GJohn 1.1 ἦν

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KUWN

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1.1
Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος
en archi hn o logos
in beginning was the Word

This is just a brief statement about the verb used here. It is the verb EIMI. It is in the Imperfect Tense. And en archi simply refers to the a beginning. Which beginning is contextually developed. Here the beginning is of the creation of all things. Now, the Imperfect verb here is ἦν hn. The Imperfect speaks of a time already existing before the beginning. So, the Logos existed before all things were created, meaning he was not created.
 

Fred J

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Truly the Word existed before all other creation, but it doesn't prove the point that He was not created. In the beginning was the Word, and to me plainly there are hints, that the Word Himself had a beginning before all else. Besides GOD who have no beginning at all, HIMSELF created the Word alone in the beginning.

Therefore after the Word got His beginning, GOD henceforth, by and through and for this Word, created all other creation, whether in Heaven or on earth. That's why GOD refers to the Word as HIS only begotten Son, while all other creation are the begotten of the Son.

Colossians 1:
15. Who is the image of the invisible GOD, the firstborn of every creature.


Every creature big and small, even angelic beings, are part of all creation, where the Word especially is the 'firstborn'. Whether He is the firstborn looking like all angelic creature in Heaven, or He especially is in another form pertaining to creature. Because scripturally we read, that three men visited Abraham and Sarah. And one of them is the Word, while the other two were angels, three of them in the form of man.

Even there are those who dispute, in Greek text is read, '............................................................, the firstborn 'over' every creature. It is true that the Word is 'over' every creature, but yet the word 'firstborn' cannot be overlooked nor taken away. This is plainly my testimony to what i have been taught based on scripture. Readers can decide for themselves who's version is the truth and run with it, thank you.

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ
 
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KUWN

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Truly the Word existed before all other creation, but it doesn't prove the point that He was not created. In the beginning was the Word, and to me plainly there are hints, that the Word Himself had a beginning before all else. Besides GOD who have no beginning at all, HIMSELF created the Word alone in the beginning.

Therefore after the Word got His beginning, GOD henceforth, by and through and for this Word, created all other creation, whether in Heaven or on earth. That's why GOD refers to the Word as HIS only begotten Son, while all other creation are the begotten of the Son.

Colossians 1:
15. Who is the image of the invisible GOD, the firstborn of every creature.


Every creature big and small, even angelic beings, are part of all creation, where the Word especially is the 'firstborn'. Whether He is the firstborn looking like all angelic creature in Heaven, or He especially is in another form pertaining to creature. Because Scripturally we read, that three men visited Abraham and Sarah. And one of them is the Word, while the other two were angels, three of them in the form of man.

Even there are those who dispute, in Greek text is read, '............................................................, the firstborn 'over' every creature. It is true that the Word is 'over' every creature, but yet the word 'firstborn' cannot be overlooked nor taken away. This is plainly my testimony to what i have been taught based on scripture. Readers can decide for themselves who's version is the truth and run with it, thank you.

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ

Christ as the firstborn, only son, unique son

Πίστει προσενήνοχεν Ἀβραὰμ τὸν Ἰσαὰκ πειραζόμενος, καὶ τὸν μονογενῆ προσέφερεν ὁ τὰς ἐπαγγελίας ἀναδεξάμενος,

Look at these passages below of Heb 11.17 and see if you see something strange, even contradictory:

NASB 1995
By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son;

Holman Christian Standard Bible
By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac. He received the promises and he was offering his unique son,

World English Bible
By faith, Abraham, being tested, offered up Isaac. Yes, he who had gladly received the promises was offering up his only born son,

NET
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

Yup that's it. Easy to spot, right? But what about Ishmael. I thought Abraham's firstborn was Ishmael. The solution simply is knowing what firstborn means. It can mean first child born, or it can mean the preeminent one (not necessarily a child). We know the Isaac is not the firstborn child. This is just a reference to Isaac's unique, preeminent one.

You also wrote: "Truly the Word existed before all other creation." The Bible does not say that. You added the word "other" but such is not in the text.

You quoted Col 1.15, but look at the next verse. It says:
King James Bible
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him.

This word is also used of a notorious dissident, not a son who was the firstborn of a family.

Also, in the passage, GJohn 1.1, the Word is God (to a Jew, there is only one God, they do not believe in polytheism, i.e., a god), by definition is a Being that is eternal. later on in this Gospel Jesus/the Word will say that "he (masculine) and the father (masculine) are one (neuter) in essence.

The best book out on the deity of Christ is

Putting Jesus in His Place: The Case for the Deity of Christ, By: Robert M. Bowman Jr., J. Ed Komoszewski


The Authors use the acronym HANDS to show the deity/eternality of Christ.
  • H-Honors (Jesus shares the honors that are due God)
  • A-Attributes (Jesus shares the attributes of God)
  • N-Names (Jesus shares the names of God)
  • D-Deeds (Jesus shares the deeds that God does)
  • S-Seat (Jesus shares the seat of God's eternal throne)
Greek Grammar wise, there is the inescapable statement in Titus 2:13
προσδεχόμενοι τὴν μακαρίαν ἐλπίδα καὶ ἐπιφάνειαν τῆς δόξης τοῦ μεγάλου θεοῦ καὶ σωτῆρος ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ,1
looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
Here, great God and Savior refer to the same person, Jesus Christ.
(This is the necessary meaning of the one article with θεου and σωτηρος just as
in 2 Peter 1:1,11 . See Robertson, Grammar, p. 786).

Finally, Jesus is called God in Rom 9:5: Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.

I realize this is a basic argument for Christ's deity, an argument you have no doubt encountered many times. But I figure this might be a good start for a discussion on the deity of Jesus.

Any thoughts?
 
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Fred J

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Christ as the firstborn, only son, unique son

Πίστει προσενήνοχεν Ἀβραὰμ τὸν Ἰσαὰκ πειραζόμενος, καὶ τὸν μονογενῆ προσέφερεν ὁ τὰς ἐπαγγελίας ἀναδεξάμενος,

Look at these passages below of Heb 11.17 and see if you see something strange, even contradictory:

NASB 1995
By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son;

Holman Christian Standard Bible
By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac. He received the promises and he was offering his unique son,

World English Bible
By faith, Abraham, being tested, offered up Isaac. Yes, he who had gladly received the promises was offering up his only born son,

NET
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

Yup that's it. Easy to spot, right? But what about Ishmael. I thought Abraham's firstborn was Ishmael. The solution simply is knowing what firstborn means. It can mean first child born, or it can mean the preeminent one (not necessarily a child). We know the Isaac is not the firstborn child. This is just a reference to Isaac's unique, preeminent one.
Yet, the 'firstborn' of GOD, and over all creation , furthermore, is HIS only 'begotten' Son.

'Isaac', is the promised son, therefore the 'firstborn' and only 'begotten' of Abraham and Sarah. And, 'Ismael' is not since of Hagar, and have no share in the promise nor the covenant of COD.

'Isaac', is Abraham's 'unique son', because Sarah was barren and unable to have kids her whole life. She conceive 'Isaac' when she was 96 years and above, at her ripe old age.
You also wrote: "Truly the Word existed before all other creation." The Bible does not say that. You added the word "other" but such is not in the text.

King James Bible
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him.
Indeed the Word existed before all other creation, since He is the one created them all.
 

face2face

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1.1
Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος
en archi hn o logos
in beginning was the Word

This is just a brief statement about the verb used here. It is the verb EIMI. It is in the Imperfect Tense. And en archi simply refers to the a beginning. Which beginning is contextually developed. Here the beginning is of the creation of all things. Now, the Imperfect verb here is ἦν hn. The Imperfect speaks of a time already existing before the beginning. So, the Logos existed before all things were created, meaning he was not created.
The Logos is the creative work. God's reason and power when spoken creates ("God said"). You would be pushing a wheelbarrow full of wet concrete uphill if you tried to deny Logos is not God's thoughts in action! Actually, I would doubt even the most militant trinitarian would argue against this fact.

If Logos did not become flesh as the New Spirtual creation then you have no hope, no Christ and what you have is the mere teachings of men.

F2F
 
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face2face

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For example: When it states "we shall be like him" it's not saying we shall actually be Christ - no, no, no! It's saying we shall be like him in character, purpose and when changed in nature. This is true of Christ also.

F2F
 
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Johann

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Any thoughts?
You are going to have your hands full brother @KUWN.


In a letter to the church at Colossae, the Apostle Paul gave an intriguing description of Jesus. In it, he explained Christ’s relationship to God the Father and to creation. Some have claimed that Paul’s description of Christ as the firstborn of creation means that Jesus was created—not eternal, not God.

Such a doctrine, however, conflicts with the rest of the Bible. Christ could not be both Creator and created; John 1 clearly names Him Creator. Let’s take a careful look at the passage where Jesus is called the firstborn.

Colossians 1:15-21
“And He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities — all things have been created by Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; so that He Himself might come to have first place in everything. For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.”

Jesus is God
Christ’s relationship to His Father begins with the phrase "the image of the invisible God." The word “image,” meaning copy or likeness, expresses Christ’s deity. This word involves more than a resemblance, more than a representation. He is God! Although He took on human form, He has the exact nature of His Father (Hebrews 1:3).

The "Word" of John 1:1 is a divine Person, not a philosophical abstraction. In the incarnation, the invisible God became visible in Christ; deity was clothed with humanity (Matthew 17:2). God is in Christ: visible, audible, approachable, knowable, and available. All that God is, Christ is.

Jesus is Lord of Creation
The description "firstborn of all creation" speaks of Christ’s preexistence. He is not a creature but the eternal Creator (John 1:10). God created the world through Christ and redeemed the world through Christ (Hebrews 1:2-4).

Note that Jesus is called the firstborn, not the first-created. The word "firstborn" (Greek word "prototokos") signifies priority. In the culture of the Ancient Near East, the firstborn was not necessarily the oldest child. firstborn referred not to birth order but to rank. The firstborn possessed the inheritance and leadership.

Therefore, the phrase expresses Christ’s sovereignty over creation. After resurrecting Jesus from the dead, God gave Him authority over the Earth (Matthew 28:18). Jesus created the world, saved the world, and rules the world. He is the self-existent, acknowledged Head of creation.

Finally, the phrase recognizes Him as the Messiah: "I will make Him [Christ] My firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth" (Psalm 89:27).

Six times the Lord Jesus is declared to be the firstborn of God (see Romans 8:29; Colossians 1:15, 18; Hebrews 1:6; 12:23; Revelation 1:5). These passages declare the preexistence, the sovereignty, and the redemption that Christ offers.

Thus, the phrase "firstborn of all creation" proclaims Christ’s preeminence. As the eternal Son of God, He created the universe. He is the Ruler of creation!

J.
 

face2face

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Such a doctrine, however, conflicts with the rest of the Bible. Christ could not be both Creator and created; John 1 clearly names Him Creator. Let’s take a careful look at the passage where Jesus is called the firstborn.
Such a doctrine is fully taught by the Apostles and you know J the T dogma is nowhere found in the Bible - the formula just isnt there. However, God manifestation is there in abundance.
 
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face2face

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Not only was he the firstborn who died to sin once and now lives for God and Righteousness, he represents those who also die to sin and live to manifest God.

One day J this teaching is going to catch you napping with your guard down and your logos Bible software crashed and you will see the truth.

F2F
 
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Johann

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Such a doctrine is fully taught by the Apostles and you know J the T dogma is nowhere found in the Bible - the formula just isnt there. However, God manifestation is there in abundance.
F2F-Jesus is not a created being-live with that.

εν αρχη ην ο λογος και ο λογος ην προς τον θεον και θεος ην ο λογος


Was (ēn). Three times in this sentence John uses this imperfect of eimi to be which conveys no idea of origin for God or for the Logos, simply continuous existence. Quite a different verb (egeneto, became) appears in Joh_1:14 for the beginning of the Incarnation of the Logos. See the distinction sharply drawn in Joh_8:58 “before Abraham came (genesthai) I am” (eimi, timeless existence).
The Word (ho logos). Logos is from legō, old word in Homer to lay by, to collect, to put words side by side, to speak, to express an opinion. Logos is common for reason as well as speech. Heraclitus used it for the principle which controls the universe. The Stoics employed it for the soul of the world (anima mundi) and Marcus Aurelius used spermatikos logos for the generative principle in nature. The Hebrew memra was used in the Targums for the manifestation of God like the Angel of Jehovah and the Wisdom of God in Pro_8:23. Dr. J. Rendel Harris thinks that there was a lost wisdom book that combined phrases in Proverbs and in the Wisdom of Solomon which John used for his Prologue (The Origin of the Prologue to St. John, p. 43) which he has undertaken to reproduce. At any rate John’s standpoint is that of the Old Testament and not that of the Stoics nor even of Philo who uses the term Logos, but not John’s conception of personal pre-existence. The term Logos is applied to Christ only in Joh_1:1, Joh_1:14; Rev_19:13; 1Jn_1:1 “concerning the Word of life” (an incidental argument for identity of authorship). There is a possible personification of “the Word of God” in Heb_4:12. But the personal pre-existence of Christ is taught by Paul (2Co_8:9; Php_2:6.; Col_1:17) and in Heb_1:2. and in Joh_17:5. This term suits John’s purpose better than sophia (wisdom) and is his answer to the Gnostics who either denied the actual humanity of Christ (Docetic Gnostics) or who separated the aeon Christ from the man Jesus (Cerinthian Gnostics). The pre-existent Logos “became flesh” (sarx egeneto, Joh_1:14) and by this phrase John answered both heresies at once.
With God (pros ton theon). Though existing eternally with God the Logos was in perfect fellowship with God. Pros with the accusative presents a plane of equality and intimacy, face to face with each other. In 1Jn_2:1 we have a like use of pros: “We have a Paraclete with the Father” (paraklēton echomen pros ton patera). See prosōpon pros prosōpon (face to face, 1Co_13:12), a triple use of pros. There is a papyrus example of pros in this sense to gnōston tēs pros allēlous sunētheias, “the knowledge of our intimacy with one another” (M.&M., Vocabulary) which answers the claim of Rendel Harris, Origin of Prologue, p. 8) that the use of pros here and in Mar_6:3 is a mere Aramaism. It is not a classic idiom, but this is Koiné, not old Attic. In Joh_17:5 John has para soi the more common idiom.
And the Word was God (kai theos ēn ho logos). By exact and careful language John denied Sabellianism by not saying ho theos ēn ho logos. That would mean that all of God was expressed in ho logos and the terms would be interchangeable, each having the article. The subject is made plain by the article (ho logos) and the predicate without it (theos) just as in Joh_4:24 pneuma ho theos can only mean “God is spirit,” not “spirit is God.” So in 1Jn_4:16 ho theos agapē estin can only mean “God is love,” not “love is God” as a so-called Christian scientist would confusedly say. For the article with the predicate see Robertson, Grammar, pp. 767f. So in Joh_1:14 ho Logos sarx egeneto, “the Word became flesh,” not “the flesh became Word.” Luther argues that here John disposes of Arianism also because the Logos was eternally God, fellowship of Father and Son, what Origen called the Eternal Generation of the Son (each necessary to the other). Thus in the Trinity we see personal fellowship on an equality.
Robertson.

ἦν] was present, existed. John writes historically, looking back from the later time of the incarnation of the λόγος (Joh_1:14). But he does not say, “In the beginning the ΛΌΓΟς came into existence,” for he does not conceive the generation (comp. μονογενής) according to the Arian view of creation, but according to that of Paul, Col_1:15.


We are in the last days.


Matthew 7:15 (NKJV)

"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves."

2. 2 Peter 2:1 (NKJV)

"But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction."

3. 1 John 4:1 (NKJV)

"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world."

4. Galatians 1:8 (NKJV)

"But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed."

5. 2 Corinthians 11:13-15 (NKJV)

"For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform as ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works."

6. Deuteronomy 18:20-22 (NKJV)

"But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in My name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die. And if you say in your heart, ‘How shall we know the word which the Lord has not spoken?’—when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him."

7. Jeremiah 23:16 (NKJV)

"Thus says the Lord of hosts: 'Do not listen to the words of the prophets who prophesy to you. They make you worthless; they speak a vision of their own heart, not from the mouth of the Lord.'"

8. Titus 1:10-11 (NKJV)

"For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole households, teaching things which they ought not, for the sake of dishonest gain."

9. Matthew 24:24 (NKJV)

"For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect."

10. 2 Timothy 4:3-4 (NKJV)

"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables."

These verses collectively reveal the gravity of discerning true from false teachings, emphasizing the need to remain grounded in sound doctrine and attentive to the truth, as guided by Scripture and the Holy Spirit.
 
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Johann

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Not only was he the firstborn who died to sin once and now lives for God and Righteousness, he represents those who also die to sin and live to manifest God.

One day J this teaching is going to catch you napping with your guard down and your logos Bible software crashed and you will see the truth.

F2F
Error mixed with a little truth-how is it I can see this and you can't?

Don't respond.

J.
 
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face2face

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F2F-Jesus is not a created being-live with that.

εν αρχη ην ο λογος και ο λογος ην προς τον θεον και θεος ην ο λογος


Was (ēn). Three times in this sentence John uses this imperfect of eimi to be which conveys no idea of origin for God or for the Logos, simply continuous existence. Quite a different verb (egeneto, became) appears in Joh_1:14 for the beginning of the Incarnation of the Logos. See the distinction sharply drawn in Joh_8:58 “before Abraham came (genesthai) I am” (eimi, timeless existence).
The Word (ho logos). Logos is from legō, old word in Homer to lay by, to collect, to put words side by side, to speak, to express an opinion. Logos is common for reason as well as speech. Heraclitus used it for the principle which controls the universe. The Stoics employed it for the soul of the world (anima mundi) and Marcus Aurelius used spermatikos logos for the generative principle in nature. The Hebrew memra was used in the Targums for the manifestation of God like the Angel of Jehovah and the Wisdom of God in Pro_8:23. Dr. J. Rendel Harris thinks that there was a lost wisdom book that combined phrases in Proverbs and in the Wisdom of Solomon which John used for his Prologue (The Origin of the Prologue to St. John, p. 43) which he has undertaken to reproduce. At any rate John’s standpoint is that of the Old Testament and not that of the Stoics nor even of Philo who uses the term Logos, but not John’s conception of personal pre-existence. The term Logos is applied to Christ only in Joh_1:1, Joh_1:14; Rev_19:13; 1Jn_1:1 “concerning the Word of life” (an incidental argument for identity of authorship). There is a possible personification of “the Word of God” in Heb_4:12. But the personal pre-existence of Christ is taught by Paul (2Co_8:9; Php_2:6.; Col_1:17) and in Heb_1:2. and in Joh_17:5. This term suits John’s purpose better than sophia (wisdom) and is his answer to the Gnostics who either denied the actual humanity of Christ (Docetic Gnostics) or who separated the aeon Christ from the man Jesus (Cerinthian Gnostics). The pre-existent Logos “became flesh” (sarx egeneto, Joh_1:14) and by this phrase John answered both heresies at once.
With God (pros ton theon). Though existing eternally with God the Logos was in perfect fellowship with God. Pros with the accusative presents a plane of equality and intimacy, face to face with each other. In 1Jn_2:1 we have a like use of pros: “We have a Paraclete with the Father” (paraklēton echomen pros ton patera). See prosōpon pros prosōpon (face to face, 1Co_13:12), a triple use of pros. There is a papyrus example of pros in this sense to gnōston tēs pros allēlous sunētheias, “the knowledge of our intimacy with one another” (M.&M., Vocabulary) which answers the claim of Rendel Harris, Origin of Prologue, p. 8) that the use of pros here and in Mar_6:3 is a mere Aramaism. It is not a classic idiom, but this is Koiné, not old Attic. In Joh_17:5 John has para soi the more common idiom.
And the Word was God (kai theos ēn ho logos). By exact and careful language John denied Sabellianism by not saying ho theos ēn ho logos. That would mean that all of God was expressed in ho logos and the terms would be interchangeable, each having the article. The subject is made plain by the article (ho logos) and the predicate without it (theos) just as in Joh_4:24 pneuma ho theos can only mean “God is spirit,” not “spirit is God.” So in 1Jn_4:16 ho theos agapē estin can only mean “God is love,” not “love is God” as a so-called Christian scientist would confusedly say. For the article with the predicate see Robertson, Grammar, pp. 767f. So in Joh_1:14 ho Logos sarx egeneto, “the Word became flesh,” not “the flesh became Word.” Luther argues that here John disposes of Arianism also because the Logos was eternally God, fellowship of Father and Son, what Origen called the Eternal Generation of the Son (each necessary to the other). Thus in the Trinity we see personal fellowship on an equality.
Robertson.

ἦν] was present, existed. John writes historically, looking back from the later time of the incarnation of the λόγος (Joh_1:14). But he does not say, “In the beginning the ΛΌΓΟς came into existence,” for he does not conceive the generation (comp. μονογενής) according to the Arian view of creation, but according to that of Paul, Col_1:15.


We are in the last days.


Matthew 7:15 (NKJV)

"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves."

2. 2 Peter 2:1 (NKJV)

"But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction."

3. 1 John 4:1 (NKJV)

"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world."

4. Galatians 1:8 (NKJV)

"But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed."

5. 2 Corinthians 11:13-15 (NKJV)

"For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform as ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works."

6. Deuteronomy 18:20-22 (NKJV)

"But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in My name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die. And if you say in your heart, ‘How shall we know the word which the Lord has not spoken?’—when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him."

7. Jeremiah 23:16 (NKJV)

"Thus says the Lord of hosts: 'Do not listen to the words of the prophets who prophesy to you. They make you worthless; they speak a vision of their own heart, not from the mouth of the Lord.'"

8. Titus 1:10-11 (NKJV)

"For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole households, teaching things which they ought not, for the sake of dishonest gain."

9. Matthew 24:24 (NKJV)

"For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect."

10. 2 Timothy 4:3-4 (NKJV)

"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables."

These verses collectively reveal the gravity of discerning true from false teachings, emphasizing the need to remain grounded in sound doctrine and attentive to the truth, as guided by Scripture and the Holy Spirit.
You know what you do when you can't express a truth J? You dump a bunch of text which makes no sense whatsoever and then walk away as if you have proven some point when we both no there is no an ounce of light in that post.

F2F
 
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face2face

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Error mixed with a little truth-how is it I can see this and you can't?

Don't respond.

J.
This type of response shows you don't have an answer to plain Scripture.

I've asked you a number of times now...how many times did Jesus die to sin?

And each time you refuse to answer!

Either be honest and answer the question, or be honest, and say "my theology cannot provide an answer"

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Johann

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You know what you do when you can't express a truth J? You dump a bunch of text which makes no sense whatsoever and then walk away as if you have proven some point when we both no there is no an ounce of light in that post.

F2F
The post wasn’t directed at you but at those genuinely seeking the truth, who constantly face a barrage of strange voices promoting and selling a different gospel.

J.
 
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face2face

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ἦν] was present, existed. John writes historically, looking back from the later time of the incarnation of the λόγος (Joh_1:14). But he does not say, “In the beginning the ΛΌΓΟς came into existence,” for he does not conceive the generation (comp. μονογενής) according to the Arian view of creation, but according to that of Paul, Col_1:15.
What's most sad about this is the context of Colossians would teach you the truth but you don't want to know the truth, only the many words in your commentaries.

1730110630744.png

If you studied the Word of God in context Johann you would find Paul is speaking of the Pre-eminence of Christ not the Pre-existence.

You are so messed up in your brain with 3n1 dogma, you can't see the main themes of the entire Epistle.

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face2face

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The post wasn’t directed at you but at those genuinely seeking the truth, who constantly face a barrage of strange voices promoting and selling a different gospel.

J.
They already have the strange gospel Johann that's why I'm showing you the true one.
 

face2face

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Also J - God is not a creature, He is the Creator of all creatures/creation - Jesus is the Firstborn of the Spiritual Creation (Pre-Eminence!!!).

You know this also, but you are not allowed to believe it, for to do so removes volumes of traditions!

And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. Col 1:18.

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face2face

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What's really sad Johann, you can't even acknowledge Colossians 1:18 - you can't admit to Pauls theme (pre-eminence) or even honestly state you are forcing T error on the Word and calling it truth.

It's so dishonest and yet you take a position of authority by standing behind your many commentaries while totally ignoring Paul's teaching.

It's growing tiresome that's for certain!

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RedFan

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Also J - God is not a creature, He is the Creator of all creatures/creation - Jesus is the Firstborn of the Spiritual Creation (Pre-Eminence!!!).

You know this also, but you are not allowed to believe it, for to do so removes volumes of traditions!

And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. Col 1:18.

F2F
Can you please substitute "Son" (or "Word" or "Wisdom" or something else) for "Jesus" here, and reserve "Jesus" for the incarnate Son? It sure would help me keep things straight!
 
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