"Free" Will

[RANDOR]

Bible Verses About Free Will Bible verses related to Free Will from the King James Version (KJV) by Relevance
-



Ephesians 2:8-9 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

John 8:24 - I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins.

Proverbs 16:9 - A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.

Ephesians 2:2 - Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Romans 13:2 - Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

Acts 2:38 - Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Luke 13:3 - I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Joshua 24:15 - And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that [were] on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

John 8:32 - And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

John 7:17 - If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or [whether] I speak of myself.

Proverbs 12:24 - The hand of the diligent shall bear rule: but the slothful shall be under tribute.

2 Thessalonians 1:8 - In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

I still could be missin the point here with this post..........and if I am............Huh.....disregaurd what I put up here.

I guess when I think of free will...............well to be truthful...........I never have :)

Never gave it much thought.........I just thought free will was just free will.

I pretty much had free will before I met Christ......and...I feel like that hasn't changed.....

But....my free will chooses to serve Christ.

I guess I'll just keep on keeping on with my thoughts of free will.

Now.....................lets take a jw and others of course.............................Ha! no free will there...............what so ever.......
Just a low class robot factory in my opinion.

Can't do this, can't do that.......oh---no...that's not allowed either.

satan loves no free will people as much as free willies who don't chase God.

God said it and I believe it
God said it..............................wether I believe it or not :)

 

[Floyd]

[SIZE=28pt]The Call of God.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]The controversy of “freewill”, versus “no freewill” in the matter of “Salvation in Christ Jesus”; is one of the most contentious subjects of the last 500 years. The re-examination of the “doctrines” of the Roman Church, forced by the “Protestants” has positioned this issue quite correctly at the forefront of the debate. There are many opinions, and as many Groups and teachings, with many “shades” of variation.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]For example, the extreme Calvinist states; “no person can make the decision to accept Christ Jesus, and His Salvation; it is God’s decision, not the individuals”.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]In the opinion of the writers, if that was the case, there would not be the need for a book called the Bible; which contains the Word and Message of God; or the Person of the Holy Spirit of God, whom Jesus called “the Spirit of Truth, the Comforter”, Who now works on the hearts of men and women all over the world![/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]There would not even be the need for people to have a brain, or the ability to think, as the destiny would already have been determined by God! Taking this concept further, what would even be the purpose of living, if one was only an automaton, a number, with a definite, forced destination?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]From this comment, it can be seen that the extreme view of Calvinists is without veracity, as [/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]God Almighty values highly the decisions we make which are to His Plan and Foreknowledge![/SIZE]


[SIZE=14pt]When considering the great men of both the Old Testament (OT), and the New Testament (NT); They were all given the choice as to whether to obey God, or not![/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]We know that Eve disobeyed, followed by Adam; which laid the basis of the temporary success of God’s Enemy, Satan. However; there then followed a long line of men (and women), who obeyed by their freewill, [/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]God’s Call![/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]In that list are Noah, Abram, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Joshua, Gideon, Jonah, David, Daniel, Ezra, John the Baptist, Saul (Apostle Paul); and many others less well known.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]All these men were “called”, and some put up more resistance than others, but Almighty God did not usurp their will; He repeated His call and spoke to them, but they all made the decision to acknowledge God and serve Him themselves! God did not force them to concede! Those actions by these men of God, went some way to counter those of Satan, but; the conflict between Satan and Almighty God had /has further to go, and the “freewill” of all of the Members of the Body of Christ, has a part to play, in the same way as those of the great men listed, and the countless others since Eden![/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]It is undoubtedly the case that God foreknew the eventual decisions of these men, and us; but, that fact does not discount or disqualify the fact of the exercise of “freewill”![/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Calvinists use many Biblical Texts to argue their case. One such is Romans 8:28-30.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]V28: “But we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them that are called according to [/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]His purpose[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]” V29: “For whom He foreknew, He foreordained, to be conformed to the image of His Son, the firstborn among many brethren”. V30: “But whom He did foreordain, them [/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]He also called[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]: and whom He called, them He justified, and whom He justified, them [/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]He glorified[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]”. (KJV).[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]This description of God’s Sovereign Love and Grace; in His foreknowledge of those who would/will decide to turn to Him and accept His Great Salvation in Christ Jesus our Lord; again shows [/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]His valuation[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt] of the “freewill[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]”[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] of His created beings; and their response to [/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]His Call[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] and [/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]the opposite vacuousness of the Calvinist teaching; which insists that the person’s freewill is not involved.[/SIZE]


[SIZE=14pt]When the verses quoted by Calvinists in support of their stance are examined, they fall into the same category of misconstruence as above. They have a perverse way of inverting the truth of each Text to suit the error of their interpretation! They often have an aggression of presentation, which does not ring true to the Love our Lord displayed on earth, or to the central message of Salvation! In the writers view, the "Enemy" is easily evident in their subtle perversity! He tried it successfully with Eve and Adam, and unsuccessfully with our Lord Himself! Interestingly, our Lord used only correct Scripture against Satan, and did not concede any proposition Satan made! It is much the same with present day "Tares" (Satan's workers), they will not relent their master's will, and, if they are engaged by a Christ-One, as in the case of our Lord Himself; correct Scripture should be quoted against them. Some Calvinists the writers have knowledge of, display distinctly similar behaviour, and many are abusive in their presentation! In the time of "the harvest" (Matt.13), the "wheat and the tares" will be collected together, [/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]and will not be divided off until then[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]![/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] What that information shows is that the workers of the "Enemy" will not be easily discerned by many trusting Christians until that time, and they may well sit in the same Pew in the churches![/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]A very telling verse that shows the pleasure Almighty God has in the seeker after Truth is Hebrews 11:6; "But without faith it is impossible to please Him: for he that cometh to God (Theos = the revealed God) must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that [/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]diligently[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt] seek Him[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]", (this seeking would be called works by extreme Calvinists). This Chapter comments on the great men of God, and shows the criterion of "faith".[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]God in the past as shown above, set up situations in His planned opposition to Satan, which needed his servants active participation. He then approached His “chosen” person, and requested their involvement, by their active will![/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]The situation is similar as regards His approach to people (via His Holy Spirit), in the makeup of the number of the Body of Christ, (of which there is a definite number). When the last person ([/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]by their freewill[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]) has turned to Jesus the Christ for Salvation; this process will end; and a New Age will begin![/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]It is possible that many Calvinists do not differentiate mentally between the Sovereignty of God, and the freewill of the individual, and there are always those who latch onto what they see as a safe teaching for whatever reason. [/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]One of the extended errors of the extreme end of the Calvinist spectrum, is that they think and teach that they have replaced Israel in the Favour and Future of Almighty God[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]![/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] That error alone is one that goes directly against the Word of God; and plays into the hands of Jehovah Zabeoth’s great Enemy, Satan. That error alone should give them taking thought; as to fight against God is what the great Jewish teacher Gamaliel warned against in Acts 5:34-39![/SIZE]

 

[shturt678]

Bible Verses About Free Will Bible verses related to Free Will from the King James Version (KJV) by Relevance
-



Ephesians 2:8-9 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

John 8:24 - I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins.

Proverbs 16:9 - A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.

Ephesians 2:2 - Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Romans 13:2 - Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

Acts 2:38 - Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Luke 13:3 - I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Joshua 24:15 - And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that [were] on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

John 8:32 - And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

John 7:17 - If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or [whether] I speak of myself.

Proverbs 12:24 - The hand of the diligent shall bear rule: but the slothful shall be under tribute.

2 Thessalonians 1:8 - In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

I still could be missin the point here with this post..........and if I am............Huh.....disregaurd what I put up here.

I guess when I think of free will...............well to be truthful...........I never have :)

Never gave it much thought.........I just thought free will was just free will.

I pretty much had free will before I met Christ......and...I feel like that hasn't changed.....

But....my free will chooses to serve Christ.

I guess I'll just keep on keeping on with my thoughts of free will.

Now.....................lets take a jw and others of course.............................Ha! no free will there...............what so ever.......
Just a low class robot factory in my opinion.

Can't do this, can't do that.......oh---no...that's not allowed either.

satan loves no free will people as much as free willies who don't chase God.

God said it and I believe it
God said it..............................wether I believe it or not :)

Thank you for calling my bluff - good job!

I was dragging my old feet getting started for the day, and seen your post kickstarting my day - thank you my brohter, ie, we'll have to agree to disagree of course.

Old Jack ready for the day now.

btw the translated Bible's stucture of thoughts do support "Free-will."

 

[Jun2u]

To all concerned I say this kindly, most people do not understand the meaning of Salvation, God's Salvation Plan, that is. It is said all that anyone needed to do to become saved was believe and have faith in Jesus. But, each and every conclusion that man arrives at as truth must be read in light of the whole Bible. For instance, Ro 3:10-12 reads:

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that
doeth good, no, not one.

God had declared that the heart of man is desperately wicked, who can know it?

If God's assessment of the human race is that NO ONE seeks after Him, how then can anyone say they have the ability to believe or have faith in Jesus? THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE! To believe or to have faith in Jesus is a work that man performs, and those that believe they have the ability to do such things negates what Jesus said in Jn 6:44. !Th 1:3 has the same idea as Eph 2:9.

1Th 1:3 reads:

“Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father”.

Those who are proponents for “free will” actually have a “do it yourself gospel” which are prevalent in the churches of today (see, 2Co 11:14-15).

To enhance their arguments, they bring in words like “foreknowledge” or “foreknow” and “predestination” as if to make their case stronger, unaware that these words are actually beautiful to hear to the ears of those who truly know the meaning of God's salvation program. For example, Ge 4:1 reads:

“And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD”

I've underlined the word “knew” to emphasize that there exists an intimate relationship between the words “knew” and “love”, and between God and man. Thus the phrase could be understood this way, “And Adam “loved” Eve his wife: and she conceived”. Can we conclude that the word “know” or “knew” be translated as “love” which also mean to “experience”? Most certainly. This idea can also be seen and applied to the story of Joseph and Mary that we read about in Mt 1:25.

The example above is necessary to show how the word “foreknowledge” or “foreknow” is intimately related with “love”.

Time and time again I have stated that the Bible is a spiritual book and must therefore be interpreted/discerned spiritually. 1Co 2:14 reads:

“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness
unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned”.

Jesus spoke in parables also and without a parable He did not speak.

Mt 13:34
“All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake
he not unto them”.

Mr 4:34
“But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded
all things to his disciples.

A parable is an earthly story with a heavenly meaning.

Armed with the knowledge (no pun intended) we have seen above, here then is the true meaning of “foreknowledge” as prescribe/defined in Scripture:

GOD “FORELOVED” (FOREKNEW) ONLY THOSE HE HAD PLANNED TO SAVE, AND “PREDESTINATED” (ELECTED/CHOSE) THEM TO SALVATION BEFORE THE FONDATION OF THE WORLD.

I'd rather be a robot than have brains and end up in damnation!

To God Be The Glory
To all concerned I say this kindly, most people do not understand the meaning of Salvation, God's Salvation Plan, that is. It is said all that anyone needed to do to become saved was believe and have faith in Jesus. But, each and every conclusion that man arrives at as truth must be read in light of the whole Bible. For instance, Ro 3:10-12 reads:

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that
doeth good, no, not one.

God had declared that the heart of man is desperately wicked, who can know it?

If God's assessment of the human race is that NO ONE seeks after Him, how then can anyone say they have the ability to believe or have faith in Jesus? THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE! To believe or to have faith in Jesus is a work that man performs, and those that believe they have the ability to do such things negates what Jesus said in Jn 6:44. 1Th 1:3 has the same idea as Eph 2:9.

1Th 1:3 reads:

“Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father”.

Those who are proponents for “free will” actually have a “do it yourself gospel” which are prevalent in the churches of today (see, 2Co 11:14-15).

To enhance their arguments, they bring in words like “foreknowledge” or “foreknow” and “predestination” as if to make their case stronger, unaware that these words are actually beautiful to hear to the ears of those who truly know the meaning of God's salvation program. For example, Ge 4:1 reads:

“And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD”

I've underlined the word “knew” to emphasize that there exists an intimate relationship between the words “knew” and “love”, and between God and man. Thus the phrase could be understood this way, “And Adam “loved” Eve his wife: and she conceived”. Can we conclude that the word “know” or “knew” be translated as “love” which also mean to “experience”? Most certainly. This idea can also be seen and applied to the story of Joseph and Mary that we read about in Mt 1:25.

The example above is necessary to show how the word “foreknowledge” or “foreknow” is intimately related with “love”.

Time and time again I have stated that the Bible is a spiritual book and must therefore be interpreted/discerned spiritually. 1Co 2:14 reads:

“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness
unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned”.
Jesus spoke in parables also and without a parable He did not speak.

Mt 13:34
“All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake
he not unto them”.

Mr 4:34
“But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded
all things to his disciples.

A parable is an earthly story with a heavenly meaning.

Armed with the knowledge (no pun intended) we have seen above, here then is the true meaning of “foreknowledge” as prescribe/defined in Scripture:

GOD “FORELOVED” (FOREKNEW) ONLY THOSE HE HAD PLANNED TO SAVE, AND “PREDESTINATED” (ELECTED/CHOSE) THEM TO SALVATION BEFORE THE FONDATION OF THE WORLD.

I'd rather be a robot than have brains and end up in damnation!

To God Be The Glory

 

[shturt678]

To all concerned I say this kindly, most people do not understand the meaning of Salvation, God's Salvation Plan, that is. It is said all that anyone needed to do to become saved was believe and have faith in Jesus. But, each and every conclusion that man arrives at as truth must be read in light of the whole Bible. For instance, Ro 3:10-12 reads:

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that
doeth good, no, not one.

God had declared that the heart of man is desperately wicked, who can know it?

If God's assessment of the human race is that NO ONE seeks after Him, how then can anyone say they have the ability to believe or have faith in Jesus? THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE! To believe or to have faith in Jesus is a work that man performs, and those that believe they have the ability to do such things negates what Jesus said in Jn 6:44. !Th 1:3 has the same idea as Eph 2:9.

1Th 1:3 reads:

“Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father”.

Those who are proponents for “free will” actually have a “do it yourself gospel” which are prevalent in the churches of today (see, 2Co 11:14-15).

To enhance their arguments, they bring in words like “foreknowledge” or “foreknow” and “predestination” as if to make their case stronger, unaware that these words are actually beautiful to hear to the ears of those who truly know the meaning of God's salvation program. For example, Ge 4:1 reads:

“And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD”

I've underlined the word “knew” to emphasize that there exists an intimate relationship between the words “knew” and “love”, and between God and man. Thus the phrase could be understood this way, “And Adam “loved” Eve his wife: and she conceived”. Can we conclude that the word “know” or “knew” be translated as “love” which also mean to “experience”? Most certainly. This idea can also be seen and applied to the story of Joseph and Mary that we read about in Mt 1:25.

The example above is necessary to show how the word “foreknowledge” or “foreknow” is intimately related with “love”.

Time and time again I have stated that the Bible is a spiritual book and must therefore be interpreted/discerned spiritually. 1Co 2:14 reads:

“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness
unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned”.

Jesus spoke in parables also and without a parable He did not speak.

Mt 13:34
“All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake
he not unto them”.

Mr 4:34
“But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded
all things to his disciples.

A parable is an earthly story with a heavenly meaning.

Armed with the knowledge (no pun intended) we have seen above, here then is the true meaning of “foreknowledge” as prescribe/defined in Scripture:

GOD “FORELOVED” (FOREKNEW) ONLY THOSE HE HAD PLANNED TO SAVE, AND “PREDESTINATED” (ELECTED/CHOSE) THEM TO SALVATION BEFORE THE FONDATION OF THE WORLD.

I'd rather be a robot than have brains and end up in damnation!

To God Be The Glory

To all concerned I say this kindly, most people do not understand the meaning of Salvation, God's Salvation Plan, that is. It is said all that anyone needed to do to become saved was believe and have faith in Jesus. But, each and every conclusion that man arrives at as truth must be read in light of the whole Bible. For instance, Ro 3:10-12 reads:

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that
doeth good, no, not one.

God had declared that the heart of man is desperately wicked, who can know it?

If God's assessment of the human race is that NO ONE seeks after Him, how then can anyone say they have the ability to believe or have faith in Jesus? THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE! To believe or to have faith in Jesus is a work that man performs, and those that believe they have the ability to do such things negates what Jesus said in Jn 6:44. 1Th 1:3 has the same idea as Eph 2:9.

1Th 1:3 reads:

“Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father”.

Those who are proponents for “free will” actually have a “do it yourself gospel” which are prevalent in the churches of today (see, 2Co 11:14-15).

To enhance their arguments, they bring in words like “foreknowledge” or “foreknow” and “predestination” as if to make their case stronger, unaware that these words are actually beautiful to hear to the ears of those who truly know the meaning of God's salvation program. For example, Ge 4:1 reads:

“And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD”

I've underlined the word “knew” to emphasize that there exists an intimate relationship between the words “knew” and “love”, and between God and man. Thus the phrase could be understood this way, “And Adam “loved” Eve his wife: and she conceived”. Can we conclude that the word “know” or “knew” be translated as “love” which also mean to “experience”? Most certainly. This idea can also be seen and applied to the story of Joseph and Mary that we read about in Mt 1:25.

The example above is necessary to show how the word “foreknowledge” or “foreknow” is intimately related with “love”.

Time and time again I have stated that the Bible is a spiritual book and must therefore be interpreted/discerned spiritually. 1Co 2:14 reads:

“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness
unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned”.
Jesus spoke in parables also and without a parable He did not speak.

Mt 13:34
“All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake
he not unto them”.

Mr 4:34
“But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded
all things to his disciples.

A parable is an earthly story with a heavenly meaning.

Armed with the knowledge (no pun intended) we have seen above, here then is the true meaning of “foreknowledge” as prescribe/defined in Scripture:

GOD “FORELOVED” (FOREKNEW) ONLY THOSE HE HAD PLANNED TO SAVE, AND “PREDESTINATED” (ELECTED/CHOSE) THEM TO SALVATION BEFORE THE FONDATION OF THE WORLD.

Enjoyed the sharing, ie, thank you. Except I would have concluded with "God forknew and foreordained only those He knew would embrace the promise."

I'd rather be a robot than have brains and end up in damnation!

To God Be The Glory

Old Jack

 

[Floyd]

To all concerned I say this kindly, most people do not understand the meaning of Salvation, God's Salvation Plan, that is. It is said all that anyone needed to do to become saved was believe and have faith in Jesus. But, each and every conclusion that man arrives at as truth must be read in light of the whole Bible. For instance, Ro 3:10-12 reads:

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that
doeth good, no, not one.

God had declared that the heart of man is desperately wicked, who can know it?

If God's assessment of the human race is that NO ONE seeks after Him, how then can anyone say they have the ability to believe or have faith in Jesus? THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE! To believe or to have faith in Jesus is a work that man performs, and those that believe they have the ability to do such things negates what Jesus said in Jn 6:44. !Th 1:3 has the same idea as Eph 2:9.

1Th 1:3 reads:

“Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father”.

Those who are proponents for “free will” actually have a “do it yourself gospel” which are prevalent in the churches of today (see, 2Co 11:14-15).

To enhance their arguments, they bring in words like “foreknowledge” or “foreknow” and “predestination” as if to make their case stronger, unaware that these words are actually beautiful to hear to the ears of those who truly know the meaning of God's salvation program. For example, Ge 4:1 reads:

“And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD”

I've underlined the word “knew” to emphasize that there exists an intimate relationship between the words “knew” and “love”, and between God and man. Thus the phrase could be understood this way, “And Adam “loved” Eve his wife: and she conceived”. Can we conclude that the word “know” or “knew” be translated as “love” which also mean to “experience”? Most certainly. This idea can also be seen and applied to the story of Joseph and Mary that we read about in Mt 1:25.

The example above is necessary to show how the word “foreknowledge” or “foreknow” is intimately related with “love”.

Time and time again I have stated that the Bible is a spiritual book and must therefore be interpreted/discerned spiritually. 1Co 2:14 reads:

“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness
unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned”.

Jesus spoke in parables also and without a parable He did not speak.

Mt 13:34
“All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake
he not unto them”.

Mr 4:34
“But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded
all things to his disciples.

A parable is an earthly story with a heavenly meaning.

Armed with the knowledge (no pun intended) we have seen above, here then is the true meaning of “foreknowledge” as prescribe/defined in Scripture:

GOD “FORELOVED” (FOREKNEW) ONLY THOSE HE HAD PLANNED TO SAVE, AND “PREDESTINATED” (ELECTED/CHOSE) THEM TO SALVATION BEFORE THE FONDATION OF THE WORLD.

I'd rather be a robot than have brains and end up in damnation!

To God Be The Glory

To all concerned I say this kindly, most people do not understand the meaning of Salvation, God's Salvation Plan, that is. It is said all that anyone needed to do to become saved was believe and have faith in Jesus. But, each and every conclusion that man arrives at as truth must be read in light of the whole Bible. For instance, Ro 3:10-12 reads:

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that
doeth good, no, not one.

God had declared that the heart of man is desperately wicked, who can know it?

If God's assessment of the human race is that NO ONE seeks after Him, how then can anyone say they have the ability to believe or have faith in Jesus? THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE! To believe or to have faith in Jesus is a work that man performs, and those that believe they have the ability to do such things negates what Jesus said in Jn 6:44. 1Th 1:3 has the same idea as Eph 2:9.

1Th 1:3 reads:

“Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father”.

Those who are proponents for “free will” actually have a “do it yourself gospel” which are prevalent in the churches of today (see, 2Co 11:14-15).

To enhance their arguments, they bring in words like “foreknowledge” or “foreknow” and “predestination” as if to make their case stronger, unaware that these words are actually beautiful to hear to the ears of those who truly know the meaning of God's salvation program. For example, Ge 4:1 reads:

“And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD”

I've underlined the word “knew” to emphasize that there exists an intimate relationship between the words “knew” and “love”, and between God and man. Thus the phrase could be understood this way, “And Adam “loved” Eve his wife: and she conceived”. Can we conclude that the word “know” or “knew” be translated as “love” which also mean to “experience”? Most certainly. This idea can also be seen and applied to the story of Joseph and Mary that we read about in Mt 1:25.

The example above is necessary to show how the word “foreknowledge” or “foreknow” is intimately related with “love”.

Time and time again I have stated that the Bible is a spiritual book and must therefore be interpreted/discerned spiritually. 1Co 2:14 reads:

“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness
unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned”.
Jesus spoke in parables also and without a parable He did not speak.

Mt 13:34
“All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake
he not unto them”.

Mr 4:34
“But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded
all things to his disciples.

A parable is an earthly story with a heavenly meaning.

Armed with the knowledge (no pun intended) we have seen above, here then is the true meaning of “foreknowledge” as prescribe/defined in Scripture:

GOD “FORELOVED” (FOREKNEW) ONLY THOSE HE HAD PLANNED TO SAVE, AND “PREDESTINATED” (ELECTED/CHOSE) THEM TO SALVATION BEFORE THE FONDATION OF THE WORLD.

I'd rather be a robot than have brains and end up in damnation!

To God Be The Glory

This is extreme Calvinist Dogma!
Floyd.

[SIZE=28pt]Is Our “Free Will” Of Value, Or Is Everything Predestined?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]There is a powerful teaching abounding in Christendom, that all of us are “predestined” to be in one destination or another after death; often loosely termed “heaven or hell”.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]This teaching, which is a derivation of Calvin and others, states that our [/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]“[/SIZE][SIZE=18pt]freewill[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]”[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt] is a myth of the human mind, and that in the case of “life after death” all is set in stone![/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]The fact that Calvin did not make this statement, but that one of his pupils did, has not stopped the bandwagon! See:[/SIZE] [SIZE=16pt]Elect Calvin onwards; [/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]In the terminology of this "debate", the "Heaven destined" are called the "Elect", and the "Hell" destined are called "Reprobates". This controversy has been raging now for many hundreds of years, and was also fuelled by the "Reformation" of Protestantism against the Roman Catholic Church. At the same time and subsequently, many "Doctrines" were also being reviewed, one such being "Predestination"; and in the opinion of the writers, became extreme in their human definition, as opposed to what Almighty God's Word states. That state of affairs gelled into the various "Doctrines" that are propagated today in first Europe, and latterly worldwide. Many men (some in sincerity) made careers and names for themselves, which still resound today in Christendom![/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]The way out of the maze of men's conflicting opinions, is to turn to God's Word prayerfully, and to take note of what He says, particularly our Lord Christ Jesus. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]So, is [/SIZE][SIZE=18pt]freewill[/SIZE] [SIZE=16pt]real, or a figment of imagination?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]The answer is, [/SIZE][SIZE=18pt]it is real[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]![/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]As it is real, what is its purpose? Leaving aside the day to day experience, when choice (free will) is exercised, there is clearly a greater purpose for so great a God given facility.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]Using the Bible[/SIZE][SIZE=18pt] (as the source of all knowledge[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]) as opposed to the works of other men, we see that freewill was evident at the beginning of this Creation. It was clearly so important that one of the greatest of God's created beings called Satan, wanted to corrupt the “[/SIZE][SIZE=18pt]freewill[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]” decisions of Adam and Eve! The events are related below:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]We need to start at the beginning of the relationship between God, man, and woman. The first restriction, or command that God placed on Adam (Gen. 2:17), was regarding the “tree of the knowledge of good and evil”, and the prohibition of the eating of its fruit. God said that if Adam disobeyed, “thou shalt surely die”. This commandment was given to Adam, before Eve was created[/SIZE], and therefore was his responsibility.

[SIZE=16pt]Eve was then created from Adam’s flesh (Gen. 2:22), and was his responsibility. The Serpent [Heb. nachash,= the old Serpent, transformed as an angel of light], then approached Eve, and commented to her that God had given all fruit of the garden to be eaten. Eve agreed, but with the exception of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, and stated, “God hath said, >Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest[/SIZE] ye die<”. In these words, Eve misquoted and added to the original, (Gen. 2:16-17). The words “neither shall ye touch it” are not in the original, and the word “lest” is changed from the word “surely”. This may seem pedantic, but is crucial to the case, and the history of mankind from that point. Since that time, the changing and additions to the Word of God, together with the current disregard for It, have caused, and is causing the complete ruin of humankind! In the case of Eve’s distortion and addition, the use of “lest” (in case) implies a possibility, instead of the certainty of death, as the word “surely” (certainly) shows. Satan immediately confirms Eve’s suggestion, and states in Gen. 3:4, “Ye shall not surely die” (emphatic), and goes on to say in v5, that when they eat, they will be as Gods, and will have the knowledge of good and evil. Also in the same verse, Satan implies that God is holding back from them something which they should have! Eve then eats of the forbidden fruit, and gives it to her husband who is with her, and he also ate it, v6. In Gen. 3:9, God calls to Adam (not Eve) in the garden, which emphasises Adam’s position in God’s order, and his responsibility! Adam hid from God, due to the knowledge of his nakedness, and in v12 blames the woman, and by implication God, for his own lack of integrity, and lack of courage when needed, in not resisting Eve’s wishes! God then berated Eve, who blamed the Serpent.

[SIZE=16pt]So, Adam blamed Eve and God. Eve blamed the Serpent (Satan). Each one would not take responsibility for their actions, despite the fact of their free will! This has continued ever since, with many variations on the theme![/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]God then pronounced punishment on each. The Serpent is first, and interestingly there is no dialogue between the Serpent and God, as both already know their relative positions, since the rebellion of Satan! That is yet to be concluded in the events prophesied in the pages of Revelation.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]Eve is next, and in God’s words to her v15, is the beautiful prophecy of the Salvation in Christ, “It (Christ = the seed of the woman) shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise His heel”. In v16, the Lord increases the “sorrow” in conception, and childbirth, and “thy desire shall be subject to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee”. In today’s world, such a comment is totally unacceptable, even in some Bible believers. In some eastern religions, there is a titular acceptance. This is especially the case since the Women’s Liberation Movement. However, variations of human opinion do not change the inerrancy of the Word of God as we shall see later.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]Adam’s punishment is started with the words v17, ”Because thou has harkened unto the voice of thy wife”. Many men would say here that they have no choice! However leaving that behind, God is saying that he should not have paid heed to her, and should have easily remembered what God had said on the subject, which of course he did! God then pronounces the rest of the punishment, the cursed ground, the sorrow in the eating of it. In v8, the thorns and thistles, and the eating of the herb. In v19, the work of the body to bring forth the food, until returning to dust himself! All that because of disobedience![/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]Reminding ourselves at this stage that we are only concerned with God’s Word, and not with the many satanically inspired human arguments and opinions regarding the Bible, we revisit 2Tim. 3:16, and its expression of the sanctity, purity, and reliability of the Bible, and its use for doctrine, correction, and instruction.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]We know from Scripture that created beings, angels and humans have free will. As is shown throughout Scripture, that freewill is important to Almighty God. As we know from Scripture, Satan rebelled against God, and has ever since been trying to usurp and undermine all of God’s will for all His created creatures. Scripture says that Satan was the most magnificent being that God created. The word Satan is Hebrew, and means “an adversary, an enemy, an accuser”. He has other names which are related to Greek, and his role in events yet to be. Note that he is a “created” being, not “begotten”, as only Jesus has that designation! Before Satan became the “adversary”, his name was “Lucifer”, which means “Morning star”, and his fall from favour is described in Isaiah 14:12-15.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]There is much confusion and myth regarding Satan, starting in the Garden of Eden. He is there in Gen. 3:1, called a “Serpent”, from the Hebrew “nachash”, which means “to hiss, mutter, whisper, etc.”, which has been translated subsequently as “Serpent”. An allied Chaldean word means “bright”, which chimes with other Scriptural comment describing Satan as having a “glorious appearance”. In Isaiah 6:2-6, the Hebrew word “seraph” is used to describe “heavenly beings” as “burning bright, and elevated”. In Numbers 21:8, “saraph” is “fiery Serpent”. The words seraph and nachash are both used in Scripture to describe a Serpent and a glorious spirit being. In 2Cor. 11:3, Paul fears for the Corinthians, that they will be beguiled as Adam and Eve, and refers to the appearance of Satan on that occasion in 2Cor. 11-14, ("and no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light").[/SIZE]


[SIZE=16pt]So, when Satan beguiled Eve, he was magnificent to behold, as he spoke to her saying “surely thou wilt not die”, Gen. 3:4, and he has been saying it ever since, with the consequence that many humans will listen to him, and will go to their destruction! They will listen to Satan, even though they know the difference between good and evil, and are exercising their freewill in so doing.[/SIZE]


[SIZE=18pt]In summary[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt] of this brief description; Satan was the most beautiful of God’s created creatures. He became enchanted by his own beauty and power, and wanted/wants God’s position Ezek. 28. He is cast from favour, Isaiah 14:12. His name is changed after his rebellion to Satan, and he is allowed to try to stop trust and faith in God on earth, (Job). This process is still under way, and will not end until the events described in Rev. 20:2.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]All this is allowed by Almighty God at the present time and in to the future, to honour the freewill that He has given to Satan. The same principle of freewill [/SIZE]in all human kind is also underway until the culmination of the Age of Grace, and is part of the antitheses to Satan's rebellion against God. That freewill is not in itself the antitheses, but is embodied in the death sacrifice of Christ Jesus on the Cross at Calvary. The focus of the freewill of Humankind at the present time, is whether or not to trust Christ Jesus for the Salvation He offers, which is defined as complete absolution from their Sin nature, and their Sins committed in life.

[SIZE=16pt]In the Garden of Eden, God set up a situation to counter Satan’s rebellion, and freewill[/SIZE] [SIZE=16pt]is at the core of that plan! What many people do not know is that all of His heavenly creation is watching the outcome of this universal struggle, (Eph. 3:10), and that they too have freewill! We know from Revelation that Satan has had great success in heaven, and that one third of the angels of heaven have converted to him by their freewill[/SIZE]! He has been working simultaneously on earth to capture humans in the same way! There is to be a time, some think soon, when Satan will be cast to Earth for a short time, and that time will be terrible for Earth's inhabitants. In the last three and one half years of that time, it is probable that all earth's inhabitants will be required to acknowledge the ruler, (The Antichrist), by receiving his mark on their hand or forehead! That will be a "freewill" decision. (there is some uncertainty as to whether Israel only is involved or the Nations of the world also).
[SIZE=16pt]Those that by their "freewill" allow themselves to be thus marked, will eventually join Satan and his angels in the "Lake of Fire", (Rev. 20:15).[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]Satan has had, is having, great success in heaven, converting angels to his side, as they exercise their "freewill".[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]He also wants the nation of Israel to fail completely, so they also have been the focus of his special attentions, and by their "freewill[/SIZE]", they failed to obey God, or recognise their Messiah, Christ Jesus. So they were "set to one side" (Lo-Ammi) in AD70 approx.
[SIZE=16pt]Since Acts 28, the nations of the world are in Satan's sights, as they have been “turned to” by the Holy Spirit (Acts 28:25-28) with the Gospel of Christ Crucified! See: [/SIZE] [SIZE=16pt]Free will:[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt] They (the nations) now have the opportunity to exercise their "freewill", to accept or reject Christ Jesus![/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]See: [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]The Call of God:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]So, we have seen from the above in Scripture (God’s Word, as opposed to man's interpretation), that freewill[/SIZE] [SIZE=16pt]is so important, that Satan wants control of it via perverted Scripture! That being the case, he (Satan) wants control of people by perverting the Bible's Words. This he does in many ways. In the past by using men with reputations for powerful speaking, and or writing, and the list of those men of the past is too long to tabulate here. In the present, by the same methods![/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]It is interesting to note the comment of a Christ-One in the past. "Do not look for Satan in Soho, but in the Pulpit"![/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]Constantine and Helena had control for many centuries via the "Holy Roman Empire". Later, after Martin Luther, opinions which caused/cause divisions in "doctrine" were propounded as said, by many "learned" men, such as Calvin, Arminian, Knox etc. Bearing in mind the above Link regarding Calvin, (which shows that he did not propose the thesis which bears his name).[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]These "Doctrines" in particular still cause great confusion with people, which in turn lead to heartache for those not willing or able to resist strong Pastors or speakers who promise "damnation" if they are not obeyed or adhered to![/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]When the claims of these doctrines are examined, there are parts which ring true to Scripture, and some that don't. They are so constructed that they oppose! This is seized upon and used by strong leaders, and the gullible and weak are consumed by both the teaching, and the men.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Satan through men, still wants to control people's minds and hearts, and also as an added benefit to him, their Bank balance! [/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]Some commentators say that the fact that Christ’s people, (His Body), are known before the “overthrow” (mistranslated “foundation”) of the world, means that they do not have a choice in the matter! They take their mistaken opinion from Eph. 1:4, and 1Peter 1:20, and elsewhere in Scripture.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]It is fact that Christ Jesus was “foreknown”, and as such, that the many parts of His Body are therefore “foreknown”. However, the individual parts still have to exercise their God given “[/SIZE][SIZE=18pt]freewill[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]”[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt] to enter the [/SIZE][SIZE=18pt]Body[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt], it’s just the fact that God “[/SIZE][SIZE=18pt]foreknew[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]”[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt] those that would![/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]In the 1Peter 1:20 reference, the point is made clear, as it clearly states that it is Christ Jesus who is “foreordained”, “and is made manifest for you”![/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]Bearing in mind what we have just read above from Eden onwards, the fact of the "[/SIZE][SIZE=18pt]freewill[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]" [/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]of all people is again emphasised in one of the OT Statements of Almighty God. The basic principle is recorded in [/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]Isa. 45:22-23, [/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]and those Words have meaning for all people![/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]"Look unto Me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am GOD, there is none else."[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Why would God, who took on the form of Christ Jesus to Create, ASK His created people to turn to Him, and have salvation, if He had already fixed it in stone that they were "for heaven or hell"? The simple answer is that He had not! He had left in place for the people that now inhabit planet earth the choice to take Him at His Word, or to reject Him, and choose destruction! This fact shows the importance of "[/SIZE][SIZE=18pt]freewill[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]", and its value to our Creator God, now, and in Eternity!![/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]The question is often asked, what about all those people that have never heard of Jesus The Christ? What about the hidden and unknown Tribes in remote parts of the world? Jesus has been known of only since AD 30, in the sense of the Redeemer; and since then, the onus has been on people to accept Him or reject Him, as the Jews have shown! However; God has been evident in all creation since Creation, and the heart of every individual who has ever lived is known to God Almighty. That means that when the Great Adjudication of the Great White Throne takes place at the end of the Millennial Reign, the condition of the individual heart towards God will be the deciding factor. Those that revere God, will de-facto revere Christ Jesus; as He was in place before the "foundation" (overthrow) of the world! This is substantiated by Romans 1:20; "for the invisible things of Him from the Creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse". Which leaves no person able to excuse themselves![/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]One of the great myths, and therefore confusions used by false Calvinists teachers, is that of the definition of "works". They say that any work by the individual to seek and find the Truth of Jesus the Christ, is works! What a travesty of interpretation and intellect! They use Eph. 2:8-10 as their foundational Text, and construe it wrongly! In context, these verses clearly state that the "work" refers to Christ's on the Calvary Cross, and that it cannot be added to, or diminished. It is the ultimate "finished work"![/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]Returning to freewill,[/SIZE] [SIZE=16pt]Almighty God expects people to use their minds, and put effort into sorting out the Truth from the myriad pagan and false teachings, which requires effort (work) and the use of that great facility,[/SIZE] [SIZE=16pt]freewill![/SIZE] [SIZE=16pt]Christ Himself said when asked what the works of God are; "the works of God are, that you believe in Him who He has sent", (John 6:28-29)![/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]God Almighty knows the failure of the world's peoples; He above all knows the propensity to failure of us all! As Almighty God, He, because of His Love for us made a way out in His Son (His only begotten), on the Calvary Cross, that whosoever should believe on Him (Jesus the Christ) will be saved, and have eternal life; John 3:16.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]He also knows the wiles and ways of Satan, and the simplicity of the human mind. For that reason He made the way easy, not hide bound with complex theology and rules, [/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]just simple "faith" in the Crucified Jesus,[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt] which we decide![/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]The "work" is done by Jesus, the "Offer" is made by the Father [/SIZE]to the world's people, we decide with our "freewill"!

[SIZE=16pt]So we see that “freewill” is crucial in life, to the destination of people after they die, and that all teaching that states otherwise is of the great enemy Satan! We have freewill before we find Christ, also after, which is for Eternal purpose![/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]In Scripture, there are a number of texts that show that God has pleasure in those that seek after Him; Zeph. 2:3, Dan. 10:12, Heb. 11:6, Acts 17:27. These show that "working" towards knowing God is pleasurable to Him, and not as some Calvinists say and teach,[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt] that it is a "works based activity", which is not allowed in their "rules"![/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]There is also the implication in that false teaching that people “have no choice”, but that all is "predestined" that Satan had no choice but to rebel against God,[/SIZE] [SIZE=16pt]and that he had no "freewill"! That is clearly a lie, as the gift of freewill was his also![/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]There will however still be those that through their own weaknesses, and inability to stand for Truth, sit on the back of one or other of the "Doctrines", instead of the Word of God, The Bible, and have simple trust in Christ Jesus![/SIZE]

 

[shturt678]

Thank you folks for caring!

Jun2u does go too far one way, yet brother Floyd you go too far the other way, ie, cannot we have a balanced interpretation - all have an "enslaved-will" ???

Old balanced Jack

 

[RANDOR]

galvanist........now isn't that another mans idea teaching man?

 

[Nomad]

galvanist........now isn't that another mans idea teaching man?

What is "galvanist?" Do you mean "Calvinist"?

 

[RANDOR]

What is "galvanist?" Do you mean "Calvinist"?

Thank you for correcting my spelling.

 

[Floyd]

Thank you folks for caring!

Jun2u does go too far one way, yet brother Floyd you go too far the other way, ie, cannot we have a balanced interpretation - all have an "enslaved-will" ???

Old balanced Jack

You need to forget that you are a "retired" teacher.
I don't put up the Word to have it marked; but to try to change the thinking of people (like you) or at least to get them to open their minds!
Your comments have become more that way since we started communicating.
I have accepted that we "will not agree" ; but I state openly; that in scripture their in not a "balance" as you call it above; but their is Truth, and non-Truth!
Floyd.

 

[logabe]

This is extreme Calvinist Dogma!
Floyd.

The question is... how free is our will? Surely we wouldn't be here if God would
have ask us... do we want to go to the earth and live in the canal mind all of our
lives? I think everyone's free will would have definitely said NO!!!

We are here because it was God's Will not ours (Rom. 8:20).

20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly,
but because of Him who subjected it, in hope

As we grow in grace we become accountable for the things we know, and we have to
to make choices according to the will of God. In other words, our wills become God's
will for our lives.

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

 

[Floyd]

The question is... how free is our will? Surely we wouldn't be here if God would
have ask us... do we want to go to the earth and live in the canal mind all of our
lives? I think everyone's free will would have definitely said NO!!!

We are here because it was God's Will not ours (Rom. 8:20).

20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly,
but because of Him who subjected it, in hope

As we grow in grace we become accountable for the things we know, and we have to
to make choices according to the will of God. In other words, our wills become God's
will for our lives.

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

Are you saying that because we are here; we do not have to make freewill decisions?
Please be clear!
Floyd.

 

[Jun2u]

Thanks to Logabe, I think I see the confusion here.

My contention was never about trivial things like making everyday freewill decisions that life brings about, rather my contention was that man in his state is incapable to make freewill decisions for God after the Fall.

Hence, he does not have the ability to seek after God (Ro. 3:10-12), and if he does seek after God it is only because God is “drawing” him (Jn 6:44).

Salvation is of God and His alone, and we do not enter into it. He alone did all the work to save His elect! Man cannot make ANY kind of contributions towards his salvation, not one iota. Because man is dead, Dead in his sins, that is.

I hope this clarifies things.


Old Jack

I will not compromise the Word of God.

To God Be The Glory

 

[Floyd]

Thanks to Logabe, I think I see the confusion here.

My contention was never about trivial things like making everyday freewill decisions that life brings about, rather my contention was that man in his state is incapable to make freewill decisions for God after the Fall.

Hence, he does not have the ability to seek after God (Ro. 3:10-12), and if he does seek after God it is only because God is “drawing” him (Jn 6:44).

Salvation is of God and His alone, and we do not enter into it. He alone did all the work to save His elect! Man cannot make ANY kind of contributions towards his salvation, not one iota. Because man is dead, Dead in his sins, that is.

I hope this clarifies things.


Old Jack

I will not compromise the Word of God.

To God Be The Glory

You seem to be very confused; who here has said they "contribute"?
Please speak clearly; not in double talk!
Floyd.

 

[shturt678]

You need to forget that you are a "retired" teacher.
I don't put up the Word to have it marked; but to try to change the thinking of people (like you) or at least to get them to open their minds!
Your comments have become more that way since we started communicating.
I have accepted that we "will not agree" ; but I state openly; that in scripture their in not a "balance" as you call it above; but their is Truth, and non-Truth!
Floyd.

You forget rules #1 - #10, "the more others are not happy with me, the more I agape them." As a close Christian brother that you have become, I must share Eph.1:11: God's predestination act tallies with this governing and normative purpose, and He's the One who ever works (durative present participle) "all the things" that His purpose covers according to the counsel of what He wills. His purpose cannot fail of realization, for there's never a thing that God does not work in concord with the counsel of His will. The lot God has accorded us, you and I my close brother, and which we now enjoy (our adoption, Eph.1:5) must be viewed in this blessed light.

But to stress only the freedom and the determinate of the "purpose" is to go astray. Again, Calvin ahs carried this idea to its extreme. Now brother Floyd if you would have been able to give me a good Christian hug earlier, I could have spared you all this pain where you are forced to agree to disagree.

Even in the case of men "purpose" involves certain motives, and these determine the purposing itself and the aims and the objects intended to be realized brother Floyd. So God's purpose emanates from his agape and His charis, and is thus directed to man's salvation. Man's purpose often fails as in "Free-will," God's never does so. God's "purpose" is His free determination which springs from His agape and grace to effect salvation in accord with this agape and grace redounding man's salvation with man's "Enslaved-will."

Old Jack's opinion only

 

[Floyd]

You forget rules #1 - #10, "the more others are not happy with me, the more I agape them." As a close Christian brother that you have become, I must share Eph.1:11: God's predestination act tallies with this governing and normative purpose, and He's the One who ever works (durative present participle) "all the things" that His purpose covers according to the counsel of what He wills. His purpose cannot fail of realization, for there's never a thing that God does not work in concord with the counsel of His will. The lot God has accorded us, you and I my close brother, and which we now enjoy (our adoption, Eph.1:5) must be viewed in this blessed light.

But to stress only the freedom and the determinate of the "purpose" is to go astray. Again, Calvin ahs carried this idea to its extreme. Now brother Floyd if you would have been able to give me a good Christian hug earlier, I could have spared you all this pain where you are forced to agree to disagree.

Even in the case of men "purpose" involves certain motives, and these determine the purposing itself and the aims and the objects intended to be realized brother Floyd. So God's purpose emanates from his agape and His charis, and is thus directed to man's salvation. Man's purpose often fails as in "Free-will," God's never does so. God's "purpose" is His free determination which springs from His agape and grace to effect salvation in accord with this agape and grace redounding man's salvation with man's "Enslaved-will."

Old Jack's opinion only

[SIZE=28pt]The Elect[/SIZE] [SIZE=28pt]Calvin Onwards[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]This is a very controversial subject in Christendom. The classical definition is accepted by some as that of John Calvin, the well-known theologian, and one of the important Protestant reformers of the 16th century. In fact there is considerable doubt as to whether Calvin was in fact the father of the classical definition, as it seems to have emerged after his death in AD 1564 under the influence of Theodore Beza. In fact Calvin himself refused to dogmatically conclude what many of his fellows and students readily accepted. But, what Calvin formally refused to confirm was embodied eventually in the Articles of the Synod of Dort (AD 1618-19). This definition holds that “Christ died only for the elect (chosen).” What this means in effect is that only some people are “elected” to be saved, which to the writers does not seem to conform to the whole of Scripture, and especially to the New Testament! It is however ironic that Calvin is now chained to that definition, in what became known as the “Calvin Secondary Form,” but was in fact under the force of Beza! Calvin is however on record as stating before his death that “election is related to the Person and Work of Christ”.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]A further error is propagated by many Protestant groups, re. the position in God's Plan of Salvation for Israel. Many groups teach that Israel is displaced by God for ever, and the Church has taken its place. That is not so, and shows a lack of knowledge of the Bible, see: Replacement Theology[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]We know from the Holy Spirit inspired writings in Scripture, that Christ’s death was for the whole world, (John 3:16), but only for those in the world that will accept the great Sacrifice of Christ’s, not for those that refuse it! What that means in effect, is that the most base sinner, and even apparently necromancers, can be saved and have eternal life, but only while the offer is current, and it will be withdrawn at some stage in the future, some think soon![/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]Returning to “election”, Calvin’s latter statement chimes true to Scripture, as it states in Luke 23:35, that Jesus was the “chosen”, or "Anointed" of God. A few of the many other ref. are; Matt.16:16, Luke 4:41, Luke 24:26, Acts 4:27 and Acts 10:38, as Messiah or Christ carry the same meaning! The Jews knew (know) the Old Testament well, (albeit the Pharisaic, "Orthodox" Jews of today, through the "filter" of their later "Writings", called by some "Wisdom"). However, in Biblical Judaism, the prophecies of Messiah are numerous. The Messiah, for whom the "Orthodox" Jews are still looking, is the “chosen” one, “the elect of God!” This makes clear that it is Christ who is elect, not people! This interpretation was also held by Dr. Robert Anderson, who spoke on the subject at the AD 1895 Keswick Convention. Those that accept Christ’s sacrifice in truth “by propitiation” are in the Beloved, and are therefore “elect!” This great truth allows for untold numbers to be saved, and for the harvest for God Almighty to be very great! This also shows the great wisdom of our Great God, in the “fall” in Eden being the beginning of a retrieval of so many souls, and also the beginning of the downfall of the great enemy Satan, whose end is yet to be played out, as shown in Revelation![/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]It is the great rebellion of Satan (using his freewill), at some time in the distant past, that is the originator of the God given Provision of Salvation through the death of Jesus, The Christ, at Calvary! His shed Blood Covers as many people as will receive it (by using their freewill); as per the sacrifice of the Passover Lamb in Egypt, for the children of Israel; for those that would allow themselves to be Covered by the Paschal Lamb[/SIZE] (those that didn't, died)!

[SIZE=16pt]Satan's perversion of God's Word to Adam, and Eve's "fall" followed by Adam, was as a result of accepting the changed Words of God! This process is still current, and people must be wary of the many "teachers", "preachers", and any person who would change or interpret Scripture in any way which makes the straightforward message of trust in Christ for Eternal Life;[/SIZE] hard to understand, by small changes to words!

[SIZE=16pt]A common teaching of some Calvinists, is that only God decides who will be "saved"! That any form of "seeking" is useless, because all is determined many "Ages" ago! Some go as far as to say, "that even turning to God, seeking Him, finding Him in Christ, and making the decision to accept Him as Lord and Saviour"; is a form of work; and therefore invalid"! They are usually quite arrogant and aggressive in their statements, and extremely circular in their arguments, that even they become confused, and will contradict themselves on occasions! All of this is a usual sign of Satan's control in their minds as regards the Truth of Christ's Love for the world's peoples! They go as far as to say that if a person "accepts" Jesus as Saviour, their Salvation is invalid, because they "accepted", which they say is work![/SIZE] They also confuse the "Sovereignty" of God, stating that because the individual "accepted", they "usurped" God's Sovereignty; instead of realising that God is Sovereign over all! These are based on the Calvinist Concept of "Limited Election", which is also a mistaken concept, based on "only those favoured" being called! In these Definitions, the extreme Calvinist is using the method of the "Usurper" of the Garden of Eden, whose miss-use of the Words of God, led to the Fall.
[SIZE=16pt]A favourite method of persuasion is to quote passages in the New Testament which seem to confirm their case. These are usually taken out of context, or are given a "new context" by the speaker, with their own interpretation of what God meant! Here we must remember Eve in the Garden of Eden![/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]The following Links give some comments and clarity on this type of teaching:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]The Call of God:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Is Our Freewill Of Value Or Is Everything Predestined?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Calvinist "Works" Teaching [/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]Many Calvinists also believe that they "are the future Israel" of prophecy, which is in direct conflict with God's Word re. Israel![/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]The position of the Jews in Scripture, Old and New Testaments.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]A further element to the controversy of the “elect”, is that there is more than one group of elected peoples. This is where the exhortation by the great Apostle Paul is to be heeded and used (2Tim. 2:15). In this statement, Paul shows that the Bible must be properly “divided”, and that it must be “worked” at! A simple example of that is to understand that which applies to Christians (the true Body of Christ), does not apply to the unfortunates of Rev. 22, who are excluded from the Tree of Life! This extreme example is used only to illustrate the care that is needed in reading and understanding the context. The two main groups called the “elect” in Scripture are the Jews, and Christians (the true Body of Christ). It is essential for understanding to clearly differentiate all cases, to be able to understand what is being said, and to whom! In the case of the Jewish election, these are documented in many O.T. Scriptures, some of which are as follows. Gen.12:2-3, 7, Gen.13:14-17, Gen.15:5-6, 18-21, Gen.17:4-10, 21, Gen. 21:12-13. In Gal. 3:16, the NT also refers to “the promised seed,” that of Eden! The Jewish promised “election”, was at the beginning unconditional, and still is, that will be played out in future events! Conditions were not applied until Mount Sinai, when God wanted His people to perform a task of witness for Him to the surrounding nations, as to Him being the only True God! Their failure and refusal eventually led to God’s Glory leaving the Temple in Jerusalem, and their exile in Babylon! Under Ezra and Nehemiah, God re-established His people, but His “Shekina” did not return to the new Temple. As per the prophecies of Daniel, and other O.T. prophets, Jesus was born, and as the “Christ” (Greek for Hebrew Messiah) and the “chosen” (elect) of God, was offered to the Jews for redemption. As Acts 28:26-27, sadly records, they finally refused Jesus as Christ, and shortly after they were rejected by God (temporarily), and made “Lo-ammi” (not my people), and the offer of salvation has been held out to the nations (Gentiles) ever since, Acts 28:28![/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]This fact of temporary rejection of the Jews, and the offer being made available to the Gentiles, created the potential for the “elect” of the Body of Christ, and as stated is the second grouping of “elect” peoples. For this reason great care must be taken to ascertain which grouping of “elect” peoples are referred to in Scripture passages. An example of this is a much misunderstood passage in Matt. 24:24. The reference there to the “elect” is to the writers clearly referring to “the elect of Israel,” as the Body of Christ has possibly been removed from the earth, and Israel are re-adopted, (Ammi, My people again)![/SIZE]

 

[Nomad]

[SIZE=28pt]The Elect[/SIZE] [SIZE=28pt]Calvin Onwards[/SIZE] [SIZE=16pt]This is a very controversial subject in Christendom. The classical definition is accepted by some as that of John Calvin, the well-known theologian, and one of the important Protestant reformers of the 16th century. In fact there is considerable doubt as to whether Calvin was in fact the father of the classical definition, as it seems to have emerged after his death in AD 1564 under the influence of Theodore Beza. In fact Calvin himself refused to dogmatically conclude what many of his fellows and students readily accepted. But, what Calvin formally refused to confirm was embodied eventually in the Articles of the Synod of Dort (AD 1618-19). This definition holds that “Christ died only for the elect (chosen).” What this means in effect is that only some people are “elected” to be saved, which to the writers does not seem to conform to the whole of Scripture, and especially to the New Testament! It is however ironic that Calvin is now chained to that definition, in what became known as the “Calvin Secondary Form,” but was in fact under the force of Beza! Calvin is however on record as stating before his death that “election is related to the Person and Work of Christ”.[/SIZE]

The notion that Calvin did not believe in Limited Atonement or Particular Redemption is easily refuted. Not only does he stress the particular intent of Christ's death in his New Testament commentaries, he makes a very clear statement to that effect in his response to Lutheran theologian Tilemann Heshusius regarding the Lord's Supper.

"I should like to know how the wicked can eat the flesh of Christ which was not crucified for them? and how they can drink the blood which was not shed to expiate their sins?"

- John Calvin, Tracts & Letters, Tilemann Heshusius http://www.godrules.net/library/calvin/calvin.htm

 

[RANDOR]

I don't know if you are a Calvinist or against it...forgive me I couldn't quite tell with your post.

My 2 cents...........on all so called followings, teachings or religions for that matter...

who needs them?.........I mean really.................if ya have Jesus...isn't He the top of all others. I mean if you have been forgiven of all your sins why would you spend 1 second in someone elses teachings?

I guess when you have a personal relationship with Christ...you have the real deal.
And the stinch of anything else which is not of Him....is really rough on the nose :)

Many have and many will and many are........studying their way to hell...
Then that last breath is released.......and Jesus says...who might you be?

I could tell you everything about a certain celebrity....see....cause I'm a fan....and that's all I am.

Lets see if we can borrow that car that was in (Back to the Future)...lets go and meet Jesus...
We will come away and enter back into 2014....and both realize....Jesus is the same today...nothing has changed.....only man's silly thoughts of Him.....and when you haven't met your savior personally....and I do mean tangible....you are only left with thoughts...and being carnal.........the thoughts...of course will also be.

 

[StanJ]

The notion that Calvin did not believe in Limited Atonement or Particular Redemption is easily refuted. Not only does he stress the particular intent of Christ's death in his New Testament commentaries, he makes a very clear statement to that effect in his response to Lutheran theologian Tilemann Heshusius regarding the Lord's Supper.

"I should like to know how the wicked can eat the flesh of Christ which was not crucified for them? and how they can drink the blood which was not shed to expiate their sins?"

- John Calvin, Tracts & Letters, Tilemann Heshusius http://www.godrules.net/library/calvin/calvin.htm

My issue with this quote from Cauvin would be that he actually brought along the belief in transubstantiation, which the RCC and Lutheran church supports, but NOT many modern day Calvinists. This quote also seems to impart the POV that communion is essential for maintaining our salvation.

IMO, it is best for us to try and understand what God's Word say to us today instead of arguing over or defending men's opinions from several centuries ago.