Free Will and Hell

[APAK]

well, would that one be saying "i know what Yah wants?"
maybe, i dunno

Byrd...God moves the heart and then the mind....this movement generally is not by speaking any national language into our minds, even though that can occur via his proxies or spokespersons..... his Son and the angels. This invisible movement of YHWH is electrifying at times without any words spoken....you just know it happened somehow and you are aware it happened....cannot be explained..Blessings....APAK

 

[bbyrd009]

Byrd...God moves the heart and then the mind....this movement generally is not by speaking any national language into our minds, even though that can occur via his proxies or spokespersons..... his Son and the angels. This invisible movement of YHWH is electrifying at times without any words spoken....you just know it happened somehow and you are aware it happened....cannot be explained..Blessings....APAK

yes, ty

so, i mean dont get me wrong ok, sounds really good and all, but the heart is deceptive, above all, and dont let Him speak to us again, or we will die so i mean how would one know whether or not that was Yah? The invisible movement of satan is electrifying at times too, right; you just "know," you say? No offense but what makes you any diff from these guys? ty

Jesus replied, "You dont understand what I am doing now..."
what makes you any diff from them?

 

[amadeus]

well, would that one be saying "i know what Yah wants?"
maybe, i dunno

In step with Him must we know more than where to put our foot for that next step? How much more should any person know of what Yah wants than He wants us to take that next step as He directs?
Why do you suppose I come back to this verse so often?

O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." Jerem 10:24

 

[RainAndIceCream]

First of all in this threat I argue as if the bible was true, althought I have my problem with it.
I'm very confused by myself and the bible. The crux of my headache is;
If God wanted humans to have free will and adore God out of own volution, why should humans fear hell?

Now I know this sounds wack, but bear with me. From what I've read in the bible and heard from christians God wants Humans to love him without ulterior motive. They shouldn't praise him out of fear. But at the same time most of those christians also believed that hell is ultimate punishment for abandoning God- Lake of fire and man eating bugs all inclusive-. Obviously most of the people I've spoken to feared this punishment and argued it'll be better to believe in God just in case hell exists.
-But isn't this a contradiction? One wouldn't be a true christian if they praised God out of fear. And also if God wanted us to have a free choice, woulnd't it mean he isn't allowed to make hell more deadly than it's without divine interference. The same wayone won't says it's a free choice if somebody held a gun to your head, just replace the gun with infinite torment by divine verdict.
So a more reasonable interpretation of hell would be a place without God, were Humans are about equaly evil as currently on earth, given on earth there aren't enough christians to make a difference. So if God wanted us to be truly free, humans would actualy be able to live in hell.

Of course humans would first have to deal with all of the worst people who have existed and the devil, but even evil people are rational and capable to stricke a deal between eachother, allowing an existence about as good, as we currently have. Also all biblical imagery of hell would be caused by actions of humans or Satan.
I'm by no way recommending going to hell, just stating it wouldn't as bad as most people think.
​

Does any of this make sense???
If not, why and what part of my deduction is wrong? Bible quotes much apprecheated:)

Hello SIH, I too am new to this community. Welcome. :) And God bless you.

The topic of Hell is likely found in every Christian discussion forum. It can be confusing to consider a sovereign God that predestined all things according to his will and plan and due to his zeal for his own glory, lots of scripture excerpted there, I apologize for not entering where they are found, would open a place of great suffering initially intended to receive Satan and his angels, to humans.

It is my hope that you consider seeking what I think is a fine study that provides insight, supported by scripture, to give you an answer that may quell the confusion. Any search engine should provide you the link: The study title: "The Lake of Fire and Brimstone by Fred Kenison".

God's peace be with you.

 

[Timtofly]

yes, ty

so, i mean dont get me wrong ok, sounds really good and all, but the heart is deceptive, above all, and dont let Him speak to us again, or we will die so i mean how would one know whether or not that was Yah? The invisible movement of satan is electrifying at times too, right; you just "know," you say? No offense but what makes you any diff from these guys? ty
Jesus replied, "You dont understand what I am doing now..."
what makes you any diff from them?

Why look for God in other's lives? Hopefully they are not a mirror of your own condition. It was easier to see a difference in people's lives in the 1st century. It was probably easier 60 years ago. It is not easy today.

All we can do today is listen to God in our own lives. The Holy Spirit lets us know. If we have turned off the Holy Spirit, only repentance of all sin, even self righteousness, will turn that fire back on. That fire that burns up all the nonsense and allows only truth to remain.

For all those deceived with a false spirit. If they are offended, they will be the biggest hypocritical voice of objection to the truth. If one starts objecting to verses quoted from the Bible, and can see their objections, there may be hope.

 

[bbyrd009]

Why look for God in other's lives?

didnt occur to me that thats what we were doing tbh; my response was mostly in remembrance that satan can quicken us too, the first time we indulged in lust, stuff like that, "if loving you is wrong..."

Hopefully they are not a mirror of your own condition.

hmm well not sure which "they" we might be talking about there, maybe im still warming up to the subject change :)

It was easier to see a difference in people's lives in the 1st century. It was probably easier 60 years ago. It is not easy today.

difference in what way? Maybe i need to read further down?

All we can do today is listen to God in our own lives.

ha well i should maybe ask for a rephrase there Tim, definitive statements kinda throw me now, i mean i think i get your drift there, like "the best we can hope to do is..." (i hope), but see the way you put it now i can argue, see, bc i bet a good chunk of us all we can do today is listen to satan, who after all appears as an angel of light right.

I mean wadr you have extracted Rapture from harpazo, something our xlators dont even do, but man it sure sounded good huh? "If loving you is wrooong, i don wanna be right" is what im getting for a return right now, wadr

The Holy Spirit lets us know. If we have turned off the Holy Spirit, only repentance of all sin, even self righteousness, will turn that fire back on. That fire that burns up all the nonsense and allows only truth to remain.

hmm. i dunno. seems like when im being selfish or codependent is maybe when i hear the Spirit, and no offense but anyone tells me that they "have repented from all sin," im running the other way.

Who defines "sin" anyway, Tim? Isnt it self-righteous to imagine we could do so objectively? Is every sin for me a sin for you?

That fire that burns up all the nonsense and allows only truth to remain.

"Rapture" is extracted from a different root, Tim, as any Bsearch will inform us

For all those deceived with a false spirit. If they are offended, they will be the biggest hypocritical voice of objection to the truth.

ok, ty. Guess we'll see :)

If one starts objecting to verses quoted from the Bible, and can see their objections, there may be hope.

um ok, dunno how someone objecting could not see their objections...so maybe the sense you meant that in will manifest after another cup of joe!

 

[amadeus]

Why look for God in other's lives? Hopefully they are not a mirror of your own condition. It was easier to see a difference in people's lives in the 1st century. It was probably easier 60 years ago. It is not easy today.

It may well be sometimes that what we see in the life of another is Jesus. What does Paul mean here?

"Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you?
Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshly tables of the heart." II Cor 3:1-3

Why would it have been easier to see a difference in people's live in the 1st century? What did they have that we do not? Jesus? The 12 named as apostles walked with the man of flesh, Jesus for more than 3 years, yet at the end of his life, one betrayed him and 11 ran away fearful for their own lives. Did anyone in Acts chapter 2 receive more from God than we are able to receive today?

As for 60 years ago, well I was here aged about 16 so why would you think it was easier? I do remember some things about that period of time.

It has always been easy if a person walked correctly and it has always been difficult if a person walked incorrectly. Jesus describes the easy way here:

"Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light." Matt 11:28-30

 

[Timtofly]

didnt occur to me that thats what we were doing tbh; my response was mostly in remembrance that satan can quicken us too, the first time we indulged in lust, stuff like that, "if loving you is wrong..."

hmm well not sure which "they" we might be talking about there, maybe im still warming up to the subject change :)

difference in what way? Maybe i need to read further down?
ha well i should maybe ask for a rephrase there Tim, definitive statements kinda throw me now, i mean i think i get your drift there, like "the best we can hope to do is..." (i hope), but see the way you put it now i can argue, see, bc i bet a good chunk of us all we can do today is listen to satan, who after all appears as an angel of light right.

I mean wadr you have extracted Rapture from harpazo, something our xlators dont even do, but man it sure sounded good huh? "If loving you is wrooong, i don wanna be right" is what im getting for a return right now, wadr

hmm. i dunno. seems like when im being selfish or codependent is maybe when i hear the Spirit, and no offense but anyone tells me that they "have repented from all sin," im running the other way.

Who defines "sin" anyway, Tim? Isnt it self-righteous to imagine we could do so objectively? Is every sin for me a sin for you?

"Rapture" is extracted from a different root, Tim, as any Bsearch will inform us
ok, ty. Guess we'll see :)
um ok, dunno how someone objecting could not see their objections...so maybe the sense you meant that in will manifest after another cup of joe!

No subject change, we still can choose. Nothing set in stone, unless you do work with cement. But then that takes big equipment and pain to break up. I am sure you know the truth. Objections may grow weary, but let truth shine bright.

 

[Timtofly]

It may well be sometimes that what we see in the life of another is Jesus. What does Paul mean here?

"Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you?
Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshly tables of the heart." II Cor 3:1-3

Why would it have been easier to see a difference in people's live in the 1st century? What did they have that we do not? Jesus? The 12 named as apostles walked with the man of flesh, Jesus for more than 3 years, yet at the end of his life, one betrayed him and 11 ran away fearful for their own lives. Did anyone in Acts chapter 2 receive more from God than we are able to receive today?

As for 60 years ago, well I was here aged about 16 so why would you think it was easier? I do remember some things about that period of time.

It has always been easy if a person walked correctly and it has always been difficult if a person walked incorrectly. Jesus describes the easy way here:

"Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light." Matt 11:28-30

Explain the difference between rights and that cartoon in the post I quoted. Then you will see the lines blurred in what makes a difference between sin and human rights.

If you do not think that human rights are not being preached today, then that was not a double negative.

Once a government grants human rights there is no longer liberty, nor the ability to live one's conscious without breaking the law. Then you get more people wanting their rights to counteract other people's rights.

Paul clearly states in Romans 1, sin is in the past and it was clear what that sin was. Now sin is just another right. Now we are in the spot, that evil is good, and good is now evil.

 

[amadeus]

Explain the difference between rights and that cartoon in the post I quoted. Then you will see the lines blurred in what makes a difference between sin and human rights.

If you do not think that human rights are not being preached today, then that was not a double negative.

Once a government grants human rights there is no longer liberty, nor the ability to live one's conscious without breaking the law. Then you get more people wanting their rights to counteract other people's rights.

Paul clearly states in Romans 1, sin is in the past and it was clear what that sin was. Now sin is just another right. Now we are in the spot, that evil is good, and good is now evil.

I am sorry but your post is confusing considering what I posted which was only in response to the first paragraph of your post #65. You are bringing up other issues which I did not address. If you want a response you'll have to clarify where you are coming from and what it is you want. Pardon me, but I don't have a clue.

 

[Timtofly]

I am sorry but your post is confusing considering what I posted which was only in response to the first paragraph of your post #65. You are bringing up other issues which I did not address. If you want a response you'll have to clarify where you are coming from and what it is you want. Pardon me, but I don't have a clue.

I was just attempting at the question about now and 60 years ago.

 

[amadeus]

I was just attempting at the question about now and 60 years ago.

What question? That there are differences in people's lives now from what they were 60 years ago or...? Of course there are differences.

What I am doing now is quite different than what I was doing 60 years ago. 60 years ago I was a high school student undecided on what I would do in my future. Now I have been retired for nearly 20 years spending a lot of time at home with my wife.

When I was in high school no one had a personal cell phone or computer. Now I have my own computer and am able to write this to you and fully expect you to be able to read it in less than a minute.

 

[Timtofly]

What question? That there are differences in people's lives now from what they were 60 years ago or...? Of course there are differences.

What I am doing now is quite different than what I was doing 60 years ago. 60 years ago I was a high school student undecided on what I would do in my future. Now I have been retired for nearly 20 years spending a lot of time at home with my wife.

When I was in high school no one had a personal cell phone or computer. Now I have my own computer and am able to write this to you and fully expect you to be able to read it in less than a minute.

The point was between what is sin and what is a right. The cartoon was the claim, all were doing "God’s will". They were not. They were expressing their rights, not doing righteousness.

Now we have flipped where sin is now ok, and God is now considered evil.

 

[amadeus]

The point was between what is sin and what is a right. The cartoon was the claim, all were doing "God’s will". They were not. They were expressing their rights, not doing righteousness.

Now we have flipped where sin is now ok, and God is now considered evil.

Thank you! The cartoon which I have seen several times before was emphasizing what Solomon wrote 3,000 years ago:

"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts." Prov 21:2

On that point people are the same today. People who admit the possibility that they are in error is a good thing to see. It makes them more open to being corrected by God.

I don't think that "we"[whoever "we" are] have to flipped to where "sin is now ok and God is evil". A lot of people, I believe, have always seen it that way, even if they used different words to express it than you have.

What is 'right' as indicated is different to each person with some overlapping between people. Since everyone who has not already overcome the world as Jesus did is a liar, it can be a difficult or impossible thing to decided which right between people is right. Of course, ultimately what matters is what God thinks about a matter. Who knows that exactly on any given issue?

As to sin... did the harlot Rahab sin when she lied about the spies she was hiding? Will she have her part in the lake of fire for her lying as per Rev 21:8

Consider in this that God never changes.

Aren't we glad that we don't have make the final judgement on her?

 

[Timtofly]

Thank you! The cartoon which I have seen several times before was emphasizing what Solomon wrote 3,000 years ago:

"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts." Prov 21:2

On that point people are the same today. People who admit the possibility that they are in error is a good thing to see. It makes them more open to being corrected by God.

I don't think that "we"[whoever "we" are] have to flipped to where "sin is now ok and God is evil". A lot of people, I believe, have always seen it that way, even if they used different words to express it than you have.

What is 'right' as indicated is different to each person with some overlapping between people. Since everyone who has not already overcome the world as Jesus did is a liar, it can be a difficult or impossible thing to decided which right between people is right. Of course, ultimately what matters is what God thinks about a matter. Who knows that exactly on any given issue?

As to sin... did the harlot Rahab sin when she lied about the spies she was hiding? Will she have her part in the lake of fire for her lying as per Rev 21:8

Consider in this that God never changes.

Aren't we glad that we don't have make the final judgement on her?

There is the point about pointing out other's faults with a pointing finger, having 4 fingers pointing back at them.

 

[amadeus]

There is the point about pointing out other's faults with a pointing finger, having 4 fingers pointing back at them.

OK

 

[bbyrd009]

No subject change, we still can choose. Nothing set in stone, unless you do work with cement. But then that takes big equipment and pain to break up. I am sure you know the truth. Objections may grow weary, but let truth shine bright.

yeh, wouldnt say i knew the truth, pretty much everything i say is a lie lol :)

 

[Timtofly]

yeh, wouldnt say i knew the truth, pretty much everything i say is a lie lol :)

Do you mean pretty much everything else you say is a lie. Just trying to clarify that the statement itself was not a lie...

 

[Heart2Soul]

Assuming there is a God, I find it to be the height of arrogance that people assert that they know what God wants.

According to scripture there are many gods...."God" is a noun the defines what He is....Adonai, Yahweh....etc is His name and each name has a specific meaning as to who He is. If you study all His names you will begin to understand Him more.
John 10 (KJV)
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
³² Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
³³ The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
³⁴ Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
³⁵ If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
³⁶ Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

 

[Renniks]

I think about hell different than I once did. Once you get past a certain age you realize how brief life here really is. And no matter how much you love certain aspects of your life, do you realize Solomon was correct when he call it a vapor. The word " Hebel" used in Ecclesiastes and often interpreted vanity, or meaninglessness, more literally is a breath or mist or vapor. It speaks of how short and temporary everything here is.
Now, think of your worst day here on this Earth, and now imagine that day without any good thing existing in this world...I believe that is what hell will be like, but it will be endless. What's it going to matter then if you had a few brief pleasures here? All they will do is taunt you because they were only possible because of God's existence and presence. Now imagine your best day ever, then multiply that about a million times from being released from all the brokenness in this world, due to there being no more curse and being directly in the presence of God. Why would anyone choose hell? Because they thought they might miss out on some temporary pleasurable sin? It's such a lie, but it's so easily sold to the masses.