Yahweh.
John 1:1 should have read….”In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Yahweh and the Word was divine.”
The Word was manifested in the flesh, not Yahweh.

You cannot separate God from His Word - impossible! As He speaks so He is!

And John goes on to say that “no man has seen God at any time” (John 1:18)….how many people saw Jesus?

They saw the Glory of His Character if they so looked! You don't need to see His Brilliance to Know Who God is.

There is not even a suggestion of what Christendom has been led to believe through centuries of apostate teachings. Once people wake up to what the devil has done to the “Christian” faith they will see the reasons for its hopeless divisions and arguments.

Yahweh does not speak with a forked tongue…it’s the other fella who does that…..

There is no other fella! If you believe in Gk gods one might

F2F

 

[face2face]

How can someone be "divine and unquestionably of divine origin" and not be deity?
Was any other human of divine origin?

[

You make the assumption Jesus was Divine

It's a flawed assumption.

He became Divine!

Divine cannot learn obedience - impossible! AND certainly God cannot obey Himself - ridiculous notion

Although he was a son, he learned obedience through what he suffered. Hebrews 5:8

F2F

 

[RedFan]

Aren't we treading into a banned topic here?

 

[RedFan]

If Jesus wasn't divine, what was he?

[

Fair question. I suppose some kind of secondary or "vice" demigod of the type premised by Arius. As a Trinitarian of sorts, I haven't had to spend much time on that issue.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Christ as the firstborn, only son, unique son

Πίστει προσενήνοχεν Ἀβραὰμ τὸν Ἰσαὰκ πειραζόμενος, καὶ τὸν μονογενῆ προσέφερεν ὁ τὰς ἐπαγγελίας ἀναδεξάμενος,

Look at these passages below of Heb 11.17 and see if you see something strange, even contradictory:

NASB 1995
By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son;

Holman Christian Standard Bible
By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac. He received the promises and he was offering his unique son,

World English Bible
By faith, Abraham, being tested, offered up Isaac. Yes, he who had gladly received the promises was offering up his only born son,

NET
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

Yup that's it. Easy to spot, right? But what about Ishmael. I thought Abraham's firstborn was Ishmael. The solution simply is knowing what firstborn means. It can mean first child born, or it can mean the preeminent one (not necessarily a child). We know the Isaac is not the firstborn child. This is just a reference to Isaac's unique, preeminent one.

You also wrote: "Truly the Word existed before all other creation." The Bible does not say that. You added the word "other" but such is not in the text.

You quoted Col 1.15, but look at the next verse. It says:
King James Bible
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him.

This word is also used of a notorious dissident, not a son who was the firstborn of a family.

Also, in the passage, GJohn 1.1, the Word is God (to a Jew, there is only one God, they do not believe in polytheism, i.e., a god), by definition is a Being that is eternal. later on in this Gospel Jesus/the Word will say that "he (masculine) and the father (masculine) are one (neuter) in essence.

The best book out on the deity of Christ is

Putting Jesus in His Place: The Case for the Deity of Christ, By: Robert M. Bowman Jr., J. Ed Komoszewski​

The Authors use the acronym HANDS to show the deity/eternality of Christ.

• H-Honors (Jesus shares the honors that are due God)
• A-Attributes (Jesus shares the attributes of God)
• N-Names (Jesus shares the names of God)
• D-Deeds (Jesus shares the deeds that God does)
• S-Seat (Jesus shares the seat of God's eternal throne)

Greek Grammar wise, there is the inescapable statement in Titus 2:13
προσδεχόμενοι τὴν μακαρίαν ἐλπίδα καὶ ἐπιφάνειαν τῆς δόξης τοῦ μεγάλου θεοῦ καὶ σωτῆρος ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ,1
looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
Here, great God and Savior refer to the same person, Jesus Christ.
(This is the necessary meaning of the one article with θεου and σωτηρος just as
in 2 Peter 1:1,11 . See Robertson, Grammar, p. 786).

Finally, Jesus is called God in Rom 9:5: Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.

I realize this is a basic argument for Christ's deity, an argument you have no doubt encountered many times. But I figure this might be a good start for a discussion on the deity of Jesus.

Any thoughts?

It's a futile argument with Non-Trinitarians. We love the challenge to prove them wrong but always ends without resolve. Love your effort though and the acronym. We've all gone round and round with these guys ... and we know it's gonna get ugly as we put up our dukes and fight.
I don't know how they can get through the book of John without seeing His deity?

I am the Way, the Truth and the Life ...
I am the Bread of Life
I am the Door
I am the Good Shepherd
I am the Resurrection ...
I am He ...
I am the Alpha and Omega ...

> IF Jesus wasn't God, He would not take all that credit above. Jesus would not draw any attention to himself, he would have given all the glory to his Father. He would not claim to be the source of Life/ Salvation, nor claim the ability to forgive and wash away sins. He would have said believe in God (the Father) only. He would not receive worship. No knee would ever be required to bow to him, he would have required all to bow to God only.
Aside from scriptures that point to the Great " I Am", who really introduced Himself in Exodus 3:14, we don't even need much scripture to prove our point. If Jesus was given all authority in heaven and on earth, you'd have to be omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscient to handle that job. That is a definition of God. If you are in control, you must be God. Jesus even claimed to have e always been there for the Israelites _ before He was born:

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing! Luke 13:34

 

[face2face]

Aren't we treading into a banned topic here?

We have been running a muck

 

[face2face]

I am the Alpha and Omega ...

I'm glad to know Christ, like myself, has a beginning and end, and we both worship Him who has no beginning or end.
F2F

 

[KUWN]

Here is how the Jews understood his claim to deity:

But Jesus answered them, My Father works hitherto, and I work. Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

 

[RedFan]

I'm glad to know Christ, like myself, has a beginning and end, and we both worship Him who has no beginning or end.
F2F

How do we wrap our heads around the "end" of Christ?

 

[face2face]

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing! Luke 13:34

The Master stating the figure of God’s care Psa 17:8-9; 36:7...care he himself received!

 

[face2face]

How do we wrap our heads around the "end" of Christ?

What do you mean end?

 

[RedFan]

What do you mean end?

I'm just saying, if Christ is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end, it must mean either that He is the beginning and the end of something (in which case, what is He the "end" of?), or that He Himself has a beginning and an end (in which case, how does He "end"?).

 

[face2face]

@RedFan

Here is one problem the T believers cannot solve...

When I saw him I fell down at his feet as though I were dead, but he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid! I am the first and the last, 1:18 and the one who lives! I was dead, but look, now I am alive—forever and ever—and I hold the keys of death and of Hades (grave) Re 1:17–18.

Christ's references to being dead and living (for evermore) make no sense, if he is God
If you don't believe Christ ceased to live and died, then you have no Victory over death
It would mean his death was a false façade and carried no meaningful atonement at all.

Remember it was through his death that the Victory over sin occurred and his Keys to grave and its unlocking could not be given to him if he was fully in death, and fully came out of it.

F2F

 

[face2face]

I'm just saying, if Christ is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end, it must mean either that He is the beginning and the end of something (in which case, what is He the "end" of?), or that He Himself has a beginning and an end (in which case, how does He "end"?).

The question is Who gave Him a beginning and an end?

Who is brave enough to state Christ doesn't have a beginning and an end when its fully revealed as such!

declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,’ Isaiah 46:10

This is how Christ could say things like "before Abraham was I am" and "My Father and I are one" etc.

Jesus understood His Father had chosen him and revealed to him things God had planned for His Son - things not yet done!

God waited for a Son no different to Abraham waiting for Isaac!

If Christ already existed how can he be a Son of Promise?

Impossible

F2F