Genesis as allegory? - History versus allegory
- Thread starter St. SteVen
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It's not PARTIALLY correct, it's 100% correct. And acts 2:47 addresses the question. Upon baptism, your sins are forgiven, you receive the indwelling of the Holy Ghost, and verse 47 says the Lord adds you to the body. It all happens at baptism, not at belief; you're still in sin at belief, still alienated from God.
Read the words of the scriptures. That's all I'm doing and putting the pieces together. I don't care if someone or even everyone disagrees with me; that's not the point. But, to disagree with the words and logical order outlined in the scriptures is a different matter. Upon belief, the first step, the scriptures clearly show the next step was what, or was another step necessary? Were there no other steps subsequent to belief that are mentioned in the scriptures? And the record says what about those other steps? Were there no benefits associated with the other steps? It'd be extremely hard, actually impossible, to say no other things or steps were necessary nor benefits associated with continuing after belief. After the Jews were convinced on the day of Pentecost, was that all they did, just believe, or were they told to do other things? And after they did, what was the end result? What do the scriptures say? Is it the scriptures saying it or is it me just pulling it out of the air? What was Saul (Paul) fold to do after belief, or was he told nothing? What did the Ethiopian eunuch do after he believed Philip's preaching, or was he told nothing or did he do nothing more? The scriptures are very clear. So once again, it doesn't matter if EVERYONE disagrees with me, but it's the scriptures that can't be ignored in good faith. I suggest you humble yourself by shedding your biases, read the scriptures carefully, and let them speak to you.
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The answer to all the questions is the fall of humanity.If the fall of humanity did not happen salvation is not required and Jesus did not need to come.The cause of everything is the fall of humanity its why we need salvation Genesis must be there .Why are people so blind to that because they cannot believe it - that man fell from the grace of God from the very beginning and needs salvation to ascend to heaven and that it was Satan and the fallen Angels that tempted Eve causing all of this to prevent us from obtaining eternal life..Its what the bible says.What book are you reading?
If Genesis never happened why does humanity need salvation???????????????????????????????
As a Christian the first thing you need to understand is why you need salvation - what happened that you need salvation.Then you can move on.
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That saw cuts both ways.
Why would you marginalize others that have a different opinion on the subject?
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No it doesn't. There's one truth and it goes one way. You're now simply resorting to your words, vain words based on your emotions while continuing to ignore the scriptures and what they say such as those I pointed to. Go ahead, try to refute the scriptures or give an explanation as to why they don't mean exactly what they say and orivide your explanation as to what they mean as opposed to what they say in very straightforward simple language that the very simple, uneducated people.of biblical times could understand.
Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
That's not sound logic. If there were no story of Adam & Eve, we wouldn't have the idea that everything was once perfect or pristine. We would assume that everything had always been messy and error-full. That being the case, there would still be the need for a saviour.
Honestly, if you remove Augustine's doctrine of Original Sin it doesn't really change much about Christianity.
You claim that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit comes with water baptism.
How do you explain what happened at Samaria and the house of Cornelius?
In Samaria, the baptized believers had not received the Holy Spirit.
At the House of Cornelius, Peter was still speaking when the Holy Spirit came.
Water baptism came later.
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Everyone who's baptized receives the gift, singular, not a gift or gifts, but the actual spirit itself. Don't confuse the gift of the Spirit with a gift from the spirit, one of those listed gifts in 1cor 12: 8-10, which are manifestations of the Spirit like the gift of tongues were.
The only 2 times the Spirit fell unilaterally in a miraculous manner was in Acts 2 onbthe 11 apostles, and Acts 10 on Cornelius, and in each event, it did so as a sign from God for to validate what was happening, and know each occurrence, the church began; 1st in Jerusalem with the Jews believing and then in Caesarea with the Gentiles believing. The Spirit fell to validate or authorize. Immediately after that, both the Jews were baptized into the body as were the Gentiles. In both instances they Spirit manifested itself as a gift, tongues, first, then theyvthat believed still had to have sins removed, have the Spirit dwell within them, and become part of the body of believers, the church. The manifestation or gifts in all other instances happened only after the apostles laid their hands on individuals.
I'm not claiming anything! The Bible claims that very clearly, I'm simply parroting what the BIBLE says in many places and infers in other places, if you simply read without bias!
What does Jesus say here??? It is 100% clear! Belief first followed by baptism = salvation! The 2 elements are intertwined, tied together by the conjunction "and". The two things are inseparable!
Mk 16:15-16
15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
If you don't understand why Genesis needs to be there I suggest you go back and read it over and over until you do.You can't have Christianity without Genesis you have removed the whole reason why you need salvation in the first place making Jesus just a nice guy forgiving sins for no reason making him into a Buddha like figure with just wise sayings.
Heres a hint he's is the Savior he is saving you from something its why he came.Something that you cannot save yourself from and need him to raise you up and wash you of your sins so you can have eternal life.Something that happened at the beginning of Genesis.
Christianity is hard for the logical mind it just can't be true to most people .How many people believe Satan exists its to illogical for them to believe in this modern world.That they are in a fallen state is even more illogical to them.You have to take it all in faith and you can't just pick the bits and piece that only you believe it has to be take as a whole nothing can be removed or lessened.This faith has stood for 2000 years and today some have made Genesis into allegory because it to illogical to believe for the modern world..
Who are our enemies in Christianity who are the enemies of salvation the world, the flesh, and the devil.
Christianity is about the fall of humanity in Genesis the coming of the Savior 2000 years ago the sacrifice Jesus made then God the Father raising his soul from the dead Jesus raising his soul to heaven and the Father returning his glory to him.Its why he came.Now taking up his Judgment and power of resurrection.We find our salvation in faith in his death and resurrection that his sacrifice was acceptable he was raised up from death by the Father and he did raise his soul to heaven and in him we can also be raised up to eternal life in heaven by having faith in him and his resurrection and following the word of God.You can't have Jesus without faith in his resurrection. It what all our hope is in.Hope is faith.
It that all allegory to.
If you don't believe he was raised up by the Father and don't believe he raise his soul to heaven and that we to can be raised up in him what is your faith in?
Heres a hint he's is the Savior he is saving you from something its why he came.Something that you cannot save yourself from and need him to raise you up and wash you of your sins so you can have eternal life.Something that happened at the beginning of Genesis.
Christianity is hard for the logical mind it just can't be true to most people .How many people believe Satan exists its to illogical for them to believe in this modern world.That they are in a fallen state is even more illogical to them.You have to take it all in faith and you can't just pick the bits and piece that only you believe it has to be take as a whole nothing can be removed or lessened.This faith has stood for 2000 years and today some have made Genesis into allegory because it to illogical to believe for the modern world..
Who are our enemies in Christianity who are the enemies of salvation the world, the flesh, and the devil.
Christianity is about the fall of humanity in Genesis the coming of the Savior 2000 years ago the sacrifice Jesus made then God the Father raising his soul from the dead Jesus raising his soul to heaven and the Father returning his glory to him.Its why he came.Now taking up his Judgment and power of resurrection.We find our salvation in faith in his death and resurrection that his sacrifice was acceptable he was raised up from death by the Father and he did raise his soul to heaven and in him we can also be raised up to eternal life in heaven by having faith in him and his resurrection and following the word of God.You can't have Jesus without faith in his resurrection. It what all our hope is in.Hope is faith.
It that all allegory to.
If you don't believe he was raised up by the Father and don't believe he raise his soul to heaven and that we to can be raised up in him what is your faith in?
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Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
We do need parts of Genesis. Abraham and his covenant with God are a foundation stone that cannot be done without.
But if Adam & Eve aren't literal, or if the story of the Fall of Man was completely missing, Christianity would be just fine. We would still have "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" and so we would still need a saviour. An original sin isn't necessary for guilt when we all sin anyway.
Honestly, even if none of that were written, your own two eyes should tell you that humanity has issues with doing the right things.
If Adam and Eve never exist and there was no fall of humanity there is no need for Abraham to make a covenant with God or Salvation.But your ok with Abraham making a covenant it makes no sense.What the heck is he making a covenant for in your belief . God would not have to do anything and this whole salvation business is nonsense and nothing is wrong.If mankind had not fallen you would not be a sinner you are sinning because you are in fallen state.How long have you believed like this you couldn't be more wrong.That's what happens when you pick and choose what is believable and not believable in the bible the whole bible just becomes nonsense because you did not understand it or believe it.
I am not wasting one more minute on this - read your entire bible and take the faith as a whole you have butchered Christianity so you can believe in it.You eliminated all the parts you can't believe.
You make Jesus sacrifice meaningless and for no reasons he is just a nice guy forgiving sins for some reason.He would be delusional for making a sacrifice he didn't need to make because humanity never was in a fallen state according to you it never happened it was just a fairy tale.Better let Jesus know he didn't need to make the sacrifice he went through all of it for nothing.
You have missed what the bible is telling you and made it into something else.You must also think man is a produce of evolution Genesis tells us we are not we are a created being separate from nature and are not a produce of evolution.If Adam and Eve never happened then man is a produce of evolution there is no creation story or fall of humanity it was wiped away in your version as allegory.
There is no need for salvation in your version because there was no fall of humanity it really is that simple.
I am not wasting one more minute on this - read your entire bible and take the faith as a whole you have butchered Christianity so you can believe in it.You eliminated all the parts you can't believe.
You make Jesus sacrifice meaningless and for no reasons he is just a nice guy forgiving sins for some reason.He would be delusional for making a sacrifice he didn't need to make because humanity never was in a fallen state according to you it never happened it was just a fairy tale.Better let Jesus know he didn't need to make the sacrifice he went through all of it for nothing.
You have missed what the bible is telling you and made it into something else.You must also think man is a produce of evolution Genesis tells us we are not we are a created being separate from nature and are not a produce of evolution.If Adam and Eve never happened then man is a produce of evolution there is no creation story or fall of humanity it was wiped away in your version as allegory.
There is no need for salvation in your version because there was no fall of humanity it really is that simple.
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Do you know the penalty of chopping out the parts of the Bible you don't like?
Revelation 22:19 If anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
How sad and Satanic it is to laugh about chopping up the Bible! No doubt many who chop out parts of the Bible they don't like are heading for Hell!
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Another common bogus apologetic.
"the words of the book of this prophecy" is in reference to the book of Revelation, not the whole Bible.
Easier to understand when the word scroll is used.
Revelation 22:19 NIV
And if anyone takes words away(A) from this scroll of prophecy,(B) God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life(C) and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.
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